08-29-2011, 05:35 AM
This thread is in response to a debate in the New Fic Recomendation thread which Necratoid suggested should get its own thread (post 85 @ http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/topic/8306?page=9).
The debate started with Necratoid stating:
I responded:
What follows are the most pertinent portions of his response and my response to them:
Your argument for the active sabotage of Naruto's education is based around a recurring image of him sitting on a swing while strangers look on in disapproval? How does this prove that he was either sabotaged or systematically shunned? The anime and manga also show a young Naruto goofing off with Kiba, Shikimaru and Choji. Wouldn't that be evidence that he wasn't shunned?
He was also close to the hokage and the operators of his favorite ramen stand. If he were being shunned, wouldn't serving him have destroyed their business?
Furthermore, if he were being shunned, wouldn't he have noted Mizuki's complete change of behavior during the academy test (from cold and distant to friendly and concillatory)? Wouldn't Iruka have noticed Mizuki's change in behavior as well? Since neither of them noted a change in behavior, it must be assumed that Mizuki never obviously shunned him. If that were true, wouldn't a desperately lonely Naruto have grafted himself to the side of the teacher that didn't appear to shun him?
And where is your proof that his teachers were training him to the minimum level that they could legally justify? There is no canon indication that the academy teachers did anything to sabotage him, and every indication that his poor performance is because he was a poor student. I distinctly recall seeing flashbacks to Naruto, Kiba, Shikimaru and Choji leaping out a window to cut class. The series starts with Naruto cutting class to paint the hokage monument, and the implication is that him cutting class is a frequent circumstance. Where is your proof that this wasn't the major factor in his failure as a student?
Wrong. To the best of my knowledge, there is no canon proof that Naruto's failure to perform the academy bunshin is due to overloading the jutsu with too much chakra. That appears to be complete fanon. In fact, canon seems to indicate that his problem with jutsu is that he is using too little chakra!
Check out the tree climbing scene from the Land of Wave arc (chapter 18?). Sasuke used too much chakra and splintered the tree bark before being launched away from the tree while Naruto used too little chakra and fell straight down because he failed to stick.
Read the start of Naruto's remedial training with Ebisu (chapter 90?). Ebisu has an informational booklet with cartoon illustrations to provide Naruto with a simplified understanding of chakra usage. According to Ebisu, while Naruto does in fact call up too much chakra while forming jutsu, he is actually pushing less chakra than needed into the final jutsu. As an elite instructor in the ninja arts (and a mouthpiece for the series creator), I'd have to assume that Ebisu is in fact correct.
Naruto's early forays into toad summoning also bear this hypothesis out. He keeps summoning tadpoles, which is what you'd expect from someone who underpowers his jutsu.
Don't you need to develop an elemental affinity before you can create an elemental clone? Isn't developing your first elemental affinity usually something you do when approaching chuunin status? I know that the series indicates that developing a second affinity is normally not done before becoming a jounin. Why would the academy be teaching advanced chuunin techniques to people who are not yet ninja? How is their failure to give a problem student special consideration and advanced chuunin techniques an example of them actively sabotaging his education?
It seems to me that the only evidence you provided for your argument is a flashback image of Naruto feeling lonely and a bunch of unsupported fanon.
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"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV
The debate started with Necratoid stating:
Quote:The main reason Naruto is considered a moron, in the first place/series, is that he had active sabatoge of his traditional education. Naruto had to basically steal his education and only failed as the test was geared towards making Naruto fail.
I responded:
Quote:Really? Can you point me to an official source for this assertion? As I actually sort of like the series, I've watched every single episode that has actually been aired by my local cable provider (up to season 5 of Shippuden) and read most of the manga, but cannot recall any proof that anyone (even Mizuki) actively sabotaged Naruto's education.
What follows are the most pertinent portions of his response and my response to them:
Quote:I'm going with the manga/anime canon as the sorce... that and basic sociology. In fact one of the basic themes of the early show is establishing the active sabatoge of his academy days, as well as his social life in genral. The active sabatoge is describable with a two sylable word: Shunning.
All those flashbacks to Naruto's childhood. All the kids being directed away from Naruto by their parents. All those scenes with him on the swing... completely alone staring miserably at happy children with their happy parents.
Your argument for the active sabotage of Naruto's education is based around a recurring image of him sitting on a swing while strangers look on in disapproval? How does this prove that he was either sabotaged or systematically shunned? The anime and manga also show a young Naruto goofing off with Kiba, Shikimaru and Choji. Wouldn't that be evidence that he wasn't shunned?
He was also close to the hokage and the operators of his favorite ramen stand. If he were being shunned, wouldn't serving him have destroyed their business?
Furthermore, if he were being shunned, wouldn't he have noted Mizuki's complete change of behavior during the academy test (from cold and distant to friendly and concillatory)? Wouldn't Iruka have noticed Mizuki's change in behavior as well? Since neither of them noted a change in behavior, it must be assumed that Mizuki never obviously shunned him. If that were true, wouldn't a desperately lonely Naruto have grafted himself to the side of the teacher that didn't appear to shun him?
Quote:To get back to the active sabatoge of his skills at the academy, the instructers didn't need to 'teach him wrong, you know as a joke!' all they needed to do was give him the minimum they legally could in instruction.
And where is your proof that his teachers were training him to the minimum level that they could legally justify? There is no canon indication that the academy teachers did anything to sabotage him, and every indication that his poor performance is because he was a poor student. I distinctly recall seeing flashbacks to Naruto, Kiba, Shikimaru and Choji leaping out a window to cut class. The series starts with Naruto cutting class to paint the hokage monument, and the implication is that him cutting class is a frequent circumstance. Where is your proof that this wasn't the major factor in his failure as a student?
Quote:The canon reason for bushin failing is he has far too much chakra for it to function. This is something that should be known at some level of the academy... and watched for as this indictes future major player. Naruto isn't the first one with tons of chakra to run through the place... so the only reasons can be stupid instructors or conviently failing to remember this factiod.
Wrong. To the best of my knowledge, there is no canon proof that Naruto's failure to perform the academy bunshin is due to overloading the jutsu with too much chakra. That appears to be complete fanon. In fact, canon seems to indicate that his problem with jutsu is that he is using too little chakra!
Check out the tree climbing scene from the Land of Wave arc (chapter 18?). Sasuke used too much chakra and splintered the tree bark before being launched away from the tree while Naruto used too little chakra and fell straight down because he failed to stick.
Read the start of Naruto's remedial training with Ebisu (chapter 90?). Ebisu has an informational booklet with cartoon illustrations to provide Naruto with a simplified understanding of chakra usage. According to Ebisu, while Naruto does in fact call up too much chakra while forming jutsu, he is actually pushing less chakra than needed into the final jutsu. As an elite instructor in the ninja arts (and a mouthpiece for the series creator), I'd have to assume that Ebisu is in fact correct.
Naruto's early forays into toad summoning also bear this hypothesis out. He keeps summoning tadpoles, which is what you'd expect from someone who underpowers his jutsu.
Quote:The only other explaination is it never occured to the teaching staff that maybe, just maybe they should try teaching him one of the 50 million other types of bushin... I mean Rock Lee passed that portion with after images. Granted it wouldn't be shadow clones, I'm pretty sure that would have killed some random copy catting student and it is restricted for good reason. However, water and earth clones or any over type of clone would have worked just fine.
Don't you need to develop an elemental affinity before you can create an elemental clone? Isn't developing your first elemental affinity usually something you do when approaching chuunin status? I know that the series indicates that developing a second affinity is normally not done before becoming a jounin. Why would the academy be teaching advanced chuunin techniques to people who are not yet ninja? How is their failure to give a problem student special consideration and advanced chuunin techniques an example of them actively sabotaging his education?
It seems to me that the only evidence you provided for your argument is a flashback image of Naruto feeling lonely and a bunch of unsupported fanon.
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"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV