Drunkard's Walk Forums

So, I'm looking to get an entirely new desktop computer. Unfortunately, it's been a while since I've paid any attention at all to hardware specs and the like, especially since I've subsisted on laptops and netbooks for some time now. I've started questioning the great oracle of Google, of course, but...

...I know there's a great deal of collective expertise on the subject here. So, I ask you, the distinguished Drunkard's collective - opinions? Advice?

1. Custom build or off-the-shelf brand name?

I'm not entirely opposed to building my own machine, or getting one custom-made by a local store. But at the same time, I also recall the last time I tried my own upgrades...well, it worked for the next several months. And still technically does work, if you discount the twitchy motherboard and sad-panda'd graphics card. That was in 2004. I don't think I've improved my skills since. 

Conversely, I live in Singapore, and y'know, we're wired to hell and back here. Walk-in service for the big manufacturers is pretty damn excellent. I've had good experiences with Asus and Acer for laptop and netbook stuff. That makes the option tempting - it's a lot more convenient than having to deal with separate warranties for individual parts. But I know damn well I'd get less computer power for my money spent. Is that worth convenience and peace of mind?

In addition, since I'm looking for a new set of everything - monitor, keyboard, OS, whatever, I imagine it won't end up all THAT cost efficient to build from scratch. If I just needed a tower and had OS licenses, that's one thing...but I need the whole kit here...

2. Specifications and value

Right. Presently I use a 2008 Asus laptop. I game, though mostly MMOs and RPGs - City of Heroes, Bioware's stuff, the upcoming SWTOR, and so on. I also dabble in art - but honestly, Elements and CS aren't that intensive and it's been a long while since I've fried something with too many layers and filter effects, so I doubt that's a huge issue.

I was eying a $950-ish Acer package with monitor, keyboard and junk (using US dollars for universal simplicity - but I mean $1200-ish in local currency) with a GeForce GT 530, but I've been told that's not a good deal on the graphics card. I don't know. What do folks think is worth shooting for? I guess I'd be willing to pay about $1000-1500-plus (again, in American). I've shelled far out more in the past for a good laptop, on a far smaller income. But, hey, y'know. I guess I'm getting either financially more prudent or just damn cheaper as I progress further and further away from the hallowed stupid teenage-hood. 

I know some folks favour building monster PCs with a whole lot of future-proofing, but I dunno, I figure one way or the other, with the way technology develops, I'll end up buying something new in a couple or three years anyway. Viva consumerism. 

I know crap-all about processors, and I have no idea what the minimum value of RAM one should settle for these days is, beyond MOAR = GUD.

(A word on cost - again, since I know damn well you folks mostly aren't located in, well, Asia like me, I realise money figures here don't mean much. But component and spec advice could be useful. Shipping generally isn't another cost issue for me; I'm in a big city, anything I do is just gonna be picked up personally and shoved in the back of a car. I just dunno what I should be shoving into said back of car.) 
-- Acyl

My go to site for hardware specifications is Tom's Hardware. It's probably a good place for parts reviews.

I chose to build my own mostly for fun and partially because I wanted to make sure I had plenty of hard disc space. At a guess, if you want an average PC, you'll get a better deal buying it ready made but you save money building a high spec one.

Just make sure the specification is clear. My local computer stores sells PCs with the processor only identified as Intel I5 or I7 (which includes different models with very different specs).

I'm planning on building my first new desktop in several years after Christmas myself, so any and all advice offered in this thread would be very welcome to me, as well.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Cannibalize as much as you can for your new machine if you go the build your own route. But then, that's just normal practical frugality.

Tom's hardware is a good site. I built mine from their budget list.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

Core i7 2500, 8gb ram (recommend 4gb modules), GeForce 560. Asus does an excellent line in motherboards.

I just built a screaming demon of a machine that's almost completely Asus. I ended up with a $2000 price tag, though.

The next question is - to overclock or not to overclock. If you want to OC, you need the 2500k or 2600k processor, which adds about $100 price tag, but is unlocked. Mine, with out-of-the-box settings, is running consistently and stably at 4.3ghz (it's a 3.4ghz chip which boosts to 3.8 stock).

If you're willing to spend money on your CPU cooler, cut out the mid-range crap and get a Corsair H100. It's like watercooling without the suck.

So, to put this in more linear order

Motherboard - Asus p8z68 series - Amazing power handling circuitry, bluetooth onboard, good brand, latest z68 chipset has some interesting features.

http://www.newegg.com/Pro...spx?Item=N82E16813131786

CPU - Intel Core i7 2500 or 2600, 2500k or 2600k if overclocking.

Memory - Corsair pack with heat sinks. Heat sinks are good, and the minor price premium is worth it, IMO. 2 packs puts you at ~$100, 16gb, no upgrades for quite a while.

http://www.newegg.com/Pro...spx?Item=N82E16820233180

Video - Asus GTX560 - Asus carries the same overbuilt power system and excellent cooling system design over to the 'low end' of the current line of GeForce video cards. Add $100 for more performance and more card to go with the 570, or add $250 to go bug nuts crazy on the 580 (I have the 570 - I have lots of happy)

http://www.newegg.com/Pro...spx?Item=N82E16814121425

Hard Drives - You're on your own. Do you want an SSD + HDD combo? A single HDD? A single SSD? An HDD RAID? Intel Smart Response Caching via SSD for your HDD?

Case - http://www.lowes.com/pd_6...62_0__?productId=3195989

REAL MEN BUILD THEIR OWN. HRUAAAAGH!

OK, seriously, I have nothing to contribute to case. I'm using the same lian-li I've had for almost seven years. http://i.imgur.com/AKWQE.jpg

Tom's Hardware is good. I also read HardOCP. I REALLY like their review style.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

Given what you've said, there isn't much to recommend building it from scratch over buying one complete, as long as you can find one that fits your needs. Personally I much prefer to build it solely because I feel that the premade units dont fit me that well.

In addition I dont like how they come pre loaded with junk software I wont be using; that, however, is very much personall opionon/preference
That said...  I'd recommend getting 4gigs of memory minimum, as close to 16 as you feel you can comfortably afford.  Everyone else has covered items that they know better than I.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

I think that if you go to Newegg.com and search their public wish lists for 'Acyl', you should see a list I made of my compy parts. Not sure how long it'll take to publish, though.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

given your past building experience and local support options I'm actually going to recommend you buy pre-built. after looking at what Asus and Acer are charging for their 'gaming' desktops, and what graphics cards they are including in their other towers. I have to flip my recommendation. Those are laughable.

so ya. build your own.
I would also point you towards the hardware leader board on pcper.

Also, don't cheap out on the power supply. Don't buy something massively over spec-ed for your system. But having a crap power supply can cause no end of frustration.

on the topic of over clocking: I wouldn't bother with it
The GTX 560 or 570 should be more than enough graphics card (fully maxed settings in COH and not a stutter in site. actually I lie. you will still see stutters on mothership/hami raids, but that is network related, not graphics card).
8gb ram should be more than enough memory.
-Terry
-----
"so listen up boy, or pornography starring your mother will be the second worst thing to happen to you today"
TF2: Spy

[stuff i wrote got eaten by the bloody browser.]
My specs should be arond here. Basically 2500 cpu with 8gb memory. 8gb is a bit much atm but should do something to future proof it. Hard Disc and GPU to taste.
Everyone REALLY hates no brand power supplies.
Low end PCs seem to have reasonable prices. The price increases a lot faster than the specification does.
I DON'T recommend canibalisation. Old and low spec components and having your current PC non working are not, IMHO, a good combination.

Quote:8gb ram should be more than enough memory.

Don't listen to Dr. Bill Gates, here. 640k is not enough for everyone.

the big driver for 16gb vs 8gb is that ddr3, even ddr3 1600, is dirt cheap right now, and the difference between 8gb (4x2gb), 8gb (2x4gb), and 16gb (4x4gb) can be less than $100. The decision to throw 16gb of premium ddr3 in now is a lot easier to justify when you're talking $40 vs. $110.

Of note, though, is that going that next step _up_ to 32gb, quadruples the pricing or worse... O_o

Sweno is pretty much 100% correct on everything else, in my opinion. Though I would probably over-spec the power supply more. I loathe running things at 100% rated capacity.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

The only thing I have to say on the matter is, three out of five support guys I asked while looking for a laptop told me flat out, "Never buy an Acer." How and whether that applies to a desktop in SIngapore rather than a lappie in the US is up for debate, but it's a pretty strong condemnation in my mind.

- CD
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

My advise to the melting pot:

Don't skimp on the power supply.

Don't skimp on the power supply.

Don't skimp on the power supply.

Heard me yet?

If you do your calculations and 500W power supply is enough, go put a 650W in, or better yet, a 750W. Power supplies use to deregulate as the components in them age. Its one of those pesky laws of physics and electronics that I don't think they've quite gotten around to breaking yet.

@kokuten: I'm honestly curious, what are you running that requires more than 8 gigs?

I've only got 4 gig in my system and I can still run Steam, CoH, firefox, mids, skype, and a few other apps without running into thrashing problems.

I would recommend getting 2x4GB sticks. If you find yourself running into situations where you need more, then sure, get two more sticks. But I doubt that will come up in any time soon, and in that time the price will have fallen even more. Sure it only costs another $50, but that is $50 that can be put towards other stuff (like a nice case with good cable management)
-Terry
-----
"so listen up boy, or pornography starring your mother will be the second worst thing to happen to you today"
TF2: Spy

I'm running confidence. with 16gb of matched memory onboard, I'm not likely to have to mess with it.. ever.

Also, I've played around with Ramdrive stuff, and some 5gb+ texture packs for fallout. Minecraft can eat a gig of ram all by itself.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

Foxboy Wrote:Cannibalize as much as you can for your new machine if you go the build your own route. But then, that's just normal practical frugality.

That heavily depends on your budget. I have done that in the past, but usually it's better to just buy all new stuff if you are going to be spending above 750$ and you computer is at least two years old.

Never reuse power supplies though that is a recepie for disaster.

What you need to know about processors; If you plan to upgrade the processor independently in 2-3 years and keep the rest of the computer then buy intel (and first do some reading on the CPU socket, intel has too many varieties and they switch them too readily.), otherwise with your budget you are better of with an AMD processor. Until you go over 1000$ on just the computer without peripherals AMD will still get you more bang for the buck. That is changing because AMD is lagging behind if fabbing tech, and their new bulldozer architecture is going to face a few hard years, but those chips are not on the market yet.

It makes a lot of sense to budget IO devices like mouse, keyboard and monitor separately, since those will usually last you a decade or more and they will be your primary interface to the computer. When I did my latest computer upgrade I also replaced my old stuff, and I spent roughly half my budget on it. A nice gaming quality mouse is around 50$ to 100$ and it is so very worth it.

With your budget I'd say to set aside at least 500$ on IO devices. Most of that is going to be for the monitor, and 1920x1080 LCD monitors are cheap because that is TV size, you probably want a bright LCD with a good contrast ratio and a fast response time. Anything slower than 5ms is worthless, and if the measurement is Grey to Grey the measurement is worthless since it will not tell you much about the monitor performance. The different ways of measuring contrast ratio can differ by 3 or more orders of magnitude, so be sure you are comparing apples to apples.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

Ah, yes, that is absolute - don't get cheap crap for your keyboard and mouse. A cheap keyboard will usually see the letters wear off with a couple years of use and may start popping off keys, espescially if dropped a couple times, I've also had better luck with not getting irregular keystrokes from a few crumbs trapped under the keys with Logitech rather than Elcheapo. Likewise, the difference between a cheap mouse and a good mouse (both optical) is not having to use a mousepad on my metal desk, or a knee, or the arm of an upholstered chair, and buttons that are neither mushy nor over-stiff. Again I say Logitech, or IBM - IBM makes some keyboards with absolutely spectacular feel to the action, in a way that makes a surprising difference when you need to do a lot of typing. It's like wearing a good shoe versus and adequate one for running in. I carried an IBM trackpoint-equipped keyboard around in my book bag when I was doing programming classes, and everyone looked at me funny until I let them try using it, then they wanted to get one of their own

- CD
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

Jumping back in here to say: many thanks to everyone who's offered advice, particularly Wire, Sweno and others who've made specific notes on components and such.

With that in mind - and the knowledge I am getting a bonus this year, however small - I've pretty much decided to assemble a machine, whether I do that entirely myself or with some store assistance. I'll probably bounce back here if I have any further questions...for now, just digesting what's been recommended and working out precisely how much I should spend, within budget, or possibly over.
In particular - I'd actually almost forgotten, but I did work up a mostly-Asus desktop (case, motherboard, and I think graphics) in, hell, I dunno, 2006? When I was at college. Low-performance even for the time, because I didn't expect to last. Ended up running amazingly until I gave it away this year (rather than, y'know, ship home). See, MOST of my scratch-build and self-upgrading experiences have been terribad, but that thing? That thing and my Asus laptop have been amazing. So, yeah. I know how good it is as a base. Not gonna go cheap on those components.
-- Acyl

Here's what I ended up going with, if anyone's curious, based largely on Wire's recommendation on the motherboard and RAM:-

CPU: Intel i7-2600k
MB: Asus P8768-V Pro
GPU: Asus Nvidia GeForce GTX 560
RAM: 4 x Corsair 4 gb/1600 Vengeance DDR3
HDD: Western Digital 1.5 TB
Disc Drive: LG 24x DVDRW
Case: Cooler Master/Nvidia 960 II
PSU: Cooler Master GX 750W

Total Cost: USD$1,225

Here's what I discovered - the processor, motherboard and graphics card were significantly cheaper for me in Singapore. I suspect because they're all of Asian manufacture. Conversely, the Corsair RAM cost me more, since that stuff is actually made the United States, and therefore becomes a premium import here. But on reflection I figured it was worth it.

The store I'm using also does setup help and free walk-in troubleshooting for three years. I've bought hardware from these guys twice before, some years ago, so I was pleased to find out they were still in business. I'll be picking up my stuff tomorrow, plus all the necessary extras like Windows 7, a new monitor, peripherals...though I'm vaguely considering calling ahead in the morning to see if I can throw a little more down for a GTX 570 instead of a 560.
-- Acyl

I would, if I were you and I could.  There are things you can skimp on- you can buy a decently small hard drive, for example, and add more storage later, or build a computer with 4GB RAM, and add to taste.  Some things, like processors, it actually makes good sense to buy good-but-not-best.  I buy AMD chips, myself, because I get most of the performance of a top-end Intel chip for half the cost or less.
Thing is, with graphics cards, buying big is usually just as good a plan as any, if not better.
Look at your options.  You can buy a basic to midrange card (like a Geforce 520-560) and plan on replacing it in X number of years, or do the same thing, and plan on adding a second (and maybe third) one later.  The upside is that you pay less up front, and you can improve on your rig when you need to.  You lose on performance (which isn't as big a deal for you- like you said, CoH and the like aren't graphics hogs), but you also face more problems with compatibility.  Back when I used SLI, I found myself either trolling forums to find SLI profiles for new games, or waiting for new drivers.  Heck, I just built a rig at work, benchmarked it, and then dropped a second graphics card in it for laughs.  It actually performed WORSE than it did with one card, most likely because the benchmarking software wasn't built to handle more than one.  It can also be hard to find another card like yours when the time comes, especially if you bought one pre-overclocked.
If you buy a bigger card, you pay more right now.  You also get a better gaming rig right now, and down the road.  I bought a GTX 280 back in July 2008, when it came out.  Almost three and a half years later, it still can play nearly anything I get at high settings.  I could probably get another year out of it, if I wanted to, and I have high standards.  A 260 wouldn't give me that sort of longevity.
Really, you can do well either way, but I think the best way to get value for money is to buy the biggest card you can, and use it until it doesn't do the job any longer.

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

Whoever's ahead for CPU stakes at the present time changes periodically. Acording to the reviews I've found, the Intels are currently best value for money, especially at the higher end. This will, of course, change.

Jinx999 Wrote:Whoever's ahead for CPU stakes at the present time changes periodically. According to the reviews I've found, the Intels are currently best value for money, especially at the higher end. This will, of course, change.

Presumably, but AMD is behind intel on fabbing tech and their current architecture is far inferior performance wise (there are reasons for that, most of them having to do with streamlining AMD's design processes) which means that with the same number of transistors AMD will have lower yields and less performance than an equivalent intel chip, which in turn means intel will be able to undercut AMD while still taking big profits in. Or intel could keep their prices at a premium and just make more profit per chip. This doesn't apply so much to current chips, but when Ivy Bridge is on the market and begins to displace older chips, so late 2012 or so, unless AMD has some serious aces up it's sleeve.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

I, personally, will never buy from Intel because of the dirty marketing ploys the employed to undercut AMD in the first place.

http://news.cnet.com/AMD-...2100-1001_3-5765844.html

Old news, I know, but something worthy of a grudge as far as reputations go.

CattyNebulart Wrote:

Jinx999 Wrote:Whoever's ahead for CPU stakes at the present time changes periodically. According to the reviews I've found, the Intels are currently best value for money, especially at the higher end. This will, of course, change.

Presumably, but AMD is behind intel on fabbing tech and their current architecture is far inferior performance wise (there are reasons for that, most of them having to do with streamlining AMD's design processes) which means that with the same number of transistors AMD will have lower yields and less performance than an equivalent intel chip, which in turn means intel will be able to undercut AMD while still taking big profits in. Or intel could keep their prices at a premium and just make more profit per chip. This doesn't apply so much to current chips, but when Ivy Bridge is on the market and begins to displace older chips, so late 2012 or so, unless AMD has some serious aces up it's sleeve.

Well, Intel just released their Sandybridge-E processors for the enthusiast crowd, at ~$550 and ~$900. They aren't going to cut their profits to kill AMD it seems. It's just that their $200 parts (Sandybridge 2500K Core i5) it as better than AMD's best processor atm. (At least, for the knids of programs most people run.) I'm hoping that AMD's revision of their chips (due early next year, say March) makes a lot of improvements.
  

the $200 parts kick the pants off of most anything AMD has out in most any application.

Their _$400_ parts (i2600k) with agressive cooling can overclock into the damn stratosphere and blow anything AMD has available out of the water..

blows my feeble little mind - I'm running 4.3ghz on a chip that comes out of the box at 3.2. that's insane.
"No can brain today. Want cheezeburger."
From NGE: Nobody Dies, by Gregg Landsman
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5579457/1/NGE_Nobody_Dies