Drunkard's Walk Forums

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Oh my - where to start, where to start...
Well, overall impressions -
Big fight. Big BIG fight. Very well written. Very clear throughout.
I had no trouble at all visualizing all the action that was happening, with the possible exception of a couple of the knife moves made by Hexe. I parsed the fight between her and Sylia just fine overall, but had trouble visualizing exact arm and hand positions sometimes. A quick reread solved most of that.
I was right about the power level of the Warriors. They are definitely in Justice League territory. And it puts some of my issues with Doug's Fuzion character sheet in perspective. (I still don't think he should have higher than a 12 DEX, though. Tongue

)
Speaking of power levels - Imagine the Justice League - but trained specifically as soldiers and agents and with that kind of mindset. Imagine a SEAL team given superpowers. That's the Warriors. Yikes....
(On that note - now I'm curious - intensely curious - as to the stats of the other Warriors. Heck, just post or send me the V&V characters stats and I can do conversions of them!)
As to all the Warriors - I'd love to know more about them! I know you don't have the time to do Warriors stories on top of everything else, and these characters are not your own, so I'll just send my compliments to you, as the writer, for portraying them here and making me interested in them in such a short space of time, and to their creators and players for coming up with some truly neat concepts! Shadowwalker and Kat both got time earlier in DW2 and Hexe got an extended scene here, so the only member here that we've seen in "person" now that hasn't gotten as much conversation time was Silverbolt. Perhaps we'll get to see her again at some future time? Heck, Dwimanor has been mentioned enough I'd love to see him. Maybe he might pop up in the (proposed) Sailor Moon step? Yes, I'm an evil evil man.... ^_^
LOVED the entrances of the Warrior's too. Especially Hexe and Silverbolt. "Your entrance was good, his was better. The difference? Showmanship!" ^_^
Madigan's thought - *Damn him! That man is chaos incarnate!* - Why do I get the distinct impression that more than one villain in the Warrior's universe has said that exact same line on more than one occasion? ^_^
The storm and lightning strike - why do I get the impression that Hexe has a presence that makes some minor villains just wet themselves? Important safety tip: Do NOT make this woman truly mad at you...
Daley heard Leon mention Priss' name. He's no more clueless than Leon is. I expect him to start putting 2+2 together as well soon.
Lisa's "Warrior's World" memories getting stronger with the entrance of the Warriors simulacrums - that was a bit of an unexpected twist. How'd you come up with that? And does that happen with everyone that Doug has done that song for?
Speaking of which - I take it that Doug has done that song for himself? Did it have the same effects on him? I think he mentions that he notices something new every time he does it. Can he - in effect - get some limited postcognitive knowledge of things he was never personally around for during the duration of time that the song speaks to? The 50 years or so from the end of WWII to the end of the 20th century, I mean.
A great deal of the apparent ease with which the Warriors mostly have this fight appears to come from the fact that the Sabers don't really know what they're up against. If they did, they could compensate better, obviously. They still wouldn't match them for power level, but it's possible they could do reasonably well, even if the Warriors went all out. But I think if that happened, people would die on both sides. The element of surprise is one which the Warriors in this instance OWN.
Shadowwalker's sonic attack - wow. That was some very nice description there, Bob. Wow.
Just how strong is Silverbolt anyway? Every time I thought I had a rough estimate of her strength, she exceeded it. Sorry to go to game terms here, but by the end of the fight I was estimating her at Fuzion STR 16 or 17. Maybe as high as 18.

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"Nay, nay, report!"

- Heh. Interesting that he thought that a "startling archaicism" when that's actually her name.
Nice to give Linna a cool, mostly non-violent take-down of Kat. And even cooler to have them talking about it afterword.
Leg bombers though? I thought those were Priss' weapons? Okay okay - 5th generation suits and all and mixing the weapons up and all that. It does make sense for Linna to use the bombers on her legs as well as her power arm. I really shouldn't be complaining about this at this stage. ^_^
I really liked her restraint as well. Of all the Sabers, Linna seems the most in control of herself at this point.
Nene's sampling and countering of Shadowwalker's sonar was perfect. Did she ever get 100% effect on her though? It seemed like Shadowwalker was still able to operate fairly effectively.

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Her opponent recognized her ploy, and smiled as she released Sylia's weapon again. "You'll have to do *much* better than that, White. These blades were forged for me by Hephaestus from mithril mined by the Svartalfar, breathed upon by Indra and blessed by Marduk."

Say - what pantheon is Hexe supposedly from anyway?

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In a Place that was not a place, Three Beings watched.
"Is that...?" asked One whose Voice was as that of a child.
"Yes," replied another, whose Voice was as the chiming of bells. "Yes, it is."
"So that is what the Stormsdaughter has been doing with Herself these past few decades," murmured the Third, whose Voice would have been deemed sultry by any mortals who might have heard it.
"Ssshh!" hissed the First. "You're missing all the action!"

Despite your description of who this is and their surroundings, I can't help but think of Belldandy, Urd and Skuld all sitting in front of a big screen TV with Skuld munching on a big old tub of Ice Cream. (Chuckle)
Despite the mismatch in strength, I think Priss is giving a good accounting of herself in her fight with Silverbolt. Surprising, really. And not, when you think about it. This is, after all, the woman who took on four hyperboomers and Largo (mostly) on her own.

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The silver woman casually grabbed the back end of a car and lifted. When the bumper came off in her hand, she dropped it,

I wonder, was she expecting to be able to lift the whole thing at once, here? And surprised when it didn't happen? Real world physics versus comic book physics! Actually, I suspect that's more of a nod by you to the convention actually then a mistake that Silverbolt would make.
Much has already been made of the one scene between Silverbolt and Leon, so I'll skip that here, except to say that I was as amused by it as everyone esle was.

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A red haze seemed to drop over Nene's eyes. A low, growling voice filled her ears, and only dimly did she recognize it as her own. A distant cry didn't even register. "I'm... *not*... going to let you... win!" she ground out through gritted teeth as she drew back her fist for another punch.

And now we get to the somewhat disturbing part - Nene going berserk. I'd say that this isn't in character - except that you've spent the last few chapters building up to this and showing how very much in character for this permutation of Nene this is. A BGC fan coming in cold on this chapter by itself would definitely have a "WTF??" moment at the scene of Nene laying the smack down on Shadowwalker, but in context it makes sense. Nene isn't angry at Shadowwalker or Doug. She's angry at herself more. She has a very manichean viewpoint on her world and having her morality questioned is as much of a shock to her psyche as Sylia's assumptions of the reality of the physical world being questioned by Doug's (and the Warriors) powers. Perhaps even more so. Sylia is a scientist. Once she gets over her shock at the fact that the laws of physics are not as absolute as she thought, she can start to question rationally why this is so and come to grips with it, forming a new hypothesis and workign framework for her reality. Nene on the other hand, is discovering shadings to the moral questions surrounding her that aren't so neatly qualified. You're also putting her in the position that Lisa was put into in regards to confronting her own capacity for viciousness. And it's just as much of a shock for her as it was for Lisa. This is the most tense conflict in this chapter and for good reason.
(And the scene later aboard the Knightwing with Nene proves that she's not as lost as she might herself think. When you can question what you've done, you aren't evil. As you yourself have mentioned in another thread. (Harry Potter story fragment I think))

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With the loss of power her visor had reverted to clear plasteel,

Technical question - shouldn't her outside visor flip up instead? I don't recall the outside visor ever going "clear" like this. If the Hardsuit's visor goes out, they flip it up. They still have a clear faceplate inside.
Doug's state of mind in confronting Nene is almost as intense as Nene's going up against Maggie. But with Doug it's more expected and less of a shock.

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"" she heard Wetter Hexe bellow from where she loomed over Sylia. Impossibly, the thunder from the sky above roared the English words with her. "
In the plaza before the entrance to Geo City, the forces of the AD Police, the news crews, and the onlookers all froze as one when the distant thunder suddenly formed into English words that rang clearly across the square: ""
"

Now THIS is what is known in Champions as a PRESENCE ATTACK! I'd say she starts with a PRE of about 25 for 5d6 to start with, plus several dice added for appropriate use of powers, violent action, approriate locale, etc, etc. Add... add... of I'd say she easily gets about 14-15d6 of PRE Attack off of that. No wonder many of the ADP guys are groveling!
Sorry. Game geeking for a moment there. ^_^

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Nene stifled another cry at the sight -- she had deduced that Sangnoir's wife was blind, but...
The woman had no eyes. Nor could she ever have had any.
Not with two glistening patches of fine, silvery grey fur growing on the smooth, flat skin that took their place.

Okay, I have to know what's the story behind this. I figure a mutation of some sort. But does the fur actually have anything to do with her senses? Did she grow up this way? How did it affect her life? Seems like it would look _very_ disturbing. She must wear sunglasses all the time.

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I stared at her a moment, then sneered. "The luxury of letting slaves try to make a better life for themselves?"
"The luxury of saving them at the expense of the lives of
others." Her voice and posture were hard at first, then softened as she spread her hands wide. "What else would you have me do?"
I didn't have an answer for that. I was still wrestling with
with that dilemma myself.

Yup. Heart of the dilemna there. Very nicely done.

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Inside the Hexe-shaped energy construct was the unmistakable golden glow of a soul. And inside *that*... Inside that was a triple helix of colored energies -- blue, green and red -- that I'd only ever seen in Hexe and a few other beings. The signature aura of an incarnated deity.
"Ho. Ly. Shit," I swore under my breath. "It *is* you."

And that was about my reaction as well. Very nice way to bring one of the real Warriors in unexpectedly.

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In a Place that was not a place, a Fourth momentarily appeared to Three who watched.
"Honored Aunts, once Your bargain with him is complete, kindly
*butt the hell out.*"
Then She vanished.

Well, this is getting rather long. I'll have more commentary in return to comments back.
-Logan

> Yup. Heart of the dilemna there. Very nicely done.
*blush*
Blessed be.
-n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

Logan, thanks for the extensive commentary. I can't answer it all right now -- maybe later tonight. A couple quick things:
1) I'll have to ask the players if I may post their sheets or share them with you.
2) I can't find Silverbolt's character sheet at the moment (damn, I need to clean up the library), but if I recall correctly, she has a V&V Carry Capacity somewhere in the vicinity of 12.5 tons. Don't take that as gospel until I can confirm it.
3) And Nathan definitely deserves kudos for summing up the central conflict of philosophies so well -- especially when I couldn't do as good a job.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

> 3) And Nathan definitely deserves kudos for summing up
>the central conflict of philosophies so well -- especially
>when I couldn't do as good a job.
As pleased as I am with it, I can't take the credit entire - Sylia's last line is quoted from... Arg. It was one of Dave Weber's and Steve White's Starfire collaborations... In Death Ground, I think.
Some evacuees are cussing out a Marine and he's wishing he could ask them that.
I pretty much wrote the exchange leading up to it.
Blessed be.
-n
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

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I really liked her restraint as well. Of all the Sabers, Linna seems the most in control of herself at this point.

It makes sense, especially when you see that out of the Sabers, Linna is the only one who's really taking the time to think about Doug's accusations.
Sylia is utterly convinced that she's Right, Doug's Wrong and no man, meta or god is going to stand between her and her conclusions. For somebody as ostensibly rational as Sylia, that's one hell of a blind spot.
Priss, obviously, is channeling her own inner doubts about boomers into that pure, unadulterated rage that we BGC otaku know and love about her. ^_^
Nene, right up to the end of the chapter at least, was running on that particular brand of rage that comes when some wiseass shatters deeply-held beliefs without anesthetic. Like you said, Nene is very manichean in her outlook, and (from my personal experience, at least) people with definite views tend to lash out pretty hard at people who disrupt their worldview.
So when three of the four Sabers are fighting mad...
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

Wonderful, just wonderful. I sat down and reread the entire story first though so I defently can say your doing an exelent job. I was wondering about Lisa's reactions to the two times she has had Doug use his metagift on her. Is her reaction normal or are you planning somthing down the line, like that one line that doug said about power calling to power?
Oh hte relivent Quotes:
Chapter 7
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The power stumbled in its whispering song, as if puzzled by her
thoughts. It almost dissolved into cacophony, but rallied itself
and, if anything, increased in intensity. Here, it said to her,
here is how to do it. You are the first to ask.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 7
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I was less troubled by her fashion sense than by where the hell that damned outfit had come from. "Invisible Touch" was only supposed to give her simple TK -- a defensive shield and a ranged attack. Enough to keep her alive if anything went after her. That's the way it had always worked before. It had never done anything like this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 12
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One other major concern preyed upon her mind: in the presence of the Warriors, the memories from Doug's homeworld were growing more and more intrusive. Worse, they seemed to be becoming an increasingly seamless part of her own memories, frightening in the level of detail available to her most casual consultation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chapter 12
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Hexe then leaned down, and as she had for Doug, brushed her lips across the girl's forehead. "My blessing upon you, too, girl." A disturbing edge seemed to slide into the goddess' smile.
"You'll need it."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Is her reaction normal or are you planning somthing down the line, like that one line that doug said about power calling to power?

No matter what I might say in response to this, it would be a spoiler of one degree or another. So I'll just say you'll have to wait and see.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Sorry buddy, but that spoiler comment gives it away that we hit some sort of pay dirt.

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Sorry buddy, but that spoiler comment gives it away that we hit some sort of pay dirt.

Actually, it's not. After all, if he denies it he could be pointing at something else, and if he confirms it he might be spoiling other stuff too. In the case of a binary question, the only answer that isn't a spoiler is "Mu"...
And in the name of "Truth In Advertising" I will admit that I know the real answer to the question, but I'm not telling [Image: smile.gif]

Offsides (who's feeling snarky tonight [Image: smile.gif]

)Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large

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And in the name of "Truth In Advertising" I will admit that I know the real answer to the question, but I'm not telling

There are certain advantages to being a prereader, ain't there?

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

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Sylia is utterly convinced that she's Right, Doug's Wrong and no man, meta or god is going to stand between her and her conclusions. For somebody as ostensibly rational as Sylia, that's one hell of a blind spot.

A quick comment while I'm going over this page the next morning. The following is something one of my prereaders suggested. I'm not sure I'm going to follow this line of reasoning in the story -- it's not necessary for what remains of the plot -- but it's certainly a great idea. As many of you may well know, in June 2000 it was confirmed by one of the high-ups in Animeigo that both Sylia and Mackie have boomer brain augmentation (see this posting at Google Groups). What if kindly ol' Doc Stingray programmed his daughter for revenge, using that circuitry and the data cartridge that dumped so much other stuff into her 10-year-old brain? What if she isn't allowed to question her crusade?
And will whatever Doug does to free the boomers work on her?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

How does one become a pre-reader, pray tell? [Image: smile.gif]

-Z
----
If architects built buildings the way programmers write programms, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization.
-Z, Post-reader at Medium
----
If architects built buildings the way programmers write programs, the first woodpecker to come along would destroy civilization.

You have to wait for one of the current ones to die.
Seriously? Be someone I know and whose literary judgment I trust, or who's sent me lots of good commentary in email (even if I didn't like it). Or be a Warrior. (Hi, Helen!)

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

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What if kindly ol' Doc Stingray programmed his daughter for revenge, using that circuitry and the data cartridge that dumped so much other stuff into her 10-year-old brain? What if she isn't allowed to question her crusade?

Didn't Chris Davies use something like this in his Together Again series?
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

Did he? I'll have to go back and read it; it's been at least four or five years since Chris wrote the last part that I'm aware of.
Oh, that reminds me! Chris wrote a couple of cameos for us into TA -- the first is in the last part of the 1996 section, an off-the-cuff mention of Silverbolt:

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MCGOVERN
Any way, he decided that you were
his choice to head up the PDF, after
he ... well, you know. BEAT And
even if I thought he'd screwed up
badly, you'll probably do better
than the UN's choice. She's this
Greek woman who can fling lightning
bolts big enough to make your Sailor
Jupiter feel insecure. She's a good
soldier, but not quite my pick to
defend the Earth from all threats,
native and alien.

(Peg's not too happy with that, as it's Sailor Moon who's being told she's the better candidate. Peggy has some serious problems with Sailor Moon and her competence. )
The other is in one of the chapters to the unfinished "Silver Millenium" part. Look for the bookshop owner and his wife who knows a lightning spell...

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

I think so -- it's been a while since I read 'em, too. IIRC he makes a mention of it in the Crystal Tokyo chapter and expands on it in side stories.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

Okay, let's try this again. I made an attempt at replying to this last night around 10:30 EST, but something that I haven't fully figured out happened and my system locked up completely; I lost what I wrote. Let me see if I can reconstruct it.

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Very well written. Very clear throughout.

Thanks. Given that I spent 13 months writing about ten minutes' worth of action, I'd hope the ratio of time spent to time depicted means every individual word was optimally chosen...

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I had no trouble at all visualizing all the action that was happening, with the possible exception of a couple of the knife moves made by Hexe. I parsed the fight between her and Sylia just fine overall, but had trouble visualizing exact arm and hand positions sometimes.

Well, maybe you can come by one night and we'll have Helen's husband Attila demonstrate all those moves on you the way he demonstrated them on me. Along with an injured finger, I got a rather comprehensively kinesthetic sense of the action between the two.

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I was right about the power level of the Warriors. They are definitely in Justice League territory.

I think you're overpraising us there, but we definitely have fielded individual JLA-level talents.

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On that note - now I'm curious - intensely curious - as to the stats of the other Warriors. Heck, just post or send me the V&V characters stats and I can do conversions of them!

To tell you the truth, Peggy's hesitant about sharing her characters. And the others, well, I sent them emails pointing them to this review, but none of them have gotten back to me yet.

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As to all the Warriors - I'd love to know more about them!

Well, I can promise you a "Mouseketeer roll call" of Warriors members in the last chapter, so you'll at least learn the names of many past and present Warriors. (I was quite surprised when I figured out just how many there actually had been, even given that some of us had played in two or more of the subsidiary campaigns.)

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I know you don't have the time to do Warriors stories on top of everything else,

God knows it's not like we haven't tried. Somewhere, someone still has the pencils from the Warriors comic book we tried to do in the mid-80s. There have been other short stories featuring Warriors, but their authors are not so stupid as I to go and put them up where other people can see them. I've even considered trying to market a Warriors cartoon (going to far as to start to storyboard the opening animation for kicks). A former Warriors player from the late 80s is now a reasonably big name in TV (I'd cite some of his credits, but anyone reasonably adept with the IMDB could figure him out that way, and I don't want him bothered by overenthusiastic DW fans) and I've mentioned the idea to him. Unsuccessfully, though.

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and these characters are not your own, so I'll just send my compliments to you, as the writer, for portraying them here and making me interested in them in such a short space of time, and to their creators and players for coming up with some truly neat concepts!

Thank you, and I'll pass along your compliments to their intended recipients. I just want to mention that making those concepts work is harder than you might think -- V&V is a random-generation system, and a player has a major challenge on his hands assembling a reasonable theme for a character with a bunch of apparently unrelated powers... (V&V is also an explicitly self-insert game -- the rules require that your first character be you with powers!) Above and beyond that, though, I think what you're reacting to is the fact that these characters all have 15 years or so of living history behind them, informing all their actions and dialogue even when it isn't really "visible" onscreen. They've lived, grown, faced challenges both personal and global, experienced success, experienced failure, gain, loss, and in some cases grew from teenager to mature adult over that span. There's a weight to that and it'd be impossible for me not to write them without that influence.

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so the only member here that we've seen in "person" now that hasn't gotten as much conversation time was Silverbolt. Perhaps we'll get to see her again at some future time?

Not in DW2, unfortunately. And at the moment the plots for the other Steps don't have too much call for simulacra (Doug takes Hexe's warning to heart, too). However... can you imagine the reaction of Gendo Ikari and the Central Dogma Bridge Bunnies to a manifestation of Hexe or Silverbolt taking on an Angel?

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Heck, Dwimanor has been mentioned enough I'd love to see him. Maybe he might pop up in the (proposed) Sailor Moon step?

Well, if you don't mind a magical mentor who's only around for 3 minutes a day. Otherwise, well, he's not one of the front line Warriors. ("What's his simulacrum song?" I'm sure you're asking. "Magic Man" by Heart.)

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"Your entrance was good, his was better. The difference? Showmanship!"

I know that's a quote from something, but what? I can't place it.

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Madigan's thought - *Damn him! That man is chaos incarnate!* - Why do I get the distinct impression that more than one villain in the Warrior's universe has said that exact same line on more than one occasion?

Because it's accurate without being literally true? Arcanum, the campaign's central big bad for many many years, once harassed the Warriors by publishing a book of tactics that could be used against them; the number one rule in there for anyone going into combat against us was "Take down Looney Toons, fast and hard". Because you never know what he's going to come up with to screw up your plans.

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why do I get the impression that Hexe has a presence that makes some minor villains just wet themselves?

I wouldn't know. We haven't fought a minor villain in years...

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Important safety tip: Do NOT make this woman truly mad at you...

That's good advice even for the villains.

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Lisa's "Warrior's World" memories getting stronger with the entrance of the Warriors simulacrums - that was a bit of an unexpected twist. How'd you come up with that?

Kind of by accident, actually. I needed Lisa to remember a specific detail from Warriors' World for something that happens in chapter 13 -- nothing big, you'll know it when you see it -- so she was always intended to have some retention -- after all, what would be the point of the effect if you didn't remember at least something? And so I set that up with her comments to Leon about memories in the scene where the two of them are talking in the conference room at the 16 Times. Many months later, I began to write the big fight for chapter 12. And after a few non-Warriors prereaders expressed a certain amount of confusion about who was who, I realized we needed some way of giving the readers extra info that Doug would know, but would have no real reason to be thinking about during the fight. And Lisa was there, already prepped with Warriors' World memories. It just became a matter of expanding the scope of those memories so the reader had a "scorecard" that he could use to tell the players apart -- someone with an "intimate outsider"'s point of view, if that makes any sense.
And that's all there is to Lisa's WW memories -- and to Hexe's toning them down afterwards. Despite the theories flying in another thread, they're not the key to some secret power slumbering inside Lisa; they were just a useful narrative device. Of course, now that I've intensified them to use them in that way, I have to deal with the implications as they rise in later chapters; and no, except for one specific implication that you will see in chapter 13, I haven't figured out what all of those will be. If there are any more.

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And does that happen with everyone that Doug has done that song for? Speaking of which - I take it that Doug has done that song for himself? Did it have the same effects on him?

Some of that will have to be answered later -- another case of any honest answer I can provide will give something away about the story. However, to tell you the absolute (minimum) truth, this song exists as a power only in the story; it's one that doesn't have a history in the campaign. What Doug says during that scene was all I knew of the song at the time I wrote. Of course, in the months since, I've been thinking about it more, especially how to justify it to a GM who isn't me, so I know more about it now. But I may use what I've figured out as a plot point in chapter 14, so I don't want to say any more. Okay?

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If (the Sabers knew what they were up against), they could compensate better, obviously. They still wouldn't match them for power level, but it's possible they could do reasonably well, even if the Warriors went all out. But I think if that happened, people would die on both sides.

You're probably right. As it is, I certainly had the Sabers fighting below par; they could have done even better. Case in point: Dave Menard sent me an email last night which pointed out that Sylia -- once she realized that melee wasn't doing the job -- should have retreated to a distance and opened up with her lasers. He's right. Of course, there's nowhere on the face of the planet that she could retreat to for sniping that Hexe couldn't get to at almost the same moment, but that's irrelevant. I wrote Sylia as less intelligent than she should have been.

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Shadowwalker's sonic attack - wow. That was some very nice description there, Bob. Wow.

Thank you. I actually wrote that passage almost four years ago, and have been waiting for the right place to plug it into the story. One of the things I wanted to do was show super powers in a "realistic" way (in as far as that was possible). The "science" in that description was one of my efforts toward that end.
And since we're on that topic, or close to it... Fairly early on I decided I wanted to let people see a little of the other Warriors, and the simulacra evolved as a way to do that. (No, he didn't have any Warriors simulacra songs in-game before that. He does now. ) After that, it was just a matter of deciding who I wanted to show. I originally had plotted two different scenes with simulacra in combat -- one featuring Shadowwalker, the other Hexe (Hexe being really there was part of it from the start). But along about chapter 5 I realized that would be repetitive and possibly even annoying for the reader. So, I decided, only one combat with simulacra in it. Which ones? And against who?
I had long known at that point that Doug and the Sabers would be having serious philosophical differences. (I mean, really... Warriors' World is really liberal about non-human sentients -- if the forgotten stuff in the back of your fridge moves, it has a decent chance of getting provisional citizenship and basic rights. Of course Doug will have a problem with the BGC world, and its heroic enforcers.) And I knew he'd have to face off against them somehow, if only for the symbolic value. I also knew that against the Sabers in a stand-up fight, Doug would quickly end up lying down. In a pool of blood. Well, at that point, it all came together. As Nene's arc developed, I threaded that into the fight as well. And from there it just sort of fell together while at the same growing. Thus it is that we now have chapter 12. Does that make any sense?

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Just how strong is Silverbolt anyway?

Peggy confirmed that I was in the right ballpark. Silverbolt's carry capacity is approximately 25,500 pounds, or 12.75 tons.
(V&V carry capacity is a calculated quantity that can often be humorously specific: "I can lift 3,427.15 lbs, and no more!" Just to be pedantic, it's ((Strength / 10)^3 + (Endurance / 10)) * (body weight / 2) So basically, a 200-pound character with ST 10 can lift more than a 100-lb character with the same ST, all else being equal.)

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Heh. Interesting that he thought that a "startling archaicism" when that's actually her name.

Well, in chapter 13 he listens to the recordings made by the helmet systems and realizes it's a name or nickname, but he never quite figures out the spelling.

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Of all the Sabers, Linna seems the most in control of herself at this point.

Of all the Sabers, Linna's the only one that doesn't have an emotional investment in the "mission" of the Sabers or her view of herself relative to it.

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Nene's sampling and countering of Shadowwalker's sonar was perfect. Did she ever get 100% effect on her though?

No, not 100%, at least against the sonic attack; she was able to overwhelm Maggie's sonar at least briefly, though, which helped Nene get the drop on her.

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Say - what pantheon is Hexe supposedly from anyway?

Helen has specifically asked that I not say what is known in-game. So the initial, joke answer is, "I'm sorry, Citizen, that information is not available at your security clearance."
More seriously, though, see what Hexe says a moment later -- "The gods all have many faces and names." And remember that the Three are all the Triune goddesses -- not just UK&B, but also the Furies, also the Greek Fates, also the Wiccan Goddess, also Brigit/Maebh/Morrigan, etc. etc. et nauseum cetera. Think of the pantheons as "filters" fitted over the divine reality to make it easier for mortals to get a handle on them.
That being said, that passage was once a little bit longer; almost up to the final draft, it read something like this: "The gods all have many faces and names. Does it really matter which I choose? I could be the daughter of the Thunderbird and the Sky, or the anima of Poseidon, or Thor's baby sister." So the answer to your question is, "yes."

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Despite your description of who this is and their surroundings, I can't help but think of Belldandy, Urd and Skuld all sitting in front of a big screen TV with Skuld munching on a big old tub of Ice Cream. (Chuckle)

That is a great image, and not entirely inaccurate, given the material in the answer immediately above. However, I've been having serious doubts about playing the Three for any comedy whatsoever. (I'm arguing this out with my prereaders right now, in fact.) Doug fears them, and rightly so -- as he has noted, they are among the most dangerous Powers to face, becasue of what they embody and control. I really should not be using them as a peanut gallery.
Then again, we know from another chapter that they deliberately arranged for Doug to come to the BGC world, and they have a vested interest in watching his performance. Also, is it not the occupation of gods everywhere to watch the antics of mortals and laugh at them?

I'll figure out what I really want eventually, I'm sure.

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Real world physics versus comic book physics! Actually, I suspect that's more of a nod by you to the convention actually then a mistake that Silverbolt would make.

Exactly.

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Nene isn't angry at Shadowwalker or Doug. She's angry at herself more.

Exactly. In a (more or less unintentional) way, Nene is a kind of touchstone for the "average person" in the BGC world (even though Linna is traditionally put in that role by fans). She knows what she believes, and she is complacent within that frame of reference. Doug comes from outside of that frame, with what is to her an utterly alien set of axioms that fit her world as well as her own, and as is noted elsewhere in this thread, she reacts badly to having her nice neat definition of the world ruptured and expanded. What makes it worse for her is that if she's wrong, she's been actively evil by her own morality. She hasn't, mind you -- she's a small-w warrior, fighting a war to protect those who can't protect themselves -- something that Doug has yet to realize, because he, too, is limited by his preconceptions. Doug's definition of the Sabers as "slavehunters" is as uncomplicated and incorrect as Nene's definition of them as "shining heroes"; the truth is somewhere in between, and it's doubtful Doug will have the time to realize that.

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When you can question what you've done, you aren't evil. As you yourself have mentioned in another thread. (Harry Potter story fragment I think))

Correct. The realization Nene must reach to come to peace with herself is that yes, boomers are people, but no, she is not a murderer because she was acting in the defense of herself, her friends, and the people of the city. She has to make the mental transition from thinking of herself as a "hero" to thinking of herself as a "soldier". Which, weirdly enough, is the distinction between the JLA and the Warriors, as you've noted.

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Technical question - shouldn't her outside visor flip up instead?

Yes. But I've never seen them "automatically" flip up on a suit -- they've always been manually opened. And I needed Sylia to be able to see still after Hexe shut down her suit. Think of it as another "fifth generation" design feature.

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Sorry. Game geeking for a moment there. ^_^

No problem.

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Okay, I have to know what's the story behind this. I figure a mutation of some sort.

Yes, Shadowwalker is a mutant -- born that way.

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But does the fur actually have anything to do with her senses?

It is, in fact, part of the reception system for her sonar. "Fur" is a misnomer, but Nene's in no position to make accurate observations at the moment; they're very, very fine hairs that function relative to sound much like a cat's whiskers. They handle almost all of the passive aspect of her sonar, as well as some of the active.

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Did she grow up this way? How did it affect her life?

Best quick answer I can give you is go to www.eclipse.net/~rms/istc...ightscream -- this rejected IST character, as I note in the Concordance, was very loosely based on Shadowwalker. While the powers are somewhat different, the character history is pretty close to Maggie's.

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Seems like it would look _very_ disturbing.

Nene certainly thought so; but it's something you can get used to.

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She must wear sunglasses all the time.

Peggy has instructed me to direct you to the "Shadowwalker off-duty" drawing in the gallery section of the DW main page.

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And that was about my reaction as well. Very nice way to bring one of the real Warriors in unexpectedly.

The Hexe scene -- at least as far as "I *am* here", was also written years ago. I had always felt that with the amount of talking about the other Warriors I knew Doug would do, it was only fair to give the readers a decent payoff. Again, to be completely honest, as I note above this was written with the intent of it being a completely different scene from Shadowwalker's. It was only about two years ago that I decided to merge them into one.

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Well, this is getting rather long. I'll have more commentary in return to comments back.

Well, here are my comments back. I hope you write some more -- I'd love to see your thoughts on Hexe dressing down Doug, and chatting with Lisa. In any case, thanks again for reading and commenting.
(Wow, I finished. Cool. Of course, I wrote this all off-line over the course of the day, but still...)
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

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think you're overpraising us there, but we definitely have fielded individual JLA-level talents.

Perhaps, but the Warriors have something that the JLA (at least in my experience) lacks: tactical combat training. THe JLA is a bunch of functionally individual heros banded together to deal with things that are individually too powerful. The warriors are a Combat Team, traind to take names and kick ass. The 2 or 3 strongest JLA members might be able to hold them off, but the weaker ones would fall victim to the "overwhelm and destroy" tactics that the Warriors use...

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(I'm arguing this out with my prereaders right now, in fact.)

*waves*

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Doug fears them, and rightly so -- as he has noted, they are among the most dangerous Powers to face, becasue of what they embody and control. I really should not be using them as a peanut gallery.
Then again, we know from another chapter that they deliberately arranged for Doug to come to the BGC world, and they have a vested interest in watching his performance. Also, is it not the occupation of gods everywhere to watch the antics of mortals and laugh at them?

I still think it works like it is. Besides, of all the characters on the Muppet Show, who do you think the cast feared most, with the exception of Animal? Waldorf and Stadtler, that's who. They may have been the Peanut Gallery, but we all knew they were da bomb [Image: smile.gif]

And I also think that you can't forget that in some ways LT's job in life is to entertain, or he wouldn't have taken the monicker to heart like he did...
Offsides
Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large

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The 2 or 3 strongest JLA members might be able to hold them off, but the weaker ones would fall victim to the "overwhelm and destroy" tactics that the Warriors use...

"Who would beat whom" arguments should move into General/General...

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*waves*

*waves back* I presume that was you in the chat room -- I tried to join, then discovered that I had to download and install a Java runtime console in order to do so. It just finished, an hour or so later...

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I still think it works like it is.

The prereaders are starting to wear me down on this issue...

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

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What if kindly ol' Doc Stingray programmed his daughter for revenge, using that circuitry and the data cartridge that dumped so much other stuff into her 10-year-old brain? What if she isn't allowed to question her crusade?
Didn't Chris Davies use something like this in his Together Again series?

It wouldn't surprise me if he did, but what more came to my mind was RpM's BtAS and BGC Fusions. Smile, and I forget the one before that that basicly dealt with a re-incarnated Dr Frieze.
www.thekeep.org/~rpm/ I think.....
"I was an Otaku before those kids came along and changed the meaning of the word."

-- HM "Howling Mad" Wilson to more than one team-mate.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

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"Who would beat whom" arguments should move into General/General...

That wasn't my purpose - just the general sentiment [Image: smile.gif]

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I presume that was you in the chat room

Yup - you're one of only two of my friends I communicate with regularly that isn't on IM, so I make do with what I've got... Oh well, maybe I'll catch you later tonight.
Offsides
Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large

More commentary on the commentary on the commentary...

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Well, maybe you can come by one night and we'll have Helen's husband Attila demonstrate all those moves on you the way he demonstrated them on me. Along with an injured finger, I got a rather comprehensively kinesthetic sense of the action between the two.

Although I do hope to someday meet you in person, I think I'll just go ahead and pass on having my fingers bent around creatively by your friends. ^.^;;

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I think you're overpraising us there, but we definitely have fielded individual JLA-level talents.

Well, I think what makes for the equalizing factor is the training and attitude involved. The JLA really aren't specifically created to work together as a unit. They do have professional warriors and such on their team - Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern - but none of them have the attitude of soldiers. They're an adventurer's club with the attitude of policemen, if they even think that officially about it. They get by often more on raw power than tactics.
Although, if they'd let Batman take over the tactics and planning, they'd be scary!

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To tell you the truth, Peggy's hesitant about sharing her characters. And the others, well, I sent them emails pointing them to this review, but none of them have gotten back to me yet.
(Snip)
There have been other short stories featuring Warriors, but their authors are not so stupid as I to go and put them up where other people can see them.

Darn... I don't know what to say about that. I'm not sure what kind of reassurances they'd be wanting. You've put Doug up for view, and now have portrayed the Warriors (some of them) in fiction. All the rights issues have been seen to, I assume, so I'm not sure what the problem would be. I can assure you Peg and the others that I wouldn't use the characters without permission. Like I said, I'm just interested in crunching numbers and maybe doing conversions. That and going "Oooh! Ahh!" ^_^

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I just want to mention that making those concepts work is harder than you might think -- V&V is a random-generation system, and a player has a major challenge on his hands assembling a reasonable theme for a character with a bunch of apparently unrelated powers... (V&V is also an explicitly self-insert game -- the rules require that your first character be you with powers!)

Oh believe me, I remember about that. My friend Mark and I, back when we played V&V, had to throw out a couple of very odd random sets of powers before we got to some that we liked.

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Above and beyond that, though, I think what you're reacting to is the fact that these characters all have 15 years or so of living history behind them, informing all their actions and dialogue even when it isn't really "visible" onscreen. They've lived, grown, faced challenges both personal and global, experienced success, experienced failure, gain, loss, and in some cases grew from teenager to mature adult over that span. There's a weight to that and it'd be impossible for me not to write them without that influence.

(Nods) Yes, I have a couple of characters like that. One is a Traveller character first created back in 1982 (Imperial Interstellar Scout Logan Darklighter - and now you know where I got my pseudonym ^_^) and a Champions character named Lora Doubet. She's gone through a couple of different incarnations now. Started off as a superhero, and I may yet play that version of her again someday. But currently, I think of her as much more comfortable in a cyberpunk themed milieu.

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And at the moment the plots for the other Steps don't have too much call for simulacra (Doug takes Hexe's warning to heart, too). However... can you imagine the reaction of Gendo Ikari and the Central Dogma Bridge Bunnies to a manifestation of Hexe or Silverbolt taking on an Angel?

Well, I think we got a taste of that from one of your previews, I think. ^_^
Seriously, though, the scales are so intensely out of proportion, I don't know if even Hexe could take on some of the more powerful or weird Angels. Silverbolt may be powerful, but she'd just get swatted by a majority of the Angels. The whole A-T field thing is another factor. Could Hexe generate one?

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-------------------------------------
"Your entrance was good, his was better. The difference? Showmanship!"
-------------------------------------
I know that's a quote from something, but what? I can't place it.

Jim Carrey as the Riddler to Tommy Lee Jones as Two-Face in Batman Forever, right after Batman crashes through the skylight at the gala and beats on a few of Two-Face's thugs. Not a good movie. But something of a guilty pleasure for me. It had it's moments. And Jim Carrey's over the top obnoxiousness was perfect for the Riddler IMHO. And, bad as it is, at least it's not Batman and Robin. (SHUDDER) That's nearly two hours of my life I'm never getting back... Joel Shumacher has yet to pay the price he so richly deserves for utterly destroying that franchise...

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Arcanum, the campaign's central big bad for many many years, once harassed the Warriors by publishing a book of tactics that could be used against them; the number one rule in there for anyone going into combat against us was "Take down Looney Toons, fast and hard". Because you never know what he's going to come up with to screw up your plans.

Sounds like a smart man, and very very dangerous.
(Snip discussion of Lisa's memories and reasoning behind that element. You covered that completely to my satisfaction.)

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You're probably right. As it is, I certainly had the Sabers fighting below par; they could have done even better. Case in point: Dave Menard sent me an email last night which pointed out that Sylia -- once she realized that melee wasn't doing the job -- should have retreated to a distance and opened up with her lasers. He's right. Of course, there's nowhere on the face of the planet that she could retreat to for sniping that Hexe couldn't get to at almost the same moment, but that's irrelevant. I wrote Sylia as less intelligent than she should have been.

That's a good point. She didn't have to retreat very far, either. Just outside of melee range and open up a few times with her blasters. Or heck, she's go knucklebombers of her own, you know. Whether they are the contact laser variety from BGC or the actual knucklebombers that were added to the suit for Crash. Perhaps a line could have been added to the effect that Sylia _tried_ to open it up a little, but was being pressed too much by Hexe? A little late for that now, unless you want to Stalinize it. If it makes you feel any better, I got the sense that Sylia was being pressed and was off balance mentally anyway.

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Fairly early on I decided I wanted to let people see a little of the other Warriors, and the simulacra evolved as a way to do that. (No, he didn't have any Warriors simulacra songs in-game before that. He does now.

Oh ho! I wonder what your next GM is going to say to that? ^_^ I wonder what would happen if he manifested a couple of them while the real ones are actually still there and present? Imagine having two of Silverbolt or Hexe running around (for approx. 5 minutes anyway). The mind boggles...

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I mean, really... Warriors' World is really liberal about non-human sentients -- if the forgotten stuff in the back of your fridge moves, it has a decent chance of getting provisional citizenship and basic rights.

I think I'm going to save that line and put it in my quote file. ^_^

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Of course Doug will have a problem with the BGC world, and its heroic enforcers.) And I knew he'd have to face off against them somehow, if only for the symbolic value. I also knew that against the Sabers in a stand-up fight, Doug would quickly end up lying down. In a pool of blood. Well, at that point, it all came together. As Nene's arc developed, I threaded that into the fight as well. And from there it just sort of fell together while at the same growing. Thus it is that we now have chapter 12. Does that make any sense?

Yes, that all makes perfect sense.

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Quote:
--------------------
Just how strong is Silverbolt anyway?
--------------------
Peggy confirmed that I was in the right ballpark. Silverbolt's carry capacity is approximately 25,500 pounds, or 12.75 tons.

Huh. How about that? That's almost exactly Lora Doubet's lifting capacity as well. She can lift 12.5 tons without straining herself or her systems.

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(V&V carry capacity is a calculated quantity that can often be humorously specific: "I can lift 3,427.15 lbs, and no more!" Just to be pedantic, it's ((Strength / 10)^3 + (Endurance / 10)) * (body weight / 2) So basically, a 200-pound character with ST 10 can lift more than a 100-lb character with the same ST, all else being equal.)

Humorously specific -- Yeah, if I were to make a V&V character based on myself as I am today and kept the exact same STR score from my first V&V character, "I'd" be able to lift a lot more. And that's all I need say about that. ^^;;

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No, not 100%, at least against the sonic attack; she was able to overwhelm Maggie's sonar at least briefly, though, which helped Nene get the drop on her.

Because she had more to sample from in the case of the latter, of course, since Maggie was broadcasting that constantly.

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Helen has specifically asked that I not say what is known in-game. So the initial, joke answer is, "I'm sorry, Citizen, that information is not available at your security clearance."
More seriously, though, see what Hexe says a moment later -- "The gods all have many faces and names." And remember that the Three are all the Triune goddesses -- not just UK&B, but also the Furies, also the Greek Fates, also the Wiccan Goddess, also Brigit/Maebh/Morrigan, etc. etc. et nauseum cetera. Think of the pantheons as "filters" fitted over the divine reality to make it easier for mortals to get a handle on them.

(Edit - Going off topic here for the next few paragraphs, sorry!)
This actually makes more sense in a way than Eyrie Productions Undocumented Features universe. There it seems that (unless I'm missing something) the Norse Pantheon is the one that's made a real comeback, but no one else. The Norse haven't been actively worshipped in centuries, and now they're manifesting? What gives?
This is fun for the story as long as we keep to the cardinal rule "don't examine this too closely", but it does make me wonder from time to time, what the heck is up with all the other pantheons, not to mention the Judeo-Chistian mythos? (That last would get into some potentially dangerous territory if not for the cardinal rule above.)
I mean, I see Belldandy, as she's presented in AMG, as her own entity, not an avatar or filter. Your method of presenting things so far makes me wonder what, in your version of AMG, she really is. And who she is, as well. I mean, Belldandy really loves Keiichi with all her heart. Does that apply to her other aspects as well? And if not, and Keichi really understood what Belldandy was in these terms, what would it mean for their relationship?
And then we get into some really wild territory in Evangelion. I'm beginning to think this subject deserves an entire seperate post! ^_^
Not complaining at all. Just intensely curious as to how it all is going to fit together. The closer you look at this subject, the more metaphysical it gets. Which, I guess natural, really. ^_^

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Then again, we know from another chapter that they deliberately arranged for Doug to come to the BGC world, and they have a vested interest in watching his performance. Also, is it not the occupation of gods everywhere to watch the antics of mortals and laugh at them?

I'll figure out what I really want eventually, I'm sure.

I'm sure you'll work it all out. ^_^

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Doug comes from outside of that frame, with what is to her an utterly alien set of axioms that fit her world as well as her own, and as is noted elsewhere in this thread, she reacts badly to having her nice neat definition of the world ruptured and expanded. What makes it worse for her is that if she's wrong, she's been actively evil by her own morality. She hasn't, mind you -- she's a small-w warrior, fighting a war to protect those who can't protect themselves -- something that Doug has yet to realize, because he, too, is limited by his preconceptions. Doug's definition of the Sabers as "slavehunters" is as uncomplicated and incorrect as Nene's definition of them as "shining heroes"; the truth is somewhere in between, and it's doubtful Doug will have the time to realize that.[/quote
Are you sure about that? I'd be somewhat dissapointed if Doug couldn't realize some of the grey nature of the Knight Sabers and their conflict before he left the BGC universe. He's certainly intelligent enough.

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she is not a murderer because she was acting in the defense of herself, her friends, and the people of the city. She has to make the mental transition from thinking of herself as a "hero" to thinking of herself as a "soldier". Which, weirdly enough, is the distinction between the JLA and the Warriors, as you'v

Yeah, strangely enough. Doug is an actual superhero who thinks of himself more as a soldier. Nene is a mercenary(soldier) who thinks of herself as more of a superhero. The irony there is pretty intense.

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It is, in fact, part of the reception system for her sonar. "Fur" is a misnomer, but Nene's in no position to make accurate observations at the moment; they're very, very fine hairs that function relative to sound much like a cat's whiskers. They handle almost all of the passive aspect of her sonar, as well as some of the active.

That's great, but she has a mask on over her "eyes", so wouldn't that interfere? Or is this another case of "Don't examine this too closely"? ^_^
Concerning the dressing down by Hexe and her short visit with Lisa -
I thought that was well handled, like the rest of the story. I thought Hexe came off as sympathetic even with all her haughtiness intact. It's like it's an integral part of her personality, but not the crucial part. And she definately shows plenty of empathy with Doug and his situation. That she promises to tell Maggie what's happened to him speaks well of her. Not just the fact that she would do it, which is more of a given. But that she wants to do it and offer as much comfort for both of them as she can. She's not cold at all, despite her snootiness. She still has to get in her digs, but it's more as an "older sister" type thing.
This is of course reinforced by her show of protectiveness towards him that is shown when she tells off the triune.
The more I think of the way her personality comes off, the more I think of her as embodying prominent aspects of the goddess Athena. If that isn't who she is at least in part, I'd be really really surprised.
Whew! Man this got long! Need sleep before work tonight... Later, dude!
-Logan

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Yeah, strangely enough. Doug is an actual superhero who thinks of himself more as a soldier. Nene is a mercenary(soldier) who thinks of herself as more of a superhero. The irony there is pretty intense.

Actually, it's not that he's a superhero in general, it's just that he's been cast in that role given the "orientation" of the world he's in. I'm sure that in a different world with a different social climate he'd play a different role...
Offsides
Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large

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Joel Shumacher has yet to pay the price he so richly deserves for utterly destroying that franchise...

Schumacher isn't totally to blame for the evisceration of the Batman franchise. Equal heaps of blame need to be laid at the feet of his partner in crime, "writer" Akiva Goldsman. The same intellect that brought us Lost in Space starring a slumming Gary Oldman and Joey from "Friends."

The fact that this man won an Oscar is proof enough that we need to send the bombers in and raze Hollywood completely.

--Mr. F., bad movie enthusiast
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

Hey, don't knock the Lost in Space movie -- if I hadn't seen it, I'd never have come up with the idea of casting Lacey Chabert as Sailor Mercury...

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

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