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https://twitter.com/tocradio/status/1292...27808?s=21


Emergency inspection of bunker under way.
I assume the "WH" in question isn't WarHammer, what with its whole "more dakka" theme.

Wuthering Heights makes even less sense in context.

(consults AcronymFinder)

Oh, that place.

Considering how much the Nicknamer-in-Chief has been encouraging this sort of behaviour, the only surprise in his getting to experience it up close and personal is that it's taken this long to happen.

He is reaping what he has sown.
If people are interested in preventing these type of incidents in the future, we can always take all your guns away. But I am reliably informed that the whole point of the right to bear arms is so that things like this can continue to happen. Sic semper tyrannis, and all that jazz.
As I mentioned in the next thread over, Lab, I'd be perfectly happy if gun ownership in America was contingent on a whether or not a person is enlisted with a local militia.

Personally, I think that'd go a long ways towards settling things. No more lone wolf types looking for their 15 seconds of fame because there's a much greater degree of accountability. But at the same time, anyone can join a militia, or even found one themselves. So while it is a restriction, it's only in the technical sense of the word.

I mean, what are you gonna do? Get with a bunch of like minded people to protest the change? Wink

As a bonus, people that act as a group in a manner that becomes a threat to others can be branded as terrorists, and that's a label with enough stigma that even the most radical groups in America are loath to attempt anything to earn the label. So a militia will be sure to keep an eye on its membership to make sure no one is going to act out.
The change I would actually make would be something would look remarkably like Western Europe, with some adaptations for the fact that we have significantly more bears and wolves and cougars and rattlers out here.

1) Take away everyone's handguns.  Allow them to be kept at a gun club or museum or with a special license.  Let police keep them during the transition.
2) Same thing about the assault rifles, and anything more fun like an SMG.  Maybe also require them to part of a militia, like you suggest.
3) Hunting rifles and shotguns are fine at home if stored properly!  You can't hide them nearly as easily, and they don't usually cause mass death. They don't even cause so many suicides, so much harder to point a rifle at your head and pull the trigger -- maybe enough time to reconsider?  But they're useful for farming and hunting and ranching.
4) All the guns get tracked by the government, don't care if it's states or federal.  If you have a gun, law enforcement agents can ask to enter your property to see if you have it stored safely (also no fucking around to hunt for other crimes while you're there please).  Fines for unlicensed or unsafely stored guns.
5) Finally, once all of this is in place, make police put the guns in the back of their car, and request permission to unlock the gun locker.  Police should not be afraid that anyone that approaches them could shoot them.  Our police deserve to not be at risk all of the time.
6) Extra licensing for people who want to tinker with guns, or do exotic things like Mythbusting.  Make it at least as hard to get as fireworks licenses or fucking cosmetology licenses.  In Valen's name, why do people need six months of training to hold scissors but guns are fine for everyone?
7) If Mexico finds a firearm from America used in a crime, and we don't have a sale recorded, fine the last owner.  Or crime committed anywhere.  We do this for cars, this should not be hard.  Stop the flow of immigrants by making Mexico less shitty.

Yes, there's issues with the proposal.  I know people use ARs customized for hunting.  I know there are environmental issues with hunting (mainly the predators, please kill more deer: we have tons of 'em).
(08-11-2020, 10:50 PM)Labster Wrote: [ -> ]The change I would actually make would be something would look remarkably like Western Europe, with some adaptations for the fact that we have significantly more bears and wolves and cougars and rattlers out here.

1) Take away everyone's handguns.  Allow them to be kept at a gun club or museum or with a special license.  Let police keep them during the transition.
2) Same thing about the assault rifles, and anything more fun like an SMG.  Maybe also require them to part of a militia, like you suggest.
3) Hunting rifles and shotguns are fine at home if stored properly!  You can't hide them nearly as easily, and they don't usually cause mass death. They don't even cause so many suicides, so much harder to point a rifle at your head and pull the trigger -- maybe enough time to reconsider?  But they're useful for farming and hunting and ranching.
4) All the guns get tracked by the government, don't care if it's states or federal.  If you have a gun, law enforcement agents can ask to enter your property to see if you have it stored safely (also no fucking around to hunt for other crimes while you're there please).  Fines for unlicensed or unsafely stored guns.
5) Finally, once all of this is in place, make police put the guns in the back of their car, and request permission to unlock the gun locker.  Police should not be afraid that anyone that approaches them could shoot them.  Our police deserve to not be at risk all of the time.
6) Extra licensing for people who want to tinker with guns, or do exotic things like Mythbusting.  Make it at least as hard to get as fireworks licenses or fucking cosmetology licenses.  In Valen's name, why do people need six months of training to hold scissors but guns are fine for everyone?
7) If Mexico finds a firearm from America used in a crime, and we don't have a sale recorded, fine the last owner.  Or crime committed anywhere.  We do this for cars, this should not be hard.  Stop the flow of immigrants by making Mexico less shitty.

Yes, there's issues with the proposal.  I know people use ARs customized for hunting.  I know there are environmental issues with hunting (mainly the predators, please kill more deer: we have tons of 'em).

Hmmmmm... Maybe we should adopt points 1 and 7 here in Canada. That would give us the full set.
I would amend 7 to 'if any weapon is used in a crime, even abroad, and it was not registered as either sold or stolen'. You don't want to punish people who did their due diligence and properly informed the authorities.

Constantly buying and losing guns is all sorts of suspicious of course. One might even think they're making sure things fall off the back end of a truck.


The list is otherwise quite reasonable.
I'm just curious as to what my proposal fails to accomplish in comparison to yours, Labster.

Granted, I made no stipulation about how the firearms are to be kept and stored, but by requiring that in order to own any firearm you must be enlisted with a local militia, your weapons become known to the state.

Or at least, that's how it should be.  God knows there was hell to pay if even a single round of ammunition was unaccounted for while I was in the Navy.  I don't see why a militia can't be held to a similar standard.

Though it needs to be reiterated: not allowing sidearms to be kept by their owners within their own home is going to be a non-starter, even with the large majority of the not-crazy gun owners.  Handguns, the sane gun owners will argue, should be allowed to be kept at home for the purposes of home protection.  Whether or not having a hand gun on the premises actually is effective is of little matter.  What will matter is the peace of mind it will bring that person, as well as the simple fact that most home invaders will immediately turn tail the moment they see a gun.

Additionally, large caliber handguns are a must if you're hunting dangerous game like bears or wild boars.  They make for a good back-up plan in case that critter isn't as dead as you thought it was.  A bear's skull may be tough, but not so tough that emptying a magazine of .44 magnum into its face won't do the trick.  (Though a shotgun loaded with 3" magnum deer slug shells will do the trick quite handily, too, but who wants to lug something that heavy through the brush along with their long gun?)

However, mandating standards for the keeping and storing of firearms would be something they'd agree happily to.  A good gun vault that requires both a key and a combination to open and is anchored into a sizeable concrete pad or the house's foundation should work well enough.  The assault rifles and other funsies can be mandated to be kept at the militia's base, and that should go over fairly well.

(Although we can also probably make the additional stipulation that you may only have one sidearm and one longarm per person in the household, and also that this is limited to persons who have an officially recognized certificate of basic proficiency.  Little Timmy shouldn't count if he doesn't know to never point the gun at anyone he doesn't intend to shoot.  The rest of the gun collection will be kept at the militia base and may be interchanged freely, though these interchanges must be recorded in a log book kept at the base.)

And on that note I would say that the only way a minor can own a firearm is if it is held in trust by their parents or guardians.  Additionally, until they are adults, they are never allowed to be unsupervised with a firearm, even if it is technically their own.  Oh, and minors are never to be allowed the combination and key to the gun vault except in an emergency, after which the key must immediately be accounted for and the combination changed as soon as reasonably possible.

As to suicides, that will have to play hand-in-hand with reformation of the mental health system.  A hand gun is just the easiest and quickest way to go.  Yes, about 50% of all suicides in the US are by firearms.  But the vast majority of the other half is by poisoning (read: mostly drug overdose) and asphyxiation (read: mostly hanging).  Not terribly difficult to pull off, though asphyxiation does require some set-up, which is why poisoning is the larger wedge in that side of the pie.  If you you take hand guns out of the picture, you'll prevent a fair number for sure... But that number will still be smaller than the other half of the pie, no matter what.  And we want to stop as many suicides as possible, right?

That said, I'd have no qualms about taking firearms into the temporary custody of the ATF once it's known that someone is suicidal.  And if all firearm owners are enlisted in a militia, then that makes it a lot easier for these problems to be spotted.  You are basically forced to be a part of a group, and that alone is going to go a ways to preventing suicide - not only because others might see it coming, but also because it gives a person a chance to talk things out with other like-minded individuals.
(08-15-2020, 02:00 PM)Black Aeronaut Wrote: [ -> ]Or at least, that's how it should be.  God knows there was hell to pay if even a single round of ammunition was unaccounted for while I was in the Navy.  I don't see why a militia can't be held to a similar standard.

Militia aren't government organizations. They certainly should be, or at least heavily overseen by the government, but they aren't.

(08-15-2020, 02:00 PM)Black Aeronaut Wrote: [ -> ]Though it needs to be reiterated: not allowing sidearms to be kept by their owners within their own home is going to be a non-starter, even with the large majority of the not-crazy gun owners.  Handguns, the sane gun owners will argue, should be allowed to be kept at home for the purposes of home protection.  Whether or not having a hand gun on the premises actually is effective is of little matter.  What will matter is the peace of mind it will bring that person, as well as the simple fact that most home invaders will immediately turn tail the moment they see a gun.

That most home invaders will run the moment they see a gun is not an argument to permit a handgun in the house. That's an argument that any gun will function as a deterrent for home invasion, including long guns. Even if those long guns are less convenient.

(08-15-2020, 02:00 PM)Black Aeronaut Wrote: [ -> ]Additionally, large caliber handguns are a must if you're hunting dangerous game like bears or wild boars.  They make for a good back-up plan in case that critter isn't as dead as you thought it was.  A bear's skull may be tough, but not so tough that emptying a magazine of .44 magnum into its face won't do the trick.  (Though a shotgun loaded with 3" magnum deer slug shells will do the trick quite handily, too, but who wants to lug something that heavy through the brush along with their long gun?)

That's an argument to allow the carrying of large caliber handguns on hunts/during hunting season, not an argument to store a handgun in the home.

(08-15-2020, 02:00 PM)Black Aeronaut Wrote: [ -> ]However, mandating standards for the keeping and storing of firearms would be something they'd agree happily to.  A good gun vault that requires both a key and a combination to open and is anchored into a sizeable concrete pad or the house's foundation should work well enough.  The assault rifles and other funsies can be mandated to be kept at the militia's base, and that should go over fairly well.

Just any sufficiently heavy and cumbersome safe will do really. The point isn't even to make it impossible to open without the keys and code, because that's impossible. You want to make sure that whoever is trying to get access is delayed and needs to think about what they are doing.

(08-15-2020, 02:00 PM)Black Aeronaut Wrote: [ -> ](Although we can also probably make the additional stipulation that you may only have one sidearm and one longarm per person in the household, and also that this is limited to persons who have an officially recognized certificate of basic proficiency.  Little Timmy shouldn't count if he doesn't know to never point the gun at anyone he doesn't intend to shoot.  The rest of the gun collection will be kept at the militia base and may be interchanged freely, though these interchanges must be recorded in a log book kept at the base.)

You don't permit children to drive cars either, and motorized vehicles are pretty dangerous themselves. Procedures to get a certificate of proficiency (or driving license) are restricted by age, so I don't see why gun access shouldn't be either. As for the logs, keep 4. One for the owner of the gun, one for the handler of the gun, and separate paper and electronic logs for the militia. And gods help you if the logs are in disagreement.

(08-15-2020, 02:00 PM)Black Aeronaut Wrote: [ -> ]And on that note I would say that the only way a minor can own a firearm is if it is held in trust by their parents or guardians.  Additionally, until they are adults, they are never allowed to be unsupervised with a firearm, even if it is technically their own.  Oh, and minors are never to be allowed the combination and key to the gun vault except in an emergency, after which the key must immediately be accounted for and the combination changed as soon as reasonably possible.

This is really a gun culture issue more than a gun issue in and of itself, and it's quite sensible. Although I wouldn't permit children ownership of a gun, even held in trust. It's their parent's/guardian's weapon, and said adult is responsible for what happens with it. Including legal liability.

(08-15-2020, 02:00 PM)Black Aeronaut Wrote: [ -> ]As to suicides, that will have to play hand-in-hand with reformation of the mental health system.  A hand gun is just the easiest and quickest way to go.  Yes, about 50% of all suicides in the US are by firearms.  But the vast majority of the other half is by poisoning (read: mostly drug overdose) and asphyxiation (read: mostly hanging).  Not terribly difficult to pull off, though asphyxiation does require some set-up, which is why poisoning is the larger wedge in that side of the pie.  If you you take hand guns out of the picture, you'll prevent a fair number for sure... But that number will still be smaller than the other half of the pie, no matter what.  And we want to stop as many suicides as possible, right?

That said, I'd have no qualms about taking firearms into the temporary custody of the ATF once it's known that someone is suicidal.  And if all firearm owners are enlisted in a militia, then that makes it a lot easier for these problems to be spotted.  You are basically forced to be a part of a group, and that alone is going to go a ways to preventing suicide - not only because others might see it coming, but also because it gives a person a chance to talk things out with other like-minded individuals.

The USA has one of the highest suicide rates of the western world. While ease of access to firearms no doubt plays a role in this as does the distinctly lacking mental healthcare system, the biggest component appears to me to be the high stress induced by the USA's culture in general.

Unfortunately, most suicidal people just don't show many signs of their impending suicide if they show any at all, you learn to put up and keep up a mask of normalcy no matter what. What does help though is being connected in a community with other people. Feeling isolated and/or disconnected from other people is often a major contributor to suicidal ideation, while having any emotional bond, something or someone to live for, often helps fighting it.
(08-15-2020, 02:00 PM)Black Aeronaut Wrote: [ -> ]I'm just curious as to what my proposal fails to accomplish in comparison to yours, Labster.
...
Though it needs to be reiterated: not allowing sidearms to be kept by their owners within their own home is going to be a non-starter, even with the large majority of the not-crazy gun owners.  Handguns, the sane gun owners will argue, should be allowed to be kept at home for the purposes of home protection.  Whether or not having a hand gun on the premises actually is effective is of little matter.  What will matter is the peace of mind it will bring that person, as well as the simple fact that most home invaders will immediately turn tail the moment they see a gun.

What it would accomplish is the actual, in-fact safety of gun owners, rather than their peace of mind.  I agree that it's a non-starter politically right now, but that's only because people would rather feel safe than be alive longer.

Let's start with this report on gun violence from Pew Research (pun intended)

Quote:In 2017, handguns were involved in the majority (64%) of the 10,982 U.S. gun murders and non-negligent manslaughters for which data is available, according to the FBI. Rifles – the category that includes many guns that are sometimes referred to as “assault weapons”– were involved in 4%. Shotguns were involved in 2%. The remainder of gun homicides and non-negligent manslaughters (30%) involved firearms that were classified as “other guns or type not stated.”

So let's renormalize that to remove the "type not stated" category. Shotguns are 3.4%, rifles and assault rifles are 5.2%, and the remaining 91.3% are handguns.  Handguns are, to a first order approximation, the gun violence problem in the United States. Any attempt to address gun violence without looking at sidearms is not serious and possibly disingenuous.  Which includes attempts made by my second favorite US Senator from California, Dianne Feinstein.

Getting assault weapons off the streets isn't going to help nearly as much as handguns.  Criminals will just switch, you say?  Sure, I guess.  But a five year old can conceal a handgun in his backpack, but they can't even hold a rifle straight.  If I was a bank employee and saw rifles, I'd hit the alarm before they even came inside the bank.  Concealment means a lot.  Sidearms aren't very accurate, and are more likely to kill bystanders who are not the intended target -- this applies to police, too.

And, well, sidearms aren't really even military weapons.  I seem to recall something about enlisted men getting rifles, but only officers being entitled to sidearms.  Which makes it a weapon for policing, really.  A militia would run fine with rifles, assault weapons, and non-lethal police weapons.

hazard Wrote:The USA has one of the highest suicide rates of the western world. While ease of access to firearms no doubt plays a role in this as does the distinctly lacking mental healthcare system, the biggest component appears to me to be the high stress induced by the USA's culture in general.

While I don't disagree with this on principle, accessibility of a means of suicide is a key driver of suicide, since the feelings that lead to suicide are often quite ephemeral.  Guns are more effective than most other means of self-dispatch, so it means more die on their first and only attempt.  And, from that same article earlier:

Quote:Three-quarters of all U.S. murders in 2017 – 14,542 out of 19,510 – involved a firearm. About half (51%) of all suicides that year – 23,854 out of 47,173 – involved a gun.

The majority of the suicide problem is also a gun problem.  In 2010, 61% of suicides were by gun.  If only 15% of people were just really drunk that day and didn't shoot themselves because they didn't have a gun, then taking the guns away would prevent 7.5% of suicides, or 2000 lives, or one 9/11 a year.  And none of this gets into the suicide-by-cop problem which usually includes murder too.

Handguns were used in 70% of suicides a couple decades back, so this is a handgun problem too.
(08-15-2020, 08:40 PM)hazard Wrote: [ -> ]
(08-15-2020, 02:00 PM)Black Aeronaut Wrote: [ -> ](Although we can also probably make the additional stipulation that you may only have one sidearm and one longarm per person in the household, and also that this is limited to persons who have an officially recognized certificate of basic proficiency.  Little Timmy shouldn't count if he doesn't know to never point the gun at anyone he doesn't intend to shoot.  The rest of the gun collection will be kept at the militia base and may be interchanged freely, though these interchanges must be recorded in a log book kept at the base.)

You don't permit children to drive cars either, and motorized vehicles are pretty dangerous themselves. Procedures to get a certificate of proficiency (or driving license) are restricted by age, so I don't see why gun access shouldn't be either. As for the logs, keep 4. One for the owner of the gun, one for the handler of the gun, and separate paper and electronic logs for the militia. And gods help you if the logs are in disagreement.

Unless you're going to automate the keeping of these logs - and I see no way to automate the keeping of these logs - you will get discrepancies. Even if the same person completes all four logs. People are human, and humans make mistakes.
It's called Ctrl-c, ctrl-v

That's the only way quadruplicate logs ever match. People will just xerox the fuck out of 'em.
As it turns out, the Second Amendment can be used to protect yourself: