Drunkard's Walk Forums

(06-15-2023, 07:45 PM)robkelk Wrote: [ -> ]What happened?

Oh, I see. Miraheze is shutting down. (There's another coffee mug I never got. )

I just started a thread on WikiTide's community portal. Let's see whether that's enough for them to get the lead out and start acting at least semi-professionally.

(06-15-2023, 07:21 PM)Labster Wrote: [ -> ]Miraheze is dead. Long live WikiTide!

What? What's happened?

EDIT: Oh, never mind. Rob's posts were "under the fold" for me and I didn't see them until this message got added to the thread.

So is there going to be someone to actually get us a dump of the wiki so we can move it? Or do we have to scrape ourselves?

Well, we have no option but to migrate the wiki now. We can still choose which wiki host to use, though.

Things to do:

• Pick a new host.
  
• Delete unused categories. Preferably before taking a wiki dump. The less we have to backup, even if it's only a few kb, the less we have to get restored on the new host.
  
• Get a dump of the wiki. Considering how large it is, this is a non-trivial task.
  
• Make sure everybody knows that they're going to need to re-create their user IDs.
  
• Clean up the lists of users with enhanced rights. How many users with admin rights do we have who haven't logged in for over a year, for example? (I have no way of knowing.) Make doubly-sure that anybody with admin rights of any sort knows that we're moving, and ask whether they want to keep their responsibilities and rights.
  
• Clean up the selection of gadgets and extensions that we're using. Beyond the plain-vanilla wiki, we don't actually need anything we're running. We appear to want Moderation, as long as Looney Toons is willing to be the moderator. In the past, we wanted a forum, but we can't have the one we had installed... and we appear to be running just fine with discussions on talk pages, so do we actually still want a forum? Somebody thought it was a good idea to install VisualEditor and Babel and Flow and Math and RandomGameUnit and Tabs and TabberNeue and WikiHiero and ImageRating and MediaWikiChat and BlogPage and a bunch of other things that either don't appear to have much if anything to do with our core brand of "discussing tropes", don't play well with other extensions, or both -- maybe we should forego those until the new wiki is actually running. ("BlogPage" is especially puzzling since we specifically say "We are not a personal blog, web host, memorial site, or social network service") We appear to have a lot of stuff that belongs on social media sites instead of wikis -- if nobody actually uses them, don't activate them on the new host.
  
• More, because I'm sure that this isn't everything.
  

(06-15-2023, 08:48 PM)robkelk Wrote: [ -> ]Well, we have no option but to migrate the wiki now. We can still choose which wiki host to use, though.

Things to do:

• Pick a new host.
  
• Delete unused categories. Preferably before taking a wiki dump. The less we have to backup, even if it's only a few kb, the less we have to get restored on the new host.
  
• Get a dump of the wiki. Considering how large it is, this is a non-trivial task.
  
• Make sure everybody knows that they're going to need to re-create their user IDs.
  
• Clean up the lists of users with enhanced rights. How many users with admin rights do we have who haven't logged in for over a year, for example? (I have no way of knowing.) Make doubly-sure that anybody with admin rights of any sort knows that we're moving, and ask whether they want to keep their responsibilities and rights.
  
• Clean up the selection of gadgets and extensions that we're using. Beyond the plain-vanilla wiki, we don't actually need anything we're running. We appear to want Moderation, as long as Looney Toons is willing to be the moderator. In the past, we wanted a forum, but we can't have the one we had installed... and we appear to be running just fine with discussions on talk pages, so do we actually still want a forum? Somebody thought it was a good idea to install VisualEditor and Babel and Flow and Math and RandomGameUnit and Tabs and TabberNeue and WikiHiero and ImageRating and MediaWikiChat and BlogPage and a bunch of other things that either don't appear to have much if anything to do with our core brand of "discussing tropes", don't play well with other extensions, or both -- maybe we should forego those until the new wiki is actually running. ("BlogPage" is especially puzzling since we specifically say "We are not a personal blog, web host, memorial site, or social network service") We appear to have a lot of stuff that belongs on social media sites instead of wikis -- if nobody actually uses them, don't activate them on the new host.
  
• More, because I'm sure that this isn't everything.
  

Rob, the BlogPage extension was added specifically for site-relevant blogging, such as essays on tropes, discussions about the site in an essay or some other explanatory format, and so on.

As for the other extensions you complained about, Let's run down the list that you mentioned, as I installed nigh all of them when it was believed they m,iught be relevant, and I'll give my own, on technical and practical reasons, suggestions for what to drop or keep.


VisualEditor: At one point it was considered universally useful and still can be good for talk pages only use, but for it's use in content pages there is a vote to kill it for, which I entirely support.

Babel: The basic backbone of any localization attempts, userboxes for showing language proficiency, and practically most other extensions and templates for displaying foreign language media/characters with multi-lingual functions. We need it.

Flow: I know it has a few shortcomings that bother you, but it's not actually broken, just not doing exactly as you want it to. As I said, file a Phabricator request with the WMF to address the features it needs to cover/improve on first before you decide it's useless and needs to die for the high crime of not doing everything you expect.

Math: If we are going to show any technical stuff regarding math (like on a page for physics-related tropes, use certain imported templates, or ensure no formatted weirdness in some template pages that are required for other templates, we need this. Currently, the latter two definitely apply in some fashion.

Tabs/Tabber Neue: Both are used for different reasons on various pages. Removing them breaks key site pages like the Community Portal and various other content pages.

RandomGameUnit: Yeah, this can die. Was initially enabled to hook into SocialProfile as it has features enhanced by it, but we never saw fit to use them.

WikiHiero: Safe to remove. It was enabled in the unforsee event we wanted to use hieroglyphic characters for a Just For Fun page or if needed for an imported Egypt related page. Neither has proven to be likely anytime soon.

ImageRating: Has received no use, can be removed, it's functions are not currently applicable to our project scope so far.

MediaWikiChat: Safe to Remove. Despite offering it as an on-wiki chat option, it's proven a very ignored feature, so yeah, we need to yeet it.

Alternative plan: I save Miraheze, again.

... Brent, posts like that with more than six words would be massively helpful, at least when it comes to determining whether it's sarcasm or serious.

Something to add to transition plans:

As soon as we have chosen a new host and have an idea of how long the process will take, turn ATT read-only, then get our backup. I know the last time was an emergency situation, but I would like us to do as much as possible to prevent data loss in this transition. (It still bugs me that I had to recreate at least one page, for which I didn't keep a source copy, after the Orain-Miraheze move.)

We also need to announce to the userbase what's going on.

Add to the transition plan:

• Clear the Moderation queue before setting the wiki to read-only
  

Yes.

(06-15-2023, 09:08 PM)Labster Wrote: [ -> ]Alternative plan: I save Miraheze, again.

Oh, that is very serious.  Sorry I didn't follow up, but there is so very much going on, and just figuring out what went on and coming up with a plan is taking so much of my time.  Here's my first written statement on what's going on:

A HN thread that I just found out about because I'm so busy

Honestly this week has been an utter shambles on so many levels, and if I'm really going to run things my biggest problem is that everyone is leaving.  The decisions made here make perfect sense in reaction to what happened.  But please commit to staying so I can say that some of our largest wikis still believe in us.

<nod> If Miraheze can be saved, I have no problems staying. The real question becomes, if it is going to nosedive for real regardless of efforts to save it, how much warning are we going to have?

To briefly swap to a less important topic, the Cult Classic category has been de-Ducked through titles starting with the letter "L". I am using Wikipedia to check each work as well as the work's edit history. If he didn't add the category and/or Wikipedia describes a work as having a cult following or cites at least one source that says the same, then I left the category on.

So... turning off Visual Editor. I just added an update to the thread, but haven't actually done anything yet.

Do we have rights to change the $wgVisualEditorAvailableNamespaces setting, as per the request to keep Visual Editor on for Talk pages? (Syntax here.)

If we do, then we set that parameter to false for all namespaces except "Talk" and "User talk".

If we don't, then we have to turn off Visual Editor altogether.

Is this something we can check (EDIT and update) on our own, or do we have to enter a Phabricator ticket and hope somebody can action it?

---

Oh, and I've updated All The Tropes:No Lewdness, No Prudishness, since the vote there was unanimous.

(06-16-2023, 07:14 AM)Bob Schroeck Wrote: [ -> ]We also need to announce to the userbase what's going on.

Here's what I added to the top of the Sitenotice on the freebie wiki:


So far, nobody's complained about the wording. Artists seem to know what I'm saying no matter how I phrase it - go figure.

That was added the day before Labster suggested putting on the superuserhero cape again. But "new management" counts as "alternative hosting", right?

(06-17-2023, 01:45 PM)robkelk Wrote: [ -> ]So... turning off Visual Editor. I just added an update to the thread, but haven't actually done anything yet.

Do we have rights to change the $wgVisualEditorAvailableNamespaces setting, as per the request to keep Visual Editor on for Talk pages? (Syntax here.)

If we do, then we set that parameter to false for all namespaces except "Talk" and "User talk".

If we don't, then we have to turn off Visual Editor altogether.

Is this something we can check (EDIT and update) on our own, or do we have to enter a Phabricator ticket and hope somebody can action it?

---

Oh, and I've updated All The Tropes:No Lewdness, No Prudishness, since the vote there was unanimous.

That would require Phabricator. Our base control is not fine grained enough in the config panel to make that change ourselves

Miraheze is Not Shutting Down

I think y'all will appreciate this more than most: it took twenty minutes to write that statement and four solid hours to edit it.  It's possibly one of the hardest things I've ever written because the stakes are so high.  I am so lucky to have found such a good editor, too.

Hurrah!

I've updated the Sitenotice on the freebie wiki.

I see that Borderman has left a comment on the announcement page. I don't know their qualifications, but it might be worth mentioning that Miraheze needs volunteers to fill roles that require non-technical skills just as much as Miraheze needs volunteers with technical skills.

And somebody (anon, of course) left a comment on the announcement's Talk page that I believed needed an immediate reply, in order to avoid undoing what momentum we have for this rescue plan.

(06-18-2023, 04:02 AM)Labster Wrote: [ -> ]Miraheze is Not Shutting Down

I think y'all will appreciate this more than most: it took twenty minutes to write that statement and four solid hours to edit it.  It's possibly one of the hardest things I've ever written because the stakes are so high.  I am so lucky to have found such a good editor, too.

Not all heroes wear capes, this is good to hear.

Indeed. Thank you for stepping up, Brent.

I haven't worn a cape since that PSA called The Incredibles.

I hadn't noticed this in all the drama but someone actually made us a backup.  It's here, because the file is too big: https://archive.org/details/allthetropes-backup.

I haven't asked for specific help, because I'm not sure what I need.  I found one person who is willing to do a full analysis of our tech, but he's one of the first to point out that a lot of these failures are because of community problems.  I'm thinking we might need moderators and global stewards more than anything.

Right now, I know what I need to do is to calm everyone down, reverse as much reputational damage as possible, and ensure new legal structures are in place.

In a blatant attempt to bring back some sense of normalcy to the wiki thread, I am posting to complain about how slow the wiki is today. When it takes so long to open an edit window that I've forgotten the edit I wanted to make, the wiki might as well just be honest and display a 50X error. Or pretend it doesn't exist at all.

I think the slowness is from rebalancing servers to distribute the load better.

(06-16-2023, 11:00 PM)Bob Schroeck Wrote: [ -> ]...the Cult Classic category has been de-Ducked through titles starting with the letter "L".

I just finished "M". And may I inquire why half our images aren't appearing on the pages that use them?

Just FYI you can't upload files right now because Miraheze ran out of disk space. Sort of.

Okay, I've finished going through the Cult Classics category. I looked up every work on Wikipedia (except for a fanfic which he tagged) and checked that someone thought it was a cult classic or included it in a list somewhere. Anything DDoD tagged as a Cult Classic without that verification lost the category. (This seems to have worked well enough, but I probably should go through the TV Guide‍'‍s Top Cult Shows Ever navbox and make sure everything in it has the category.)

Anything that had the category added by someone other than DDoD I left alone, even if I disagreed with it. (Rob, I honestly can't see what qualifies Tristram Shandy as a cult classic.)

In the end, I reduced a list of nearly a thousand works to 334.

I suspect I tagged Tristram Shandy as a cult classic because it was on the list we inherited at the fork. Mea culpa.

As for the navbox, it has (or should have) the category built-in - add the navbox to the page and you add the category at the same time.

Ah, well, then, I guess I wasn't as on target as I thought. <grin>