Looks like we're taking advantage of the move of "cranky" to Politics to try and hammer out the "What's the real deal about Haruhi anyway?" question - since it seems that setting up the flame-shielding might be appropriate, and it looks like there are some increasingly ugly cracks in the "CADU" philosophy. Those who wish to weigh in should probably wander on over and weigh in. Those who wish to avoid the potential unpleasantness - well, we'll try to come back with an answer everyone can live with.
CADU?Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
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Looks like we're taking advantage of the move of "cranky" to Politics to try and hammer out the "What's the real deal about Haruhi anyway?" question
Well, it's more "Rob's taking the chance to shove his opinion down everyone else's throats
yet again"... but I think this time people are willing to listen to what I have to say.
So, please, stop by and share your opinions about the proposal I made. If you don't like, please present a counter-proposal and we can get some serious debate going...
-Rob Kelk
"
Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
CADU - Canon Area of Doubt and Uncertainty. Used to designate a thing that we not only do not currently have an answer for, but refuse to have an answer for.
Okay. The "cranky" thread has been silent for a few days now, so it looks like it's time to bring back preliminary findings.
Rob Kelk suggested the following.
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Somebody - Hanako Sonoda, Harriet Summers, maybe Howard Smith; it doesn't matter anymore what the person's name was - really, really liked Haruhi Suzumiya. This isn't unusual for Fenspace - look at A.C. (who looks just like Attim M-Zak from Seraphic Feather), the Jason (who's turned himself into a Dragon Ball saiyan), the Warsies' General Solo, the Trekkies' Harcort Mudd... even Noah Scott (with his Stellvia fixation) fits into this group. However, this particular fan's "love" for Haruhi was a bit stronger than anyone else's obsession.
Whoever this fan was, she got her hands on some handwavium and used it on herself and four of her friends during an all-night Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu marathon at the local anime club. (Never eat the guacamole-green Pocky sticks, folks - especially if the packages are already unwrapped. When they regained consciousness, they decided to forgive her for turning them into the SOS-dan. Not that she knows she did so, anymore - something happened during the biomod and Hanako/Harriet/Harold/whoever now really believes she's Haruhi, and has incorporated the story's background into her delusionary memories. She also got her template's persuasiveness, but that's all she got in the way of "superpowers".
The other SOS-dan may or may not still have their original memories, but the ones who do are very careful to stay in character when they're around Haruhi and the ones who don't. (The other two girls probably would have their old memories. Believing otherwise would slowly drive them mad as they repeatedly couldn't do what they'd know they should be able to do as an alien and a time-traveller.)
This position received a fair amount of general support. The only actual dissent was not particularly strong, and largely on the idea that CADU was aesthetically pleasing in this case. therefore I hold that the consensus position thus far is that this be the form of the Haruhi-nature, by and large.
If anyone has a strong objection to this position, now would be the time to go discuss it in that little thread over in Politics. If not, it would seem that Haruhi is no longer God, no longer a canon character of any kind, and therefore no longer a protected character in quite the same way. We don't have to keep dancing around her like we were before. We can, but we don't have to.
There were a variety of suggestions for adjustment - that Haruhi have picked up some sort of subtle beneficial effects from her handwave (luck, insight, or the like), that the other members of the SOS-Dan have various reasons to act like they did (love, handwavium-driven susceptibility to the charisma, and the like) and so on. Various permutations of these could be used to explain the story thus far reasonably easily. Under the theory that retconning is a Bad Thing, and with no clear objections that I could see from the thread, I would hold that we run with this, and that perhaps someone (perhaps Bob? If you have the time and want to, she *is* about to be a resident of your happy little township in the sky.) could write up a more complete character description. For whoever it is that writes the description up, I would suggest reading through the last part of the appropriate thread for ideas on how to fit everything together, if you've not done so already.
If there is anyone who has a serious objection to anything I've written here, by all means note the existence of your objection below, but please put any actual arguments in the "cranky" thread in Politics. If anyone feels that I have not accurately described the contents of that thread, then I do apologise. By all means, likewise note that below and put arguments on the Politics thread, and I will be happy to discuss them with you there (and edit here, as appropriate).
Not an objection, per se, but it seems that the crankythread and this were done without reference to the last argument we had over the subject.
p202.ezboard.com/fdrunkar...=146.topic
is the last one; I like the idea of Haruhi being created as a diversion from the true overfan (well, I *did* bring it up...) but I'm not emotionally tied to it or anything... and it's pretty much just a variation on the "modded fen" theme, albeit with different implications.
OOC answers notwithstanding, I agree with the general idea of keeping things unresolved IC, or at least for as long as possible.
Indeed. You are correct. We did not refer back to earlier materials. If you would like to post your concept to crankythread explicitly, I'd be happy to discuss it with you there, and I imagine others would as well.
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If there is anyone who has a serious objection to anything I've written here, by all means note the existence of your objection below, but please put any actual arguments in the "cranky" thread in Politics. If anyone feels that I have not accurately described the contents of that thread, then I do apologise. By all means, likewise note that below and put arguments on the Politics thread, and I will be happy to discuss them with you there (and edit here, as appropriate).
Okay, I'm a-gonna step in and make an official Commissar ruling here:
Unless counteracted by Dear Leader Bob, all Fenspace argument stays in the Fenspace board.
So if you've got an argument, counter-argument, etc. towards the current Haruhi proposal, make it
here, not in Politics.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord
interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
Agreed. Politics is the last resort for really virulent disagreements.
-- Bob
---------
The Internet Is For Norns.
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Not an objection, per se, but it seems that the crankythread and this were done without reference to the last argument we had over the subject.
p202.ezboard.com/fdrunkar...=146.topic is the last one; I like the idea of Haruhi being created as a diversion from the true overfan (well, I *did* bring it up...) but I'm not emotionally tied to it or anything... and it's pretty much just a variation on the "modded fen" theme, albeit with different implications.
There's no conflict between your idea and mine, KJ - yours goes farther into the "how" and "why" of the biomod, while mine goes farther into the "who" and "what happened afterward".
If we adopt both ideas, then there's still an Overfan in the background - it's just that his/her/its/their smokescreen, the SOS-dan, become a bit less effective if the truth comes out...
-Rob Kelk
"
Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Quote:
There's no conflict between your idea and mine, KJ - yours goes farther into the "how" and "why" of the biomod, while mine goes farther into the "who" and "what happened afterward".
If we adopt both ideas, then there's still an Overfan in the background - it's just that his/her/its/their smokescreen, the SOS-dan, become a bit less effective if the truth comes out...
True enough; LIS, mine was more just looking at a different angle of it.
Of course, then someone's going to start getting tempted to bring the Overfan out of the bag and we have to do this again...
![[Image: wink.gif]](http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/wink.gif)
(joking, I hope)
The easiest way for stopping the Overfan coming about is to keep the evidence contradictory (in a 'This PROVES the Overfan exists!' to 'This PROVES the Overfan DOESN'T exist!') and inconclusive.
In Haruni's case, it could easily be used as an argument for, against, or of a distraction from, the existence of the Overfan.
Depending on how we pull the reveal (and how much we reveal), it could be all of the above.
I had a bit more to say about it than *that*, as I recall.
I can really see a number of questions here, some of them probably more important than others...
1. Are we going to decide exactly what Haruhi is? - Consensus seems to be "yes".
2. Okay, so is Haruhi real, or an obsessed biomodded person? - Seems safe to say the latter.
Going from that, there's...
-Do any of the SOS-dan have their original memories?
-Does anyone else already know?
And the big one...
-Is anyone who doesn't know going to find out?
-When?
-Who?
-How?
-?
Personally, I favor "None of the SOS-dan have their original memories, no one else knows, Yuki Nagato is going to start putting things together shortly after Noah kicks them off Stellvia."
This is largely because I started imagining the story where this takes place in my head today while very bored at work.
Irene: This bozo even managed to come up with a way to have us make an appearance.
If I knew of any other characters who were in the media business I could probably make it them too...
Irene: >.>
There's also the "overfan" issue, which I have no particular opinion on. (Well, that's not entirely true, my opinion is that I'm not entirely certain what the purpose or point of it is. '.' )
-Morgan."Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!"
-Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
---(Not really)
I wouldn't be surprised if everyone has an idea as to HOW we're going to reveal Haruni's nature. I certainly do.
Of course, IMO it might be better if we all have hints here and there in our fics. Thus we can gradually come up to the reveal without having to designate an author to do it. Spread the Cool out, as it were.
That sounds like a good way to confuse the issue again. '.'
I think it'd be better to just have someone do it. Then people can start reacting to it.
-Morgan, bets no one is volunteering to tell Haruhi..."Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!"
-Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
---(Not really)
Caertainly Noah won't volunteer.
Despite everything, he's not that vindictive. He'll kill someone out-of-hand, but he won't make someone suffer... not even Suzumiya.
(Edit: Although in the highly-unlikely event of this causing the breakup of the SOS-dan, he'll offer Mikuru a job. She's never done anything to him.)
-Rob Kelk
"Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
A.C., as she currently is, might if Haruni pissed her off. Which is why I'm not planning on having them meet until later.
Due to certain things hinted at in her character write-up (and used later in the current story), A.C. would know something's up if Haruni tried to convince her of anything. And she'd quietly let others know something was up.
So... does anyone else have anything to say about this?
I kind of want to either start writing this story, or stop thinking about it. And I don't really want to start writing it until I know there isn't going to be a decision to handle Haruhi in an entirely different way.
Edit: ... Anyone? ^_^;;;;;
-Morgan."Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!"
-Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
---(Not really)
Well, people know my opinion on the matter, considering I've gone on about it at length...
Consensus seems to agree with me in broad sense -- but we haven't heard from over half the writers and Comrade Fnord hasn't made a ruling yet, so this is only tentative.
There are disagreements in particulars, but nothing that affects telling stories set after SOS-Con is called... I think.
-Rob Kelk
"Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Alas, the story I'm contemplating is very concerned with specific details...
(Though, if you think about it, the existance of a Haruhi anime doesn't necessarily imply Haruhi not being real... Just in case, you know, things weren't confusing enough. ^_- )
-Morgan."Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!"
-Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
---(Not really)
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Though, if you think about it, the existance of a Haruhi anime doesn't necessarily imply Haruhi not being real...
Of course not! There were TV shows about Elliot Ness and Davy Crockett, after all.
Although both shows overinflated their lead characters' abilities... Just because Haruhi (or Yuki, or ...) did something in the anime doesn't mean she can do it in "real life".
Just muddying the waters even further...
-Rob Kelk
"
Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
I'm in favor of CADU, but since consensus seems to be against me... and it doesn't affect me much anyway. Ryoko knows Haruhi is god and nothing can disuade her from it and the Professor won't believe it (at least not without very solid proof, which everyone agrees won't be happening). That leaves Miyu and Catty and neither of them would care much if Haruhi is god or not.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."
I was actually thinking in the other direction, that a Haruhi with godlike (albeit not conciously controlled) abilities could have caused the creation of a television show about herself.
But that's not really too relevant to a discussion of a story where the general consensus (if not damn-near-unanimity) is for a non-godlike Haruhi. But hey, what's life without sowing a little dissent now and then? '.'
The part I'm not sure there's any consensus on is "Should anyone actually find out that Haruhi & Co. are from a tv show?" But I'm starting to wonder how long it's going to take for an actual decision. '.'
-Morgan."Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!"
-Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
---(Not really)
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The part I'm not sure there's any consensus on is "Should anyone actually find out that Haruhi & Co. are from a tv show?" But I'm starting to wonder how long it's going to take for an actual decision.
I figure that it's going to come out one way or another, no matter what the consensus is regarding Haruhi's, um, theological status. I mean,
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya is hot shit right now, and even in a 2012-13 where we're all In Space, people will remember that. It doesn't take a huge leap of logic to connect the Haruhi Suzumiya running Operation GREAT JUSTICE to the popular novels, manga & TV series from a few years back.
Hell, the "For Liberty and Great Justice" thread ends with a bunch of implicit threats to "out" Haruhi as the character. Which is how we got into this discussion again, because with the impending rubber mask being pulled off we had to figure out if Haruhi was God or not.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord
interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
I have to admit - I'm starting to get a twitching dislike for Haruhi, all in all. Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979