Cobalt:
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Ifurita got through the "Handwavium doesn't make weapons" rule because my guy M wasn't making weapons, he was making people. Most of Ifurita's systems are generic enough to get through.
Sorry, from when I'm standing, it doesn't wash. We can nod to Quickened mannequins/androids, but that's already stretching it.
For example, Ifurita, if the 'droid actually Quickened, wouldn't be much more than a sentient with marginally-better-than-human physical capabilities. No 'copycat' system, no beam weapons, nothing. Outside of, _maybe_, photographic memory and being a jack-of-all-trades.
Also, you're oversaturating a bit, I think. One 'android' after getting royally pissed is okay. You can write it off as 'weirdness' and shrug and walk on. Two would be stretching it a bit. Four? Sorry if I'm being a spoil-sport, but that's what it looks like to me.
Or maybe it's just that I get this 'eh, been done' feeling from it. Rob's already got the 'android/manequinn' collection, and it's enough of a stretch that it should be something unique. Besides, there was a lot more effort put into Sora and the others than just going ahead and 'kitbashing' them.
You've gotta have effort, else everyone'd be doing it. On a huge scale.
Oh, and you can't just go ahead and awaken an AI. Pretty much every single one of those Quickened on its own, and consciously working on making one develop has proven to be ineffective at best.
Sirrocco:
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If you're really attached to the idea of a traditional spindizzy drive, *I'm* not going to stop you, but I'd *ask* that you not. We've pretty much avoided persistent force shields thus far, especially at the "preserves atmosphere" level, and I'd personally prefer to keep it that way.
Actually, I propose that we leave those in. Just make having really _large_ ones eat up a lot of power.
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instead of some bizarre human-sized mockup of the Autobot Matrix, he stumbles across a significant chunk of handwavium just lying there. He's hiking through the woods maybe, or it shows up on his lawn. No explanation given. It wouldn't look like anything in particular, but could quite reasonably be having strange effects on the world around it. He takes it out of curiousity and starts tweaking with it
*twitches violently* Well, that's one way to know when you're supposed to post a backstory instead of saving it for a moment in the future. When someone else scribbles it down, offhand.
CD:
Nifty ... though it'd scan better if you wrote it in narrative. And with more paragraphs. Please? And no, I'm not going to bitch about the giant robot.
Bob:
Go for it. I, for one, see nothing wrong with lifting the whole thing. There's enough potential in the concept that objections can be pretty much 'handwaved' away.
Now, unrelated ... I propose that there be _no_ Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu/Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi novels or anime in the Fenspace setting.
Having it be present ... it sort of ruins the mystique of the whole thing, IMO. It just doesn't feel right.
-Griever
When tact is required, use brute force. When force is required, use greater force.
When the greatest force is required, use your head. Surprise is everything. - The Book of Cataclysm
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The company does reasonably well. We organise about 40% of all trade between Fenspace and Danelaw, mostly through individual Fen. I wish wed got into the rock mining business, but the other divisions do well enough. We also do a lot of wavium research for the Danes. And while Im Chief Translative Enhancement Solution Technology Researcher (guy who works with Handwavium to (reverse)engineer stuff) Im on record as the President of Universal Exports.
We'll probably want to compare notes at some point then, since our avatars seem to be in the same line of business.
Mr. Johnson tends to wander around, finding people who would buy or sell something, and then finding the seller/buyer to match them. In other words, a professional middleman.
Every deal he makes is special and for friends it's always top of the line. He also tends to make them ongoing arrangements and picks up a percentage of the profit (often from both parties). A good example would be his arrangments in Arizona where not only has he arranged for Fens to buy decommissioned aircraft, but also arranged that they can use handwavium to fix them up. He generally knows every single Fen who goes for this deal by name.D for Drakensis
You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
D for Drakensis
You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
In order:
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1) It allows the first four ladies to demonstrate just what 'wavium can do, for good or ill.
Well, with what happened at
that con with the spiked consuite and the random bodymods the (terrifying!) potential of handwavium had been pretty well established at that point.
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2) It gets me money to set up Universal Exports (via rewards).
As opposed to the cash in selling full-function prosthetics (quirks or no quirks)? Osama ain't worth
that much.
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3) With all the wave paranoia, I needed a way to allow Fen to stay on planet and set up the Freezones.
The paranoia isn't complete and total, though. Oz is still 'wave friendly (the one spined decision Howard ever made), and there could be other places that are willing to deal.
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4) Do you really WANT someone like him to get their hands on Handwavium?
5) Putting him and his colegues out of the way has the (useful to the story) downside of allowing the 'Danes to deal with wave-tech more easily.
Osama bin Laden is a Mundane. Scary, maybe, but
still a Mundane. He couldn't use handwavium effectively even if he got a package of it gift-wrapped.
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6) It hints to organised crime and terrorists that the future lays in space (another useful to the story affect).
Except that they'd already know that, if the money's going there. They don't need super-androids capturing one terrorist to see that. Hell, that'd be an omen to stay the fuck
away from Fenspace, if they're growing people who could do things like that.
To wit and to sum up: I find your reasoning somewhat lacking.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord
interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
Quote:
Sorry, from when I'm standing, it doesn't wash. We can nod to Quickened mannequins/androids, but that's already stretching it.
For example, Ifurita, if the 'droid actually Quickened, wouldn't be much more than a sentient with marginally-better-than-human physical capabilities. No 'copycat' system, no beam weapons, nothing. Outside of, _maybe_, photographic memory and being a jack-of-all-trades.
I can see why you'd think that, and I do have what could be an explaination for Ifurita's enhanced capabilities. However, I'm not planning on Ifurita having to USE those abilities ever again in the story (as I very much doubt such capabilities will ever be NEEDED in the story). Also M and the 'Danelaw will NOT let her off Earth if at all possible.
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Also, you're oversaturating a bit, I think. One 'android' after getting royally pissed is okay. You can write it off as 'weirdness' and shrug and walk on. Two would be stretching it a bit. Four? Sorry if I'm being a spoil-sport, but that's what it looks like to me.
Sure, I understand. It's how the idea wrote itself though, and I'm sure you know how insperation is.
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Or maybe it's just that I get this 'eh, been done' feeling from it. Rob's already got the 'android/manequinn' collection, and it's enough of a stretch that it should be something unique. Besides, there was a lot more effort put into Sora and the others than just going ahead and 'kitbashing' them.
You've gotta have effort, else everyone'd be doing it. On a huge scale.
To be honest, I only started writing this two hours before seeing Rob's first post. And I was very reluctant to even post it given what's come up in the thread. As for how he got them, M found pure, unadulterated first-gen Handwavium. There is nothing outside Haruhi that could do more. Other than a small sample he sent to the Professor before the guy got kicked upstairs, he used it all. Plus the fact that M was extremely susceptable to 'wavium and it to him and we have a feedback loop.
What I haven't stated yet (as I was planning to put in my next post) is that any other andriod outside those first four M eventually gets requires 'Mothers', i.e. A source of that original Handwavium. M doesn't know this, and the first four ladies have only recently realised it. The androids are not planning on letting him in on the secret ever.
From what I know of the Series (i.e. what I've read in these boards in passing), an acidentally created race of Handwavium androids that need human imagination to propagate would be right up Haruhi's alley.
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Oh, and you can't just go ahead and awaken an AI. Pretty much every single one of those Quickened on its own, and consciously working on making one develop has proven to be ineffective at best.
Which is why I use the 'blind drunk' angle. M is based mostly on me, and I'd
never conciously try to awaken one peroid.
If enough people complain about it I'll take the post down, but the reason I eventually put it up was that I could see a need for some of the story be Earthside.
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I can see why you'd think that, and I do have what could be an explaination for Ifurita's enhanced capabilities. However, I'm not planning on Ifurita having to USE those abilities ever again in the story (as I very much doubt such capabilities will ever be NEEDED in the story). Also M and the 'Danelaw will NOT let her off Earth if at all possible.
... I know there's no such thing as overkill. Just 'open fire' and 'I need to reload'. But I have to ask ... why even _have_ them if you won't be using them? It makes people go all:
"Oh, there's Boskonians/Reavers/whatever out there? Meh. Why didn't they just send out Ifurita to take care of them? Why all the strife, why all the trouble? What's the point? She could deal with them without even breaking a sweat, after all."
Scale them down. You can have nifty!power without going overboard. Hell, if you want to include the 'adaptive' thing into it, and absolutely must have 'overkill' in there somewhere, make her fusion capable like a BGCrisis boomer.
That way, you could at least try and circumvent the 'no weapons grade 'wavetech' rule - after all, she'd just be the interface. The weapons would be entirely mundane.
It'd fit the 'Q' role better as well.
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Sure, I understand. It's how the idea wrote itself though, and I'm sure you know how insperation is.
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And I was very reluctant to even post it given what's come up in the thread. As for how he got them, M found pure, unadulterated first-gen Handwavium.
*chuckles* That, my friend, is not a valid excuse. Or reason. After all, so did Katz. And all he got for his trouble was a lousy megalomaniac bugger of an AI with occasional bouts of A.D.D. .
If you want to get a better feel for Haruhi (and since you pulled the 'right up her alley' card, you damn well ought to) and don't want to torrent the anime, go here:
project.baka-tsuki.net/in...iya_Haruhi
And read the novel translations. Or, the first one, at least.
It'll help.
-Griever
When tact is required, use brute force. When force is required, use greater force.
When the greatest force is required, use your head. Surprise is everything. - The Book of Cataclysm
(Sirrocco)
Quote:
Oh, and rob - a few other issues with the dogfight. First of all, due to the limits on handwaved weapons, your railgun pretty much has to be hardtech, as do the missiles that the enemies are using. Otherwise this is suddenly a *much* bigger deal than some paperwork.
Yes, I know. Where did I ever even hint that they were anything but?
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Third... why is it a crime to fire railguns out as far as you were? Maybe I'm missing a bit out of one of the history posts, in which case, please correct me, but I'm not getting this. Earth doesn't care enough to include it in a treaty because it's a railgun slug - it's not like it can penetrate the atmosphere anyway.
Okay - something to remember for the re-write.
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Rob! Very Important! The very first limitations that we put on the Plot Devices, back before we knew *anything* about them, was that they *could not be blown up for Great Justice*. Period. Dead stop. I am sorry for the required rewrite, but no Kaboomite for you.
Why not? It's not as if I said, or even hinted, that it was anything but hardtech. Where did you get the idea that it wasn't? (I'll need to know in order to clarify in the rewrite.)
Quote:
Also... I think I see the problem with your generation of the girls. I hate to say this, because of the damage it might do to the character concept, but it's entirely too controlled.
...
On the other side, you did pump in a lot of guidance. Your robots *could* reasonably be the characters as seen in (take your pick of) strongly biased fanfic.
Bingo. (Why'd you raise this if you already knew what I was going to say?)
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It would be possible to amp up Li's pyromania
...
(This degree of pyromania would, incidentally, pretty much require that people either exert effort to stop her from blowing up things she Really Shouldn't, or get creeped out by her dreamy monologuing on the subject.)
It's not like she's had any "screen time" at all yet, Sirrocco - isn't it a little unfair to be criticizing a character that's only been mentioned in dialogue so far?
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Basically, quirks should be extreme enough to be funny.
"Funny" isn't synonomous with "slapstick". Run every quirk through the magnifying glass, and you end up with something as inane as a Steven Foster dub/hack-job...
Subtlety can be funny, too - watch
Newhart or
Fraser for hundreds of examples.
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Actually, in this world, Loyalty doesn't count as a disad at all,
Are you sure? Trying to kill your creator, or shooting up a con despite what your pilot wants, aren't the actions of loyal AIs...
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and nearsightedness is minor enough that it counts as a one-pointer.
You still have to list the characters' quirks on the character sheets, no?
(CattyNebulart)
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and to be honest I don't like your character all that much,
There are two ways I can interpert this. One leaves me with "I'm writing him properly", the other leaves me with "I've got a
major wetware problem here". Would you amplify this comment, please?
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Play the concept a little and see what you get.
That's what I thought I was doing...
-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Quote:
Why not? It's not as if I said, or even hinted, that it was anything but hardtech. Where did you get the idea that it wasn't?
I think it's just the ambiguity - it's a Kohran gizmo after all, and it's described as being Sufficiently Explosive that it
could be construed as weapons-grade wavetech. My $0.02 say that keeping the formula for Kaboomite mysterious might be entertaining, but it's also primed to generate slapfights like this. You might want to consider cutting it for the moment or outlining the concept a bit in the Gazetteer thread, maybe both.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord
interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
OK, it's become obvious that I'm not the right sort of person for this. I've taken down my story post and will not be further contributing.
Thanks for the comments,
Cobalt
I see one possible exception to the "no weapons" rule of 'Wavium:
Melee weapons.
Swords, axes, etc. are such a part of fennish thought that it would be ludicrous that no-one has tried to make, say, a katana with a monomolecular edge. {Of course, the sheath would have to be 'waved as well, or else any decent iajutsu practitioner will lop his own fingers off as he slices through it while drawing the sword.}
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''
-- James Nicoll
Quote:
Swords, axes, etc. are such a part of fennish thought that it would be ludicrous that no-one has tried to make, say, a katana with a monomolecular edge. {Of course, the sheath would have to be 'waved as well, or else any decent iajutsu practitioner will lop his own fingers off as he slices through it while drawing the sword.}
One-in-a-few-thousand chance, and even then, sharpness should only be 'enhanced' when dealing with the inanimate.
The rest of the time, you get such gems as the 'phase blade', which goes through anything ... and I do mean anything ... but flickers out of phase as it does so, and the results are only that the target is pulled along the strike's path and not actually injured.
The flip-side is, the so called 'rurouni' are now a fair fraction of the anime-fandom. Their swords/axes/polearms are high-grade steel, but left intentionally dull before being treated with 'wavium. That attitude lets them get much better 'effects' than modding 'real and sharp weapons' would. Though some are just plain cinematic, like
Sakurakaze's tendency to trail a veritable storm of cherry blossoms with each fast motion of the blade.
So, if you want cutting weapons that bleed people, the best option is still hardtech.
-Griever
When tact is required, use brute force. When force is required, use greater force.
When the greatest force is required, use your head. Surprise is everything. - The Book of Cataclysm
I was more thinking of the Gearhead fraction making a GoLion/Voltron-esque "Blazing Sword"
But I somehow see the first "Voltron" Attempt being plagued by "Mice from Nowhere" and "You must call out your attacks."
And let us not forget the one that was intended to be the lions Voltron but instead came out as Fred Perry's Leprechaun-inspired "Vaultron." Five mighty shoe-shaped spacecraft join to form a puissant giant robot.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''
-- James Nicoll
On the other hand, what about the knife that just happens to have a blade that can be tuned to be up to four feet long? There are legitimate tool-type uses for just about any weapon but swords, and when you can vary the shape of the blade...
Well. That just means they're better designs than their makers originally thought, doesn't it?
Ja, -n
===============================================
"Puripuri puripuri... Bang!"
I was doing a little brainstorming and came up with a few new factions that I wanted to toss out for opinions, although when I do get around to writing something with the Grover's Corners, I plan on using them.
The first is The Wizards. Harry Potter fandom. They like to think of handwavium as magic, and for them, it tends to manifest as things like wands that act like soft tools/weapons, and various other enchanted dingi from the books. They're looking for a way to make it do teleportation so they can apparate all over the system instead of taking "slow" spaceships, but they haven't made any progress on this yet. (And won't, either, because it would violate one of the ground rules.) One of the faction's goals is to build Hogwart's somewhere. Anywhere.
Related to the Wizards are a subgroup of the Babylon 5 Fen -- the Technomages. Functionally similar to the Wizards, only with slightly different window-dressing, and more reliance on biomods that allow "magical" effects.
A subgroup of the Senshi -- the Xenites. Xena The Warrior Princess fen. I don't think I need to elaborate, do I?
And finally, my original entry for the Grover's Corners included a new faction called the Supers, who aren't in the glossary yet, but I wanted to throw them up for consideration as well. They're obviously superhero fandom, and they're very pro-biomod. In fact, some of them are rabidly pro-biomod and are research how to make handwavium biomod someone more than once. Most members are already biomodded, and like the Senshi (with whom they are aligned) many members do the full costume thing. Only they do tights and capes and masks and... well, you get the idea.
Anyway, these are free for anyone to work with while I get my own act together.
-- Bob
---------
...The President is on the line
As ninety-nine crab rangoons go by...
Griever said:
Quote:
Bob:
Go for it. I, for one, see nothing wrong with lifting the whole thing. There's enough potential in the concept that objections can be pretty much 'handwaved' away.
I'm curious -- do you mean the concept as posted, or the full-size, 250-acre, 3/4s of a mile diameter original concept? Because, damn, I'd love to do the latter.
-- Bob
---------
...The President is on the line
As ninety-nine crab rangoons go by...
Quote:
There are two ways I can interpert this. One leaves me with "I'm writing him properly", the other leaves me with "I've got a major wetware problem here". Would you amplify this comment, please?
it's a vareity of factors,
1) new entrants at around the time you joined have been trying to one-up the existing characters in an arms race, and your character looks to be continuing the the trend.
2) It felt like an overwhelming number of characters that you where introducing at a very fast pace.
3) I just don't like him, for more of a reason than all the various reasons I can think up.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."
Quote:
Swords, axes, etc. are such a part of fennish thought that it would be ludicrous that no-one has tried to make, say, a katana with a monomolecular edge. {Of course, the sheath would have to be 'waved as well, or else any decent iajutsu practitioner will lop his own fingers off as he slices through it while drawing the sword.}
*shrug* Personally, I was planning on making my daisho. Unconventional alloys sure, but using (generally speaking) methods of forging and heat-treating fully understood by mundane science.
Who says conventional engineering knowledge gets thrown out the window now that we've got handwavium to play with?
Quote:
I'm curious -- do you mean the concept as posted, or the full-size, 250-acre, 3/4s of a mile diameter original concept? Because, damn, I'd love to do the latter.
Either.
As long as it's appropriately slow - as in, pretty much anything overhauls it and larger=faster of traditional Spindizzy doesn't apply - and basically treated as an 'artifact'. I'm thinking, pretty much any method to lift something that large into orbit should be a one-time deal. At least, for now.
I don't really mind the large size - you do realize it'll be a prime target for Reavers, right? For a number of reasons.
Besides, there's the whole quippage potential inherent in that ... I'd imagine your avatar would be getting more than a little exasperated with being almost universally referred to as Mr.VTOL (for 'Vast Tracts Of Land').
-Griever
When tact is required, use brute force. When force is required, use greater force.
When the greatest force is required, use your head. Surprise is everything. - The Book of Cataclysm
... gotta admit though, an invasion of Reavers could be properly dramatic. And rather different from typical boarding actions for medium-large ship-shaped things.
at 250 acres it becomes a land war, not a boarding action.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."
Quote:
And finally, my original entry for the Grover's Corners included a new faction called the Supers, who aren't in the glossary yet, but I wanted to throw them up for consideration as well. They're obviously superhero fandom, and they're very pro-biomod. In fact, some of them are rabidly pro-biomod and are research how to make handwavium biomod someone more than once. Most members are already biomodded, and like the Senshi (with whom they are aligned) many members do the full costume thing. Only they do tights and capes and masks and... well, you get the idea.
I suggest basing these guys on the Moon. In the Bottle City of Kandor (the advance base used while the city was being built is known as the Watchtower).D for Drakensis
You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
D for Drakensis
You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
So voted!
Many of the "Supers" faction I believe would be champing at the bit to get back to earth and do the IST thing once the 'danes get over their silly fear. "We just want to help!"
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''
-- James Nicoll
I thought of Kandor as their base on my drive home from work tonight; I just wish I'd thought of it sooner.
As for the Grover's Corners, it's slow but powerful. It can hover and lift its own weight, which is how it got off the ground in the first place, and I'm currently giving it a max speed of 0.01c. If anyone thinks that's too fast, I'm open to suggestions.
As for being a reaver target, well, that's for the future. I've just completed the backstory, and it's basically only been in space for a month as of the Con all-call. The crew have it parked at the Earth-Moon L3 point and are just lazing about, going "Wow, we did it", and basically getting to know the neighbors. They haven't actually gone anywhere in it yet except up -- the Convention might be their first real trip.
Anyway, I'm about to put an updated version over in the Ship Registry. If people want to troubleshoot it for story purposes, let me know. I've decided to go with the 250-acre version, because I can have more fun with it -- but it's also probably going to be a one-time thing, because I've decided it was a two-year build, if not longer, and its launch triggered all kinds of bad reactions in the United States. (And elsewhere.)
The crew hasn't been detailed yet, but I'm planning on them joining the Supers faction. Eventually they'll be biomodded, and as most of them are or have been players in Warriors' World, their biomods will turn out to be random grabs from one or another of their characters. I've got some ideas, but nothing firm yet. I'm also thinking that once they align with the Supers, they'll get into negotiations with NCSoft to host a City of Heroes server for Fenspace ("High Frontier" server, anyone?).
-- Bob
---------
...The President is on the line
As ninety-nine crab rangoons go by...
Fair warning, I'm about ready for bed, so some of this may not be entirely coherant.
Part of the background I've come up with for my characters (assuming I ever finish writing them up enough to work with) is that they started out as part of an asteroid mining company (Wing and a Prayer Enterprises). Most of the founders decided to retain ownership and set up house in their 3rd space rock (Babylon .5 Station). Earlier today I had an idea of one of them setting up the first Fenspace radio station, playing news (fen and dane), sports, traffic (concerning large objects in the Earth-Luna region, like arriving asteroids for mining and other things you don't want to stand in front of) and even weather ("We got some activity from a solar flare due in this afternoon, so expect some problems connecting to the net...")
My characters will have their own ship, a modified C-133B Cargomaster (I was inspired by 1 of the pics from the Davis-Monthan AFB link Drakensis(?) posted in the original thread) that'll have several laser turrents (inspired by WW2 bombers and the Millenium Falcon), at least once they get things working properly, right now they're just really impressive looking laser pointers.
I was thinking of having an exo-frame/powerarmor type suit aboard, mostly designed for construction, but power lifting claws and plasma welding/cutting torches make effective (if very short ranged) improvised weapons.
The ship and crew will act as jacks of all trades, if they spot a valuable asteroid they'll tow it in for mining, or they can do cargo/passenger runs, ect.__________________
The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live. - George Carlin.
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin
Quote:
And remember.... There Is No 'Wave Motion Cannon.
well... unless the professor builds one.
in which case it would just cause handwavium-saturated obtects to move in funny but nondangerous ways (line dancing, for example) within the area of effect.
The collective facefault from all of the people who misunderstood him right up until the instant he fired it would be *priceless*.
Dangit, I shouldn't have taken even a two-day break from this project. You done jumped my claim!
(The
Masaka, as noted in the registry I posted earlier, runs off the 'Wavium Motion
Engine, you see... and that was pretty darn exactly what its fearsome-looking main gun really does...)
--Sam
"We'll fight the Comet Empire, battle through the raging fire..."