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Subject: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Noah Scott" (bigcheese@stellvia.lib)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 13:14
To: undisclosed-recipients

It's been brought to my attention that there's been a housing crisis in Ireland for the last four years. Specifically, they've got on the order of 300,000 excess houses that the Irish government doesn't know what to do with. (It seems it was cheaper to build a house than to pay taxes in Ireland for years.)

And we've all heard the stories about how difficult it is to find a house in Port Lowell or Mos Eisley.

I'm sure you know where I'm going with this... but should we?

No doubt the Irish government would love to sell some of their surplus neighborhoods, and the folks at the Island, Hephaestus, and Grover's Corners have experience lifting acres of land into space. And while I suspect that Ireland would allow some Unreal Estate launches just because the UK doesn't like Unreal Estate, the Irish are possessive of their homes...

Also, there's never been any wholesale, organized attempts at launching Unreal Estate. The UN might get upset.

(There's also a technical issue - while there have been Unreal Estate launches in the past, I'm not aware of anyone landing one afterward. But technical issues can be solved.)

Before I go public with thinking about buying empty neighborhoods in Belfast, moving them to Port Lowell, and selling them to Fen families who are crammed into one-bedroom apartments, what political ramifications am I missing?

--
Noah Scott, of station Stellvia

(OOC: The http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/break ... 08905.html is real - apparently, their housing problems make the subprime mortgage bubble look like a minor hiccup. They have http://irishfireside.com/2010/03/08/are ... sh-travel/ too.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Subject: Re: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Gen. Mal Fnord, VVS" (fnord@sovietairforce.fen)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 13:25
To: undisclosed-recipients

Noah Scott wrote:

> Before I go public with thinking about buying empty neighborhoods in
> Belfast, moving them to Port Lowell, and selling them to Fen families
> who are crammed into one-bedroom apartments, what political
> ramifications am I missing?

I think the big ramification you're missing is tearing great big chunks of Belfast out of the ground and moving it to Mars. Don't get me wrong, I think buying the houses off the Irish government and moving them to Port Lowell or wherever is a decent idea; if nothing else it'll give the neighborhoods a little more character than Industrial DIY. Thing is, I'm reasonably sure that the Irish would like to retain the *land* the houses are on. Moving everything including the ground might get some people a little upset, know what I mean?

--Mal

OOC: God fucking dammit!
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

Subject: Re: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?

From: "Bob Schroeck" (rms@ourtown.fen)

Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen

Date: 2014/2/11 18:55

To: undisclosed-recipients

Well. I sit down to a little after-dinner thread-browsing, and what do I find but the next "cool idea" that's likely to upset someone in Washington.

Mind you, I'm all for that.

> I'm sure you know where I'm going with this... but should we?

Hell yes. Provided, of course, everyone on all sides agrees to do it.

> the folks at the Island, Hephaestus, and Grover's Corners have experience lifting

> acres of land into space.

While I can't speak for all of us until we have a town meeting on the matter, I'd certainly be willing to advise on the project. Dunno how well our methods will work in a predominantly Catholic area, but it can't hurt to at least pass them on.

> Thing is, I'm reasonably sure that the Irish would like to retain the *land* the

> houses are on. Moving everything including the ground might get some people

> a little upset, know what I mean?

Well, yes, but we don't *have* to leave a hole behind, you know. We (fen in general) certainly have -- or can kludge up quickly -- the carry capacity to move enough earth to fill in the holes. And if we can'f find someone on Earth willing to sell us that much topsoil, why not trade moondirt for earthdirt? We know the stuff's sterile, so we won't be importing disease (or the wave), and if there were buildings on the land it wasn't being used for farming, so its initial infertility won't be a problem. (And even that can be easily solved either by us or the Irish.)

> it's not like we absolutely have to do this in the fennish manner.

Well, I suppose if you want to suck all the *fun* out of it...

-- Bob Schroeck, Citizen-at-large and part-time captain,

Grover's Corners, Inc., A Wholly-Owned Subsidiary of the Bavarian Illuminati

The Bavarian Illuminati: The Original *Family-Owned* Conspiracy

Quote:(OOC: The Irish housing glut is real - apparently, their housing problems make the subprime mortgage bubble look like a minor hiccup. They have too many hotels, too.)

(OOC: I am so tempted to make a Monopoly joke here...)
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Subject: Re: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Noah Scott" (bigcheese@stellvia.lib)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 19:19
To: undisclosed-recipients

Gen. Mal Fnord, VVS wrote:
> Thing is, I'm reasonably sure that the Irish would like to retain the
> *land* the houses are on. Moving everything including the ground might
> get some people a little upset, know what I mean?

True, especially with the Irish history of not having control of that land for too many recent generations.

Bob Schroeck wrote:
> And if we can'f find someone on Earth willing to sell us that much
> topsoil, why not trade moondirt for earthdirt?

I suspect that, if anybody's willing to sell us topsoil, it would be better used around Port Lowell than in Dublin. And, as Mal has already pointed out, it isn't *Irish* land.

Looks like we do this the "hard" way, then. Which is actually easier, since we know how to land a Fenship, even a big Fenship.

So... Plan 2: Buy the houses, load them onto flatbed rail cars, and let the '999 carry them to Mars. (Assuming Katz and Maetel want the job.) This means we need to build a rail line for the '999 to land on at Port Lowell, and we need to rent some flatbed cars.

Renting the flatbed cars is the easy part. Building the rail line at Port Lowell is going to be more difficult. As far as I know, the Port Lowell City Council hasn't even decided where they want their commuter rail to run, or even if they want commuter rail. And I don't have the resources to buy the houses, rent the rolling stock, and fund building a length of track all at the same time...

Somebody's going to have to lay some track on Mars, and that somebody isn't me.

General Murleen wrote:
> 'Dane housing doesn't mesh with the Tatooine aesthetic we have going
> at Mos Eisley. Thank you, but we'll continue with the "pourstone"
> concrete housing we're building.

I should have realized that... Sorry about wasting your time, General.

--
Noah Scott, of station Stellvia
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Subject: RE: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Benjamin Rhodes" ([url=mailto:blackrider@roughriders.fen[/url])
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 19:43
To: undisclosed-recipients
Noah Scot wrote:
>Renting the flatbed cars is the easy part. Building the rail line at Port Lowell
>is going to be more difficult. As far as I know, the Port Lowell City Council
>hasn't even decided where they want their commuter rail to run, or even if
>they want commuter rail. And I don't have the resources to buy the houses,
>rent the rolling stock, and fund building a length of track all at the same time...
May I suggest a cheaper alternative?
Just today, I've been running the final tests on our prototype C-130 Space Hercules. They're pretty much like the venreable old Herc, except they can fly in space. And because they are so much like the Herc, this bad boy can land anywhere. Even on Mars. Without power. (Yes, it's a quirk.)
We got plans in the works to build a small fleet of these guys, but if I can get some help I'm pretty sure that we can expedite construction. In return, I'd be more than willing to let whoever helps to walk away with a few.
And Noah, believe it or not, Roughriders has the materials to build a rail-ramp. It has to do with the reason for the Herc itself. I've been working on building a corps of engineers so the Roughriders can better lend disaster assistance. I've even brokered a deal with Sumitomo Heavy Industries, Japan to build several space-mobile heavy lift cranes. Essentially they can be launched from 36 Atalante, land wherever needed, do their job, and lift off again. I can send you photos later, but for now just imagine the rail cranes they use at harbors and shipyards, only equiped with a Speed-drive engine.
Between my Hercs and the 999, this can be made into a reality in less time it takes to tell. So, what do you think?
-Benjamin
Roughriders of 36 Atalante
Would you like blind, broke, or bedlam?

Subject: RE: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?

From: Jeph Antilles (lordandmaster@jmc.fen)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 21:12
To: undisclosed-recipients
Benjamin Rhodes wrote:
>Noah Scot wrote:
>>Renting the flatbed cars is the easy part. Building the rail line at Port Lowell
>>is going to be more difficult. As far as I know, the Port Lowell City Council
>>hasn't even decided where they want their commuter rail to run, or even if
>>they want commuter rail. And I don't have the resources to buy the houses,
>>rent the rolling stock, and fund building a length of track all at the same time...
>May I suggest a cheaper alternative?
>Just today, I've been running the final tests on our prototype C-130 Space
>Hercules. They're pretty much like the venreable old Herc, except they can
>fly in space. And because they are so much like the Herc, this bad boy can
>land anywhere. Even on Mars. Without power. (Yes, it's a quirk.)
I've
also got another smaller round of the Blue Midgets coming off
the line in the next few months. We're at the stage now that they're
being built internally to handle considerably larger freight like, say,
a row house, since our cargo needs have gotten rather more varied since
the first round hit the black. And yes, while it's a rough ride going
in, they are fully atmospheric capable.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

Subject: Re: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Gen. Mal Fnord, VVS" (fnord@sovietairforce.fen)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 22:07
To: undisclosed-recipients

Okay, so the question of getting the houses from Earth to the destination is answered, at least in the broad strokes. Here's another question: Who gets them?

--Mal
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

Subject: Re: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Noah Scott" (bigcheese@stellvia.lib)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 22:09
To: undisclosed-recipients

> Here's another question: Who gets them?

Being a capitalist, I was planning on selling them to whoever wanted to buy them, first come, first served. If that isn't acceptable, then I'll need a silent partner to buy some of the houses, because I don't plan on taking a loss on this venture.

--
Noah Scott, of station Stellvia
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Subject: Re: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Gen. Mal Fnord, VVS" (fnord@sovietairforce.fen)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 22:11
To: undisclosed-recipients

> Being a capitalist, I was planning on selling them to whoever wanted to buy them, first come, first served.

Which is *exactly* what I expected to hear from the capitalist oppressor. I'd shame you, but I already know you have no shame, so.

I propose that the houses be transferred over to the Port Lowell city government and let them distribute the housing as needed.

And Noah? Take a loss; it's character-forming.

--Mal
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

Subject: RE: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Noah Scott" (bigcheese@stellvia.lib)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 22:44
To: undisclosed-recipients

> I estimate that it's gonna cost about eleven-million Solcreds just to
> buy the damn houses.

Only eleven million? I was hoping to buy more than just a few hundred of the houses, actually.

But in order to buy more than the first few dozen of these buildings, I'll need to sell the first batch, and plow the profits back into the operation. Hence the capitalism model.

But, hey, if the VVS wants to buy Irish houses as well, I'm not going to stand in your way. There are plenty to go around... And I can donate the final batch that I buy to Port Lowell and break even on the deal, if someone comes to visit her father and twist his arm.

--
Noah Scott, of station Stellvia
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

OOC: Awww crap! Rob? I fucked up. That's not eleven-mill. It's more like 100 Billion! Figuring goes like this: 345,000 vacant homes, multiplied by AU$300,000 (value of mean cost of new homes in Ireland as of DEC 2009). I was being lazy and forgot that zeroes count when you're doing multiplication.

OOC: I thought as much. But don't forget that we're only buying the buildings, not the land - as a first approximation, I'd say that cuts the cost in half.

And only about half of those 345,000 homes are surplus. The others are summer homes, corporate suites, and other rarely-used residences.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Subject: Re: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Gen. Mal Fnord, VVS" (fnord@sovietairforce.fen)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 23:01
To: undisclosed-recipients

> Easy there, Mal. I have nothing against socialism myself - it's a
> great system for smaller governments and communities to use - but
> when they grow up capitalism is a better way to go. At least with
> something as large as this.

Except that the people who *need* the housing the most will be the ones who can't *afford* it under your "grown up" capitalist scheme. A minor problem, that, but hey! We've (for values of "we" meaning "exceptionally wealthy person Noah Scott") got to make money on this somehow! Forward the free market & never mind that invisible hand giving you the finger!

Look, taking the hit on purchase & transportation is not that big of a deal if it means improving living standards in the Convention. A properly housed proletariat is a happy proletariat, and a happy proletariat is one that's less likely to nationalize all your shit ten years down the road.

Take the loss; if you're *that* freaked about losing a few million sols we can always pool the money. The Fed's flush with credits these days, and most of the major industrial concerns in cislunar & cisjovian can pitch in somewhere.

--Mal
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

OOC: Right guys, but don't forget that the housing bubble means that the government (or the property owners in the event the property hasn't defaulted back to the government) will be willing to sell the buildings for a fraction of the cost - pennies on the dollar - if it means they can reclaim the land.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

Subject: RE: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Noah Scott" (bigcheese@stellvia.lib)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 23:09
To: undisclosed-recipients

> Take the loss; if you're *that* freaked about losing a few million sols
> we can always pool the money. The Fed's flush with credits these days,
> and most of the major industrial concerns in cislunar & cisjovian can
> pitch in somewhere.

I'd love it if the Federation Council pitched in on this - it would save me the trouble of finding liquid capital that I could plow into the project.

But do the cis-Jovians have a stake in this? Is it at all fair to ask people who don't live anywhere near Mars to pay for something that's only going to benefit Port Lowell?

(Past my bedtime; back tomorrow.)

--
Noah Scott, of station Stellvia
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Subject: Re: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Gen. Mal Fnord, VVS" (fnord@sovietairforce.fen)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 23:15
To: undisclosed-recipients

> But do the cis-Jovians have a stake in this? Is it at all fair to ask
> people who don't live anywhere near Mars to pay for something that's
> only going to benefit Port Lowell?

Maybe you missed it upthread, but Jeph Antilles offered the use of his Blue Midget fleet for transportation; that's one of the major cisjovian firms right there pitching in. We do these things because we ought to, doing right by all people regardless of having a stake in the outcome. That's the whole point of the Convention, of Great Justice, of the Patrol, hell, even the astroball league.

Or at least that's how I was taught, and Mom, Dad, Upton Sinclair & Superman haven't steered me wrong yet.

--Mal

Subject: Addendum to my last msg (Was: Re: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?)
From: "Gen. Mal Fnord, VVS" (fnord@sovietairforce.fen)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/11 23:15
To: undisclosed-recipients

> That's the whole point of the Convention, of Great Justice, of the Patrol, hell, even the astroball league.

This brings up a point we should consider; in going into this house-transplanting project perhaps we should deal with the Irish government as *the Convention.* In this way we're *not* acting as a bunch of investors put together by billionaire Noah Scott as one of his wacky schemes; instead we're representatives of the Fenspace national/metanational government dealing with another sovereign nation. It adds that much more legitimacy to our operations if we do it under the banner of the Convention than under the Stellvia Corporation flag.

--Mal
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

M Fnord wrote:

Subject: Re: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?

From: Jeph Antilles (lordandmaster@jmc.fen)

Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen

Date: 2014/2/12 01:31

To: undisclosed-recipients

>> But do the cis-Jovians have a stake in this? Is it at all fair to ask

>> people who don't live anywhere near Mars to pay for something that's

>> only going to benefit Port Lowell?

>Maybe you missed it upthread, but Jeph Antilles offered the use of his

>Blue Midget fleet for transportation; that's one of the major cisjovian
firms
>right there pitching in. We do these things because we ought to,
doing right
>by all people regardless of having a stake in the outcome.
That's the whole
>point of the Convention, of Great Justice, of the
Patrol, hell, even the
>astroball league.
I do know that Serenity Valley could use a few 'prefabbed' structures to go under the upcoming domes the next couple of years themselves. Right now, the locals are pricing options for bringing in, of all things, _mobile homes_ to put under the domes. Granted, with a coat of 'wave for each, they'll be pretty resilient in and of themselves, but if better could be brought in when the time's right, so much the better.
JMC has the operating capital to do this one for cost, believe me. Besides, if it raises the standard of living out here, and makes it look better in the bargain? This isn't about profit, I'm thinking it's more a point of pride. [Image: banana-dance.gif]

>This brings up a point we should consider; in going into this
house-
>transplanting project perhaps we should deal with the Irish
government
>as *the Convention.* In this way we're *not* acting as a
bunch of
>investors put together by billionaire Noah Scott as one of his
wacky
>schemes; instead we're representatives of the Fenspace
national/metanational
>government dealing with another sovereign nation.
It adds that much more
>legitimacy to our operations if we do it under
the banner of the Convention
>than under the Stellvia Corporation flag.

It would certainly put a more humanitarian face on things. At the very least, people are only slightly less cynical about a government body getting into charitable potential over a _corporation_. Not that they _won't_ be cynical about our motives, but it's less easy to just point to cash flows that way. And we can show the Danes that we are, indeed, actually a party that should be _respected_, if not liked.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

Subject: RE: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Benjamin Rhodes" ()
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/12 08:28
To: undisclosed-recipients
>Except that the people who *need* the housing the most will be the ones who
>can't *afford* it under your "grown up" capitalist scheme. A minor problem,
>that, but hey! We've (for values of "we" meaning "exceptionally wealthy person
>Noah Scott") got to make money on this somehow! Forward the free market
>& never mind that invisible hand giving you the finger!
Whoah! Easy with the vitriol there. (O_o)
Seriously, I'm already putting forth a major contribution myself. And mine's probably going to be the gift that keeps on giving - I just know that Matel's going to love being able to make regular stops in Ireland.
I'm already taking a hit on this. Jeff's gonna be helping, perhaps entirely out of his own pocket. Noah has already implied that he doesn't mind losing a bit of money, but not the whole enchilada.
And there's something else. Do you honestly expect that these people are going to get something for nothing? I mean, sure, home ownership is a good thing for the community, but I got photographic evidence of what a neighborhood can turn into if the homes are just forked over without ever having to work for it. The neighborhood of my Mother's family is one such example. It used to be a nice little place, if underdeveloped. But, as time passed and one generation passed away to the next, so did the houses they live in. And, not having to pay a dime, the neighborhood turned into a slum.
Even in socialism, nothing is ever free. You work, so you get a safe place to live, three meals a day, health care, etc. All it does is that it attaches a degree of insurance against things going to crap in the face of adversity. Adding a pricetag to this is simply going to make sure that responsible and productive people live in these homes. And the last time I checked, while it's tough to find a place to live, there aren't that many people hurting for honest work over on Mars. If anything, they have a manpower shortage, and the housing shortage is responsible for that, in part. (Really, it's the terraformation effort - it draws quite a bit from the labor pool, preventing the housing industry from getting new homes built. Mos Eisely doesn't have this problem because their plan relies on mass produced housing.)
And something else you seem to have forgotten. We are Fen. We are self-made pioneers. We do not ask for handouts. (No, Midnight was not a handout. I earned her back fair and square over the course of O:GJ) If one of us lives in squalor, then it is because that person chooses to do so. There is opportunity out here that has not existed since the days of America's Westward Expansion. There is so much work available on Mars that even if you didn't get hired on by one of the existing companies then you could easily work for yourself. (Like what I did back in the good old days.)
There, now that I got that out of my system...
Yes, it would be a better idea if people can pool their resources to spread the impact that there is inevitably going to be. I'm sure the Federation would love to get in on this as they love humanitarian stuff like this. And I'm pretty sure that you might even be able to get the Republic in on it as well. I'll talk to the Senshi and see if they can spare anything for the effort, but I doubt it - they're still pretty strapped from the fall of Crystal Osaka. Are there any others here that have deep pockets?
-Benjamin
Roughriders of 36 Atalante
Would you like blind, broke, or bedlam?

Subject: Addendum to my last msg (Was: Re: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?)
From: "Benjamin Rhodes" ([url=mailto:blackrider@roughriders.fen)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/12 08:31
To: undisclosed-recipients
Mal: I thoroughly aggree on this point, especially if we can get more parties on board such as the Federation and the Republic. Though credit should go to Noah for heading the operation - or at least the financial aspect.
-Benjamin
Roughriders of 36 Atalante
Would you like blind, broke, or bedlam?

Subject: Re: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Gen. Mal Fnord, VVS" (fnord@sovietairforce.fen)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/12 09:02
To: undisclosed-recipients

> Whoah! Easy with the vitriol there. (O_o)

Hm. How about "no." I put up with too much capitalist nonsense in my life as it is; I see no reason to mollycoddle you lot 24/7. Sack up and take it like a man, or whine and take it like a libertarian.

> And there's something else. Do you honestly expect that these people
> are going to get something for nothing?

That would be the general game plan, yes. People without proper housing would get proper housing without having to beg like dogs. Wasn't that the point of this?

> I mean, sure, home ownership
> is a good thing for the community, but I got photographic evidence of
> what a neighborhood can turn into if the homes are just forked over
> without ever having to work for it. The neighborhood of my Mother's
> family is one such example. It used to be a nice little place, if
> underdeveloped. But, as time passed and one generation passed away
> to the next, so did the houses they live in. And, not having to pay
> a dime, the neighborhood turned into a slum.

And I have photographic evidence of what happens when you let your workers live in slums and don't lift a goddamn finger to help. It ain't pretty, Benjamin, not in the least is it pretty.

> Adding a pricetag to this is simply going
> to make sure that responsible and productive people live in these
> homes.

And the responsible and productive people who can't meet that pricetag? Well, who cares about them, they're just poors. It's no skin off *your* nose they're stuck in bad housing.

> And something else you seem to have forgotten. We are Fen. We are
> self-made pioneers.

I'm pretty sure Gina might object to your claim of being "self-made," considering all the times she's pulled your ass out of the fire. Or Haruhi for that matter, considering she's the one who got you your big break in the hero business.

*You* might consider yourself to be a Randian archetype that sprang fully-formed from Zeus' brow; *I* have no such illusions.

> If one of us lives in squalor, then it is because that person
> chooses to do so.

Really, Ben? *Really?*

I remind you that the whole reason we're having this argument is that there is a *housing shortage* in Port Lowell which means that people are living in substandard conditions. I'm sure those people in overcrowded apartment blocks would love to know you think so little of their *choice* to come out here and find a better life.

And that's what this is about, Ben. We're out here to build a better life, not just for us but for *everybody.* We claim superiority over the 'Danelaw, and yet people in the third-biggest city in the system can't find proper shelter? This is a *joke!* As long as *any* person in Fenspace can't meet their animal needs, or their animal needs are poorly and haphazardly met, any claim to being better than the nations of Earth is invalid. We're not perfect by any means, but by Lord Xenu and all the saints we should be able to leave the sins of the old world *behind* us when we come out here!

And if you can't see that, then I pity you.

--Mal

OOC: This comes off as more than a bit harsh, and well... there's reasons for it. Part of it's based in RL: my recent medical adventure has left me with less empathy for the 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps' argument than I had (which was damned little to begin with). Part of is that FS!Mal grew up in Fairplay, CO, which is not the most economically successful part of a relatively poor state, and that's colored a lot of his expectations re: capital and socialism.

So, yeah. In any case the vitrol presented here is strictly fictional and not aimed at any RL person. So please don't take it personally.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

Subject: RE: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Noah Scott" (bigcheese@stellvia.lib)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/12 09:17
To: undisclosed-recipients

It's amazing how much problems shrink after a good night's sleep...

Mal, I was going to do this the capitalist route because my pockets aren't deep enough for me to do it any other way on my own - I honestly couldn't see any other way to get the houses from Earth to Mars if I was footing the bill. But now it looks like I'm not doing this on my own.

And that's a good thing.

I hope the Federation Assembly, Repubic Senate, and Ministry of Magic do vote "yes" to provide funding for this project; it'll go a lot faster that way than if the seed capital was coming out of my own pocket. (I might technically be a billionaire - just barely - but most of my wealth is tied up in businesses and foundations; things that are keeping hundreds if not thousands of people healthy and employed and, I hope, happy. I can't just write a check for fifty million dollars without causing a lot of other people some hardship. The Big Six factions, however, can write checks that big without blinking.)

If the Federation Assembly vote for this, then a large chunk of this is going to be socialized housing just because that's how they do things, and the Convention *should* be in charge of buying it. Hell, let Haruhi run the whole project; she'd probably enjoy being in charge of something again, and despite everything I've ever said about her, she does know how to get the 'danes to work with her. But if it's a Convention project, then the Convention had better make sure that some of these houses end up on Ganymede and Callisto and Mimas and Ceres and Vesta and Luna and, yes, even ultra-rich Pallas, not just on Mars. If everybody's paying for it, then everybody should get a fair shot at the benefits. Heck, I'd expect one house - but only one - to end up on Wonderland if this is a Convention project.

(Yes, I was thinking of setting them up just in Port Lowell, but that's because I was thinking "unreal estate", which can't easily be broken up, and then I was thinking "ship them on a freight train", which doesn't currently have landing facilities away from Earth, the Island, and Port Phobos. But it looks like we've got heavy-lift capability from the Jupiter Mining Corporation and the Roughriders promised for this project, so that concern disappears with the morning dew.)

When you suggested last night that the cis-Jovians be involved in this, I thought you meant that they should help pay for it and not see anything for their contribution, which I think is wrong. It's obvious now that I misunderstood what you meant.

As I see it, we are now waiting for the Big Boys And Girls to pass judgment on this idea of mine. If they don't like it, then it's back in our laps to figure out how to solve this mess that I dumped onto the list yesterday. (And since it is my mess, I'd damned well better figure out how to clean it up. Somehow.)

--
Noah Scott, of station Stellvia

OOC: No personal offense taken, Mal. No worries.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Subject: RE: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Regina Langely" (redrider@roughriders.fen)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/12 09:20
To: undisclosed-recipients
>I'm pretty sure Gina might object to your claim of being "self-made,"
>considering all the times she's pulled your ass out of the fire. Or Haruhi
>for that matter, considering she's the one who got you your big break
>in the hero business.
>
>*You* might consider yourself to be a Randian archetype that sprang
>fully-formed from Zeus' brow; *I* have no such illusions.
Mal, WHAT the FUCK!?
Did you seriously just bring me into this? Because by now I would have thought that you would have known better.
First, leave me out of your petty squables. I may not start fights like my arch-type did, but I damn well finish them. Second, Benjamin has pulled my ass out of the fire a few times too. I may be a high-performance bioandroid, but that doesn't mean I can be in two places at once. And FUCK HARUHI. (Yeah, you heard me, so come and get me if you dare, mÃ¤dchen.) Benjamin could have walked away from her offer. In fact, he makes a show out of disobeying her when it goes against our interests, or even worse, the interests of the Convention.
In fact, he really didn't need her help in the first place. He only made that deal because it got what he needed sooner and left him with more capitol to work with in the end. (He just didn't suspect that she would incur the wrath of the US Government.) Make no mistake about it, Mal. Even if he didn't make that back-alley deal, the Roughriders would still exist in some form today.
Oh, and Benjamin would still be a Big Damn Hero because he already was one. He rescued Queen Serenity before the SOS-Con.
Oh? A Randian hero? Hah! He doesn't quite look the part and he knows it. He's too short and skinny. The girls only chase him because of his Tenchi Masaki Syndrome quirk.
That aside, he's a fighter and a lover. The Belters respect us because of the things Benjamin has done, and we get more young-buck Belter kids turning up on our doorstep than the Fderation, the Republic, and the Patrol all combined. We just can't hire them because we're full up. (We had to sell off all the clanks just to hire as many as we could!)
Sure, in the end someone else found Boskonian prime, but we were too busy with supression (the data on those battles, however, helped narrow the search area considerably). There were too many Belters dying out there, so we kept on flying. Some of us died bravely. Some of us died for HIM! Him so that he can keep on leading US!
So don't you fucking dare say anything like that about him or us. He deserves the praise that gets heaped onto him, even if he doesn't really acknowledge it.
Stop trying to pick a fight. Ben won't strike first and niether will I (as much as I'd like to). But if you do... Skuld help you because it will drag just about everybody into it. This ends now.
By the way, I am trying to be as nice about this as I am capable of and it took me THIS LONG to get a letter out... and AC Peters built my body. Think about that, okay?
-Regnina Langely
Executive Officer, Roughriders Command

OOC: Phew! that's a bit of a relief, Mal. You'll have to forgive Gina. She's very protective. Like a mother bear. Ben is everything to her because of their circumstances - when he could have done something like delete her or take advantage of her, he instead kept her from going insane. Oh yeah, she's a tsundere and she doesn't give a damn until you call her on it. Then she'll just kick your ass on principal. (^_^ Wink

Just keep in mind that any further disparaging remarks is gonna send her flying off the rails. Just because Benjamin made sure she didn't go insane doesn't mean she's always the most stable of people - she knows this, hence her usual restraint, but she still has her hot buttons.
BTW: Is it bad that she is in my head right now, giving me an evil look at the thought of a sign that says, "Please Do Not Provoke The Happy-Fun-Berserker"?

Subject: RE: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: Haruhi (taichou@sosdan.fen)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/12 09:23
To: undisclosed-recipients

* Hell, let Haruhi run the whole project

Don't want the job. Doesn't sound like it's any fun.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"FOR GREAT JUSTICE!"

Subject: RE: [smof-politics] Thought for solving two housing crises, but is the cost too high?
From: "Noah Scott" (bigcheese@stellvia.lib)
Reply-To: smof-politics@smofcon.fen
Date: 2014/2/12 09:25
To: undisclosed-recipients

> Don't want the job. Doesn't sound like it's any fun.

I don't care who runs it. But if it's going to be at all socialized, it would be bad optics for me to run it.

--
Noah Scott, of station Stellvia
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

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