Drunkard's Walk Forums

Inspired by this.
What if a sizeable population of Japanese turned Fen on us and we wound up with a faction of Space Samurai?
I'm imagining that their head of government would be a trifecta that holds an equal share of power amongst themselves.
One would be the 'Emperor' - perhaps a member of the Imperial family that turned Fen.  Standard rules of succession apply.
The other would be a 'Shogun' - one who is elected by popular vote and serves a set term in office.
Finally, the Chairman of the Space-Diet.
I think this could be a very excellent setup.  The Emperor is in place for a very long period of time and can help things retain a certain degree of consistency.  Meanwhile, you have the Chairman who is elected by the Senators in the Space-Diet, and thus he represents the politicians - and pretty much the upper-class.  And then the Shogun who is elected strictly by popular vote, thus representing lower-class citizens.  He'll need to keep their needs and desires in mind at all times if he wants to keep his job.
Any two can can call for a vote of No Confidence.  Even on the Emperor himself.  But it has to be two.  The Shogun can disagree with the practices of the Chairman, but the Emperor can say, "Tough, deal with it."  However, if the Shogun and the Chairman think the Emperor is off his rocker then he stands a good chance of being forced to step down and allow the next in line to take the throne... or a Regency will be appointed until such time an heir is available.
No Confidence is decided by both the Legislature and the Populace - both require a majority in order to pass, however slim it may be.
Why both?  Simple.  They learned that even though the politicians are supposed to represent the people, some still tend to look out for number one.  It's a failsafe, and an effective one at that.
Between the three, I imagine that they would mimic the three branches of the US Government: Executive (Emperor), Legislative (Chairman), and Judicial (Shogun).  The only difference I think there would be is that the Shogun will have authority over the military.  Of course, this means that they would be a militant bunch, but then that's how it was for Old Nippon.  However, I see them also being a lot more diplomatic as well.  Kinda like Japan just after it opened for trade.
Also, while they'll mainly hold to the Samurai theme, I can also see them welcoming Senshi and Mecha Pilots as kindred spirits.  Can you imagine Samurai-themed Senshi?  I can, I've seen somebody do the Sailor Senshi as they would look like in the Fuedal Ages.  And it was awesome.  (Funny thought: who hasn't seen Darth Vader drawn as a Japanese Warlord?)
Thoughts?

Quote:One would be the 'Emperor' - perhaps a member of the Imperial family that turned Fen. Standard rules of succession apply.

This bit right here sounds like a massive international crisis in the making. I like it already.

More later when I can come up with some coherent thoughts on the subject.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

Where would the new Imperial Palace be located? I'd suggest asteroid http://www.fenspace.net/index.php5?title=498_Tokio]498 Tokio, but the http://www.fenspace.net/index.php5?titl ... _Asteroids]Ninja got there first...

For that matter, how well or poorly would the Samurai and the Ninja get along?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Ooh, dear gods. The whole "Mr. Fnord Goes To Washington" thread seems to hinge on the fact that the American Danes seem to think of the Fen as their runaway children. Which up to this point was basically made sense (for them). Having an entire different foreign culture up there... that's going to change things immensely.

I guess the big question which affects everything is, do we add this as a new development post-OGJ, or do we graft it onto the founding of Fenspace?  (After all, That Con was in Japan... and now we know just who it was who tried to raise the Yamato...)
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

It seems to me that if we did this, it'd be a Whole Different Thing. It was Japanese Fen who did some early stuff... but this is more like people whose Fandom is Romanticised Japanese Culture (speaking of which, where are the SCAdians in all this?)
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

Quote:ECSNorway wrote:

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It seems to me that if we did this, it'd be a Whole Different Thing. It was Japanese Fen who did some early stuff... but this is more like people whose Fandom is Romanticised Japanese Culture (speaking of which, where are the SCAdians in all this?)

Agreed.  Japanese generally view the wreck as a grave site.  To raise it would be to desecrate the grave and disturb the souls of all the sailors that died with her - an unforgivable act.  Although I think they may not complain if some enterprising soul retrieved a small part of the wreck so it could be enshrined somewhere, thus allowing people to be better able to pay their respects for the dead.  The Japanese are very big on the whole respect-the-departed thing.  Go watch a movie called Okuribito (Departures) sometime.  (And have some kleenex handy if you do.)
Additionally, I was also thinking of the future version of Usagi Yojimbo when I thought about this, so Romanticised Japanese Culture is an apt description.  They got a metric ass-ton of soaps here in Japan that are like that.
As for the SCAdians... Didn't we already agree that there was going to be a sort of Renfair group of Fen?

Quote:robkelk wrote:

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Where would the new Imperial Palace be located? I'd suggest asteroid 498 Tokio, but the Ninja got there first...
For that matter, how well or poorly would the Samurai and the Ninja get along?

If there's a sizable rock out there named for Amaterasu, they'll probably settle there then.  Bonus points if the thing is a virtual goldmine of raw materials.  (But then, most are, aren't they?)
The ninja of the Village Hidden in Asteroids would probably have a luke-warm relationship with the New Empire.  The Empire's view would be that while some may not agree with their methods, they are still very handy to have on the payroll - if for nothing other than counter-ninja defense.

Quote:Bob Schroeck wrote:

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Ooh, dear gods. The whole "Mr. Fnord Goes To Washington" thread seems to hinge on the fact that the American Danes seem to think of the Fen as their runaway children. Which up to this point was basically made sense (for them). Having an entire different foreign culture up there... that's going to change things immensely.
I guess the big question which affects everything is, do we add this as a new development post-OGJ, or do we graft it onto the founding of Fenspace?

Yes indeedy, Bob, it does change things.  Really, we should have thought about this sooner.
I do like the idea of it occuring post-OGJ.  It'll be just the thing to knock the wind out of the US Government's sails... if we spin it like that, anyways.

Quote:M Fnord wrote:

---

This bit right here sounds like a massive international crisis in the making. I like it already.
More later when I can come up with some coherent thoughts on the subject.

Oooh!  Do tell.  (I'll hold my own tongue about my ideas for now, but they involve a lot of heroics on the part of the SMOFS.)

Bob Schroeck Wrote:I guess the big question which affects everything is, do we add this as a new development post-OGJ, or do we graft it onto the founding of Fenspace?  (After all, That Con was in Japan... and now we know just who it was who tried to raise the Yamato...)

I though That Con was in the northeast US somewhere. At least, Wave Convoy's origin story indicates that's where it was...

ECSNorway Wrote:(speaking of which, where are the SCAdians in all this?)

http://www.fenspace.net/index.php5?title=4860_Gubbio]4860 Gubbio

blackaeronaut Wrote:If there's a sizable rock out there named for Amaterasu, they'll probably settle there then.

Nobod knows whether http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10385_Amaterasu]10385 Amaterasu is at all sizable, but it's out there...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Quote:I though That Con was in the northeast US somewhere.

(checks fenwiki) You're right. I'm confusing two adjacent events:

Quote:August 31, 2007: Nippon 2007 (Worldcon Yokohama) - The first public demonstration of the power of handwavium when an enterprising fan refits his car and flies to Japan for the con.

Fall 2007: That Con - Enterprising idiot spikes the hospitality suite food with concentrated handwavium, causing unexpected biomods in the convention goers.

But my point is that the first public demonstration of handwavium in action was in Japan. Given this, why'd they take so long to get into space?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Quote:Oooh! Do tell. (I'll hold my own tongue about my ideas for now, but they involve a lot of heroics on the part of the SMOFS.)

Well, in the short form a group of Japanese expats wandering off into space and declaring one of their own Emperor is not going to be looked upon favorably by Japan at all. This is not an avenue we want to go down if we still want Japan as a fen-friendly nation.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

M Fnord Wrote:

Quote:Oooh! Do tell. (I'll hold my own tongue about my ideas for now, but they involve a lot of heroics on the part of the SMOFS.)

Well, in the short form a group of Japanese expats wandering off into space and declaring one of their own Emperor is not going to be looked upon favorably by Japan at all. This is not an avenue we want to go down if we still want Japan as a fen-friendly nation.

Noah glared at the visitors to his station. "I don't care if he can trace his lineage back to ÅŒhiru-menomuchi-no-kami! If he calls himself 'Emperor,' or if any of you call him that, then there is absolutely no way that the actual Emperor will ever let him back into Japan! What will his parents think when they learn their son will never see them again?"

Most of them looked at their laps. The one who didn't replied, "He is our leader, and deserves a title of the utmost respect."

"I didn't say that he doesn't deserve respect, just that you can't give him a title that someone else already has by right of succession. Perhaps if you were to call him..." Noah looked at the notes that Yoriko has prepared for him "...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sessh%C5%8D_and_Kampaku?"

"That might be acceptable. I will need to speak with the others."

"Of course," Noah nodded. "And someone will need to speak with the Emperor to determine whether he will accept a kampaku who lives in space." Before his visitors could glare at him, he continued, "I can put in a good word with the Prime Minister, and he could speak with the Emperor for you."

"You know the Prime Minister?"

"He's as much a maniakku as we are. He seems to be quite fond of my assistants."
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Bob Schroeck Wrote:

Quote:I though That Con was in the northeast US somewhere.

(checks fenwiki) You're right. I'm confusing two adjacent events:

Quote:August 31, 2007: Nippon 2007 (Worldcon Yokohama) - The first public demonstration of the power of handwavium when an enterprising fan refits his car and flies to Japan for the con.

Fall 2007: That Con - Enterprising idiot spikes the hospitality suite food with concentrated handwavium, causing unexpected biomods in the convention goers.

But my point is that the first public demonstration of handwavium in action was in Japan. Given this, why'd they take so long to get into space?

Given public demonstration may have been an English speaking fan, since he 'flies to Japan' for a con.
As for Asian interests, I could see them well looking at America's sabre rattling, while they quietly work on getting manufacturing capacity, assisted by 'waved tools and machines, that enables better electronic components to be made cheaply enough that Asian manufacturers take an interest in using those over terrestrial made components... and the American government gets a rude shock one day as they suddenly realize (say 2020s) that a sizeably minority, if not a slim majority, of electronics use components made in space with 'waved equipment.
The ripples as they have to struggle with new stringent testing requirements, or banning gear made with Fen parts, or just finally conceding that the barn door is well past the repair needs, would be amusing to watch.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor

M Fnord Wrote:Well, in the short form a group of Japanese expats wandering off into space and declaring one of their own Emperor is not going to be looked upon favorably by Japan at all. This is not an avenue we want to go down if we still want Japan as a fen-friendly nation.

That's part of the reason why I said it would probably be a member of the Imperial Family.  And another thing is that this 'Emperor' would probably view himself as being subservient to the Emperor on Earth.  If he feels that New Japan should be regarded as a sovereign brother-nation, then the Diet would probably follow suit, no matter how much they like to grumble about it.  After all, the ('Dane-side) Emperor may have no real power, but if he makes a suggestion then it might be a good idea to listen.
Hrm...  I can see it going down like this.  Post Fnord going to Washington, the 'New' Emperor announces his intentions and asks of the people who would support him.  The Diet has a cow and rallies what few Slef Defense Forces would answer them to arrest the New Emperor and the Imperial Palace comes under siege.  Other nations refuse to get involved (most notably the US because of their Anti-Wave policy and because some are very bitter from the aftermath of Fnord's visit).
Blue Blazers and Roughriders would probably be the first to react, with Rhodes and the Senshi providing cover for the Blue Blazers to extract the seperatist members of the Imperial Family.  Roughriders also put in cover and transport for civilians that wish to follow them.  (Their new C-130's come in handy here.)
I'd imagine that perhaps Maetel and Noah would like to help as well.  The Ad Astra is small, but very fast in the soup, and the Galaxy Express can carry the most passenger of them all in one shot.

Quote:That's part of the reason why I said it would probably be a member of the Imperial Family. And another thing is that this 'Emperor' would probably view himself as being subservient to the Emperor on Earth.

Dude.. no. That's not how it'd work. Imperial family or not, taking the title of Emperor doesn't mean a you're taking a subordinate position, it means you're the goddamned Emperor. I can tell you right now that unless Akihito has some undiagnosed brain malady, he would not be pleased with somebody taking his title, no matter what pretty words about being a "brother-nation" the new Emperor spins it with.

Making it part of the imperial household is even worse - imagine if, for the sake of argument, Prince Andrew declared himself King of Britain, never mind the whole Queen-Elizabeth-is-still-alive thing or the whole Prince-Charles-is-next-in-line thing. This would be a sign of mental illness at best. If people actually followed him it'd be somewhere between an insult and flat out treason.

So what you've set up here is a civil war in Japan - one instigated by Fen, no less! - with whoever comes out on top not likely to be happy with Fenspace, Emperor and trade be damned. Nice job breaking it, hero.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

What Mal said.

I suspect that Noah's going to have to shout at Ben and Gina, too... ("What in the name of the Great Bird of the Galaxy made you think this was a good idea?") No, Noah isn't afraid of Gina - in fact, he'd appreciate being able to yell at somebody who isn't unwilling or afraid to yell back, for a change. Besides, Noah can out-shout Gina (for much the same reason that Luciano Pavarotti can project and sustain an aria).

And, since this is after OGJ, replace "Yoriko" with "Yomiko" in the scenelet I posted yesterday.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

Ben would say that he's de-escalating the situation by getting those people out of sight and somewhat out of mind - after all, no one wants to see a blood-bath for any reason and that's probably what it would have boiled down to.
Noah would have one other reason not to be afraid of Gina - she actually kinda likes the guy. Similar character traits to Ben in that he's so respectful and considerate towards infomorphs. She'll get into a yelling match, but it would never come to blows.
But you're right, Emperor would be a bit too extreme. The trouble with Japan though... for the Imperial family, there was the Emperor and that was it. To my knowledge, none of the Imperial family went and became Samurai Lords or anything like that - for them it was all or nothing. Again, this is only as far as I know - I could be very wrong.
Okay, so it wouldn't be 'Emperor' in title. Instead it would be more like a governorship-for-life position with Imperial ascension rules. What kind of title could we stick to that?
And this way it won't go flying in the face of the current Emperor (hell, he might even endorse it), so there probably wouldn't be a sudden revolution on Japanese soil. More like the controled migration for a new colony, only with some hicoughs because a few politicians in Japan are hard-liners against Handwavium.
Although if anyone has any ideas for making it a little more exciting, I'm open to suggestions.

...maybe the Warsies can appoint him Emperor.

More seriously, why not lift part of an earlier suggestion and make him the Shogun? Keep the three-part government, but change the names a bit.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

blackaeronaut Wrote:Okay, so it wouldn't be 'Emperor' in title. Instead it would be more like a governorship-for-life position with Imperial ascension rules. What kind of title could we stick to that?

Didn't Noah already suggest "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sessh%C5%8D_and_Kampaku]Kampaku"?

Wikipedia Wrote:In Japan, Sessho (??) was a title given to a regent who was named to assist either a child emperor before his coming of age, or an empress. The Kampaku (??) was theoretically a sort of chief advisor for the emperor, but was the title of both first secretary and regent who assists an adult emperor. During the Heian era, they were the effective rulers of Japan.

--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

"Chief advisor", "effective ruler"? That's the title you want him to take to reassure the Prime Minister and the Emperor that he's not a usurper?

Uhm.

Shyeahright.

Not.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

Quote:Bob Schroeck wrote:

---

More seriously, why not lift part of an earlier suggestion and make him the Shogun? Keep the three-part government, but change the names a bit.

Maybe.  But since that is the title of a Samurai, I'm actually thinking that maybe they'll just borrow from the English ranking system of Nobility.  It's what they usually do, anyways. 
And I've just had an idea, one that makes this all completely legit AND adds a credible sense of danger to this whole deal.
Religous nuts are everywhere.  Sometimes they take things to the extreme, as we sadly see in real life.  What if there were extremists that felt that Handwavium was against the wishes of God/Allah/Deus/What-Have-You and that all Fen and those that support them are scum to be burned from the Face of All Existence?  Japan would become a target.  In particular, the Imperial Family because A) The Emperor has a Lasez Fair attitude towards Fen and B) It'd be a huge blow to the Japanese people.
After a rash of failed attempts and no luck in tracking down all the cells, the Emperor decides that to stave off the worst case scenario, part of the Family would be moved to a place where none of these rat-bastards could touch them - among the Fen.
And just to sweeten the deal, they decide to disguise it as an official colonization by Japan - fully legitimate and state-sponsored.  The hairy part is going to be making sure that these terrorists do not get one last stab at the out-bound colonists.
Better?
EDIT:  Sorry, Rob, I forgot all about that in my burning shame.  (^_^
Kampaku might work.

...
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.....
......

!!

*ding!*

Here's a thought:

Convention Thread GO!, Mals seg pt. 2 Wrote:"So," I muttered to Calc, ship's sysadmin and legal counsel, "we ever figure out who these SOS guys are?"

Calc frowned. "Not exactly. They're Japanese, but they're not affiliated with the Otaking or any of the other major factions." He took a sip of his Martian faux-Glenlivet and continued. "As far as I can tell, they only just out here a few months ago."

(emphasis added)

I can't believe that I forgot about this! Well, okay, I *can* believe it since it was so goddamned long ago, but still! The Otaking! It's the perfect dodge for having a monarchial group of Japanese fen who aren't using imperial titles and thus causing a ridiculous crisis within the Japanese government!
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

Otaking? I remember that little bit from way-back-when, but we never really established who he was and what his faction does, did we? Would this guy really build something that has the shine of Old Japan?

I apologize if it seems a bit critical, it's just that a title like Otaking gives me an image of the stereotypical otaku only with a crown on his head and fellow otaku worshiping his otaku-ness. :p

Maybe it's chosen as a disguise, precisely because of the situation, BA. In other words, the Otaking is a cover ID for a member of the Imperial family, and his faction is initially just the bodyguards, servants and hangers-on, along with real colonists; those who later join the faction probably wouldn't have a clue.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.