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HRogge

We all know, most countries on Earth are neutral or don't like the Fen at all... and doing something against it is difficult for the Fen.

But today morning while talking with BlackAeronaut I had an idea. Maybe the Fen could exploit the force of the free market for themselves.

Fenspace has access to a huge amount of resources, but most of them are difficult to sell except in huge quantities. But whats about starting to look explicitly for rare-earths in asteroids to mind and sell them at market price.

Rare-earths are very important for the hightech industry, and China is the only good source in 2014... nobody will be forced to buy anything from the Fen, but some countries will do it otherwise. Because they might not like Fenspace, but at least they are not a rival as much as China.

So Fenspace would get some resources... and some countries who will find it more difficult to "condemn" the Fen... and other 1st world countries might follow just because their hightech industry is too important to not to take the opportunity just because "DO NOT LIKE FEN".

Will be of course a slow strategy, but it might be a way to apply some pressure on Earth without doing something directly hostile like breaking into radios or start large pirate TV stations...

What do you think?
I've always assumed that's what the Belters are doing, actually. With the glut of common raw materials in Fenspace, they have to be looking for something special - an asteroid with a large amount of iridium (like the dinosaur-killer that hit Earth 65 million years ago) or some other rare earth would be just the ticket. The fact that the USA is still unfriendly towards the Fen hints that the Belters haven't found such an asteroid yet... but the search for (and discovery of) one of these asteroids would fit in well with the rest of the Great Age of Exploration that is Season 2.

Breaking the Chinese monopoly on rare earths would annoy the Chinese, of course, but the Chinese opinion of the Fen couldn't get much worse without it becoming open war, and I don't see anyone in Beijing being unaware of what "falling rocks" can do.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Honestly? I don't think it'll work. Oh, I'm sure that some free-market advocates will think it'll work, and there's nothing in the rulebook that says that people can't try it, but I can't see it working.

Let's look at China. The PRC is not well-liked by most of their trade partners, to the point that anti-Chinese sentiment is often not just ignored but supported by the people in power. And yet, China remains a huge chunk of the world's economy. Why? Because they have a huge chunk of natural resources and an equally huge pool of poorly paid labor which allows them to undercut prices in foreign markets. So China continues to be demonized as the next big threat (after those pesky Muslims) while still being a major trade partner with the first world. The money changing hands doesn't change anybody's opinion, it just enriches the exploiters while everybody else is miserable.

The same, I think, is true for Fenspace. (Well, without the 'enriching the exploiters while everybody else is miserable' bit. Probably.) While the first world (or second or third worlds, for that matter) would happily accept another source of raw materials the opinion of Fenspace would not shift. Because as long as the materials keep flowing, and the money continues to change hands, it's not important to the "Free Market" what the hoi polloi thinks. It's not a priority or profitable in the eyes of capitalists to shape an opinion here.

Where it is a priority or profitable to shape opinion is in the eyes of politicans, reactionary or progressive. For the most part, the political arguments have been reactionary: "Look at these Fen, these Others. They come into your homes, change your children into something alien and horrible and then take them away where you'll never see them again." That's not a rational argument like a cost-benefit analysis, it's an appeal to emotion. You can't reason a person out of an argument they didn't reason themselves into.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
I would have to say, there would be a good reason to BE a source of materials, as noted. It won't change opinions... but it does make it politically more difficult to attempt to lock out the Fen when the materials shortage would hit the economy somewhere, either in higher prices, or a sudden drop in availability of certain products.

Changing the emotional opinions will take a lot longer. This is in part because the Fen are, well, somewhere else and not immediately in the public eye all the time. This is the sort of thing that is effectively on the Blue Blazers as one of the more public groups that try to help out in spite of public opinions.

And no, as tempting as it might be, pouring handwavium into the food for Congress' lunchtime recess would not be an effective solution to the problem, either. Tongue
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
bah. Congress wouldnt be worth the effort. Now, if you had some way to get Guac into the lunch menu of the chineese politburo, I think THAT would put enough of a cat amoungst the canaries to be worth the risk.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-

NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children
Hrm... what about services like telecommunications? Being in space already, the Fen would have direct access to their own satellites - satellites that can be serviced and upgraded regularly and therefore have much longer uptimes and lifetimes than their competitors. Not to mention the simple fact that it doesn't cost Fen much to put a satellite in orbit. The end result would be that Fen can undercut the cost of things like satellite phones, broadband internet, and digital TV by a huge degree.

Another avenue of attack would be StellOil. Cheap fuel provided in vast, inexhaustible quantities won't make you friends with the EPA... But if you manage to undercut the cost of the competition enough then customer companies are gonna adore you while the competition might put a price on your head. Wink

Warringer

Remember Whistler Orbital Services. After the war they will be firmly in the business of servicing 'danes satellites.
This is probably verging too much on dystopian stuff we don't want in the setting, but in the United States at least there's always been a seething undercurrent of anti-intellectualism, most recently tapped into by Conservative Christianity and their paid political lapdogs. I could see that undercurrent being whipped into a dominant cultural force by anti-Fen efforts, possibly leading to a Luddite state not unlike (but probably not as parodically extreme) as the one in Niven and Pournelle's Falling Angels, where the U.S., in an attempt to keep itself "clean" of Handwavium begins to label almost any technology suspect and thus to be banned. While other nations at least maintain a steady state, and some advance dramatically, the U.S. would begin to backslide as both a political and technological power. And, in the grand tradition of American demagogues since time immemorial, blame anything and everything beyond its borders for its decay rather than its own policies and beliefs.

Just an idea.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
blackaeronaut Wrote:Hrm... what about services like telecommunications? Being in space already, the Fen would have direct access to their own satellites - satellites that can be serviced and upgraded regularly and therefore have much longer uptimes and lifetimes than their competitors. Not to mention the simple fact that it doesn't cost Fen much to put a satellite in orbit. The end result would be that Fen can undercut the cost of things like satellite phones, broadband internet, and digital TV by a huge degree.

I think you're missing my point: it doesn't really matter what goods or services Fenspace provides to the 'Danelaw, as long as those goods or services continue to flow, then the mighty free market doesn't care what people think of Fen. This won't make people (at least in the US) think better of Fen, it'll just make them curse Fen harder for "taking are jobs"... while they still use cellphones made with Belt gallium and operating off Fen-serviced satellite networks.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
Bob Schroeck Wrote:This is probably verging too much on dystopian stuff we don't want in the setting, but in the United States at least there's always been a seething undercurrent of anti-intellectualism, most recently tapped into by Conservative Christianity and their paid political lapdogs. I could see that undercurrent being whipped into a dominant cultural force by anti-Fen efforts, possibly leading to a Luddite state not unlike (but probably not as parodically extreme) as the one in Niven and Pournelle's Falling Angels, where the U.S., in an attempt to keep itself "clean" of Handwavium begins to label almost any technology suspect and thus to be banned. While other nations at least maintain a steady state, and some advance dramatically, the U.S. would begin to backslide as both a political and technological power. And, in the grand tradition of American demagogues since time immemorial, blame anything and everything beyond its borders for its decay rather than its own policies and beliefs.

Just an idea.
So, the 2012 election in Gernsback-2 was won by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_This_Goes_On%E2%80%94]Nehemiah Scudder? While some of the Heinleinians might be happy, I doubt anyone else will be...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Maybe the best way is to just remain visible as 'people' regardless of biomod... and not the cat-eared menace. Your average American is generally a decent sort who.... if you crash land in his back garden is far more likely to call an ambulance, or at least try to help, than 'shoot the trespasser' and call in the army.

It's just the anti-fen few have the loudest propeganda.
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--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

Warringer

Dartz Wrote:Maybe the best way is to just remain visible as 'people' regardless of biomod... and not the cat-eared menace. Your average American is generally a decent sort who.... if you crash land in his back garden is far more likely to call an ambulance, or at least try to help, than 'shoot the trespasser' and call in the army.
Considering that a biomod does not really change the thinking of most people that should not be hard.
Quote:It's just the anti-fen few have the loudest propeganda.
Sadly enough...

Warringer

Bob Schroeck Wrote:This is probably verging too much on dystopian stuff we don't want in the setting, but in the United States at least there's always been a seething undercurrent of anti-intellectualism, most recently tapped into by Conservative Christianity and their paid political lapdogs. I could see that undercurrent being whipped into a dominant cultural force by anti-Fen efforts, possibly leading to a Luddite state not unlike (but probably not as parodically extreme) as the one in Niven and Pournelle's Falling Angels, where the U.S., in an attempt to keep itself "clean" of Handwavium begins to label almost any technology suspect and thus to be banned. While other nations at least maintain a steady state, and some advance dramatically, the U.S. would begin to backslide as both a political and technological power. And, in the grand tradition of American demagogues since time immemorial, blame anything and everything beyond its borders for its decay rather than its own policies and beliefs.

Just an idea.
Too dystopian for my tastes... Do we really want that?

HRogge

Warringer Wrote:Just an idea.Too dystopian for my tastes... Do we really want that?

its nice from the Meta PoV to have some people/countries on Earth who don't instantly like the Fen, but wrecking them because of it might be not the right thing for Fenspace.

Warringer

Exactly. I may be new around here, but if I remember correctly, and reading the rules of Fenspace, dystopian ideas are strongly discouraged.

Having the bible belt taking over the US and have it go down the drain would be bashing from my point of view. Having been the 'Voice of Reason' in the BattleTech RR over at SpaceBattles, I have seen what stuff like that can lead to. Mainly the end of the story because everyone will either wank one side or the other. Bashing is not much better there.

As far as I can tell, Fenspace has gone on for quite a time without these problems, and retained its original premise. Do we really want to go dystopian because there is bad blood with current Real Life idiots?

Not really.

want Fenspace to keep its mostly positive outlook on life and relations with others. And for me some tensions between several parties are part of being realistic. The US being taken over by the Bible Belt and going 3rd world by loosing its current status is not all that realistic for me. Because the nice people with common sense tend to outnumber the very vocal idiots in the end.
EDIT:
Okay, sure I may have used a little bit of that for my part, but seeing that its established already, there should be little in the way of problems.
Considering most of us get painted with the crazy brush along with the actual crazies in the bible belt by others. It also doesn't help that our sort of crazies tend to be very vocal and visible. While the rest of us believe in God, but just want to get on with our lives and feed our families. While there would be some shock at the sudden appearance of 'wavium. It'll turn into apathy once most of us realize it isn't going to suddenly take over the world, followed by a backlash at the Republican leadership for their continued McCarthyism and Red Scare tactics. This will take a few years to play out thou maybe even slightly longer then a decade.
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Sabre Fang
Dakota
Well, this went in totally expected directions.

Here's the deal, comrades: If you can continue discussing this topic without veering into EPIC DYSTOPIA territory because the US didn't ask the prettiest princess out to the school dance, this thread can stay open. If not, then not.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
Hmmmmm... Considering that many (but not all) of the best-and-brightest thinkers and inventors all over the world are fen of one sort or another, it's possible that technological development all over Earth will slow because a noticeable fraction of the innovators are in space. Fenspace doesn't pick up the slack because the Convention's technological support base is small even if it is advanced. The USA and a few other countries wouldn't like losing their innovative edge, and some people would blame the Fen for "stealing" all those willing emigrants. Result: the situation as described in the FenWiki.

This doesn't have to lead to a dystopia - in fact, flattening the technology curve could be a good thing for storytelling purposes. We wouldn't have to imagine what the world will look like with five or ten years of research into handwavium and the Whole Fenspace Catalog, because it will still look much like the world of today but with flying cars and the occasional super-gadget. (And if the Singularity really is coming, this would slow its approach and give us time to write about it.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
The problem with that is that some fen, in particular the Institute are dedicated to narrowing the schism between fen and 'dane. They don't do it by shoving it in peoples' faces, though. Blackstone and company play the long game, shifting perceptions of the youth and less-close-minded toward acceptance and understanding. Keep in mind that Blackstone himself is one of the older fen; he has literally experienced the development of geek culture into the mainstream over forty years or so of life. He knows it happens, and he understands that if he doesn't shove things into 'danes' faces, but rather is there, smiling and helpful, when they look and see, then they'll realize that fen are Just People.
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com

"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."

HRogge

Ebony Wrote:The problem with that is that some fen, in particular the Institute are dedicated to narrowing the schism between fen and 'dane. They don't do it by shoving it in peoples' faces, though. Blackstone and company play the long game, shifting perceptions of the youth and less-close-minded toward acceptance and understanding. Keep in mind that Blackstone himself is one of the older fen; he has literally experienced the development of geek culture into the mainstream over forty years or so of life. He knows it happens, and he understands that if he doesn't shove things into 'danes' faces, but rather is there, smiling and helpful, when they look and see, then they'll realize that fen are Just People.
Thats why I wrote "in the long run" in the thread title.

Getting a good economic trade with the 1st world will not magically solve all problems, but it makes sure that there are some mayor companies that like to continue to trade with Fenspace. And this will influence politics in the long run too.

There will be always crazy "burn all Fen with fire" people on Earth, but thats true for many other things too (burn Darwins theories with fire, ...). But as long as they stay a minority its okay.

Warringer

Take a look at all the things that were first painted at being the devil and eventually accepted and became part of normal every day life.

Steam Engines, Trains, Rock...

Handwaviums is just the last of the big paradigm shifts and they always get negative reactions at first...
I honestly think that the Dystopia is highly unlikely.

As noted, unless some sort of demogogue uses them as a whipping post to get elected the way Hitler did the Jews, the US public is going to pay very little attention to them.

It's a historical fact that the better the economy, the more likely the US is to elect a liberal as President, and an established part of FenSpace history that trade with Fen, even indirectly, is seriously improving the US economy.

A relatively sane liberal (Like, say, Bill Clinton was) is very likely to slow or outright reverse the trends we're seeing under, IIRC, President Cuomo, and while I wouldn't expect to see things terribly warm right away, the kind of anti-fen wasteland proposed is not going to happen.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
I was kicking around the idea of a conservative party forming that gotten tired of hearing the same anti-fen crap from the Republican leadership after a few years and starts actively undermining their efforts. Thus between them getting pro-fen republicans and conservatives elected and hamstringing Republican leadership's efforts. As well as a  solid push by the Dems for the presidency. 
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Sabre Fang
Dakota