There's the first two questions:
- Coins or Pentacles? (Businesspeople or mystics?)
- Staves or Wands? (Fighters or makers?)
Oh, and Rider-Waite has illustrations on all the cards, not just the courts and the trumps.
And the page is up, tagged as Work In Progress:
http://www.fenspace.net/index.php5?titl ... Tarot_Deck
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
For those who need it, this looks like the best reference for the Suits, unless Rob knows a better one.
http://www.tarotteachings.com/tarot-suit-chart.html
And a reference to individual ranks of the suits are available here.
http://www.tarotteachings...tarot-card-meanings.html
Coins might well be represented by various factions and members that help keep the physical engines of commerce running in Fenspace, predominately the mining and shipping concerns. Cups would be well represented by those who watch the emotional and physical health of Fenspace citizens. But I could also be misreading the generalities.
--
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
JFerio Wrote:For those who need it, this looks like the best reference for the Suits, unless Rob knows a better one.
I've been using
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider-Waite_tarot_deck]Wikipedia, mainly because it doesn't go too deeply into the mysticism...
(And they say Rider-Waite names the suits as wands, pentacles, cups, and swords, in that order.)
Edit: Copying for the other wiki:
Quote:In tarot, the suit of wands or batons can be used like one of the suits of playing cards (in traditional games) or as a divination tool. It corresponds to the suit of clubs in conventional playing cards.
In divination, the suit of wands represents the element of fire and gives information relating to the traits of the fire element in astrology. Additionally it represents the peasant or farmer class of feudal society (the Latin suit is commonly called Staves or Rods), and relates to simplicity and to nature, as well as to poverty and submission.
In The Book of Thoth, the suit of wands is associated with the action of the Will and the element of fire.
The suit represents the rural Third Estate (the farmers, laborers, and peasants).
Quote:The Suit of Coins or Pentacles is used in Latin suited playing cards, including tarot decks, and corresponds to the Suit of Diamonds in conventional playing cards. In divinatory and occult tarot, it is part of what is called the "Minor Arcana". Like the other tarot suits, it contains fourteen cards: ace (one), two through ten, page, knight, queen and king.
The suit represents the urban Third Estate (the merchants, artisans, and town-dwellers).
Divinatory and occult meanings
In occult and divinatory usage the suit is connected with the classical element of Earth, the physical body and possessions or wealth. Coins as a Latin suit represent the feudal class of merchants and traders, and therefore to worldly matters in general. Associated physical characteristics include dark hair and eyes, dark complexion, and sturdy build.
In the Rider-Waite tarot deck and derivative decks, the suit is called the suit of pentacles, and each card incorporates one or more discs each displaying a pentagram. In the Book of Thoth it is called the suit of discs, and the cards are associated with the Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn signs of the Zodiac.
Quote:The suit of cups is one of the four suits of Latin-suited playing cards, such as tarot. The suit of hearts is derived from the suit of cups. These are sometimes referred to as chalices as well as cups. The element of cups is water, and the suit of cups pertains to situations and events of an emotional nature. As such, when the tarot is used in divination, many cups signify an emotional issue or love situation, or some event that affects the querent emotionally. The watery astrological signs are Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces. Additionally, cups were the symbol of the clergy in feudal times, and thus cup cards can also be interpreted as having to do with spiritual or religious matters.
The suit represents the First Estate (the Clergy).
Divinatory and occult meanings
Ace of Cups: Aces always indicate beginnings. Here the ace of cups indicates a new beginning of an emotional nature. It can signify the birth of a child, or the beginning of a love situation that affects us deeply. It is generally a card of happiness, and the beginning of many blessings.
Two of Cups: Two of any suit indicates duality. Here it indicates two minds and hearts coming together and functioning as one. The card portrays a young man and a woman each bearing a cup, as if presenting it to one another. Above is the red lion of strength and courage.
Three of Cups: The three Graces dance and cavort, each maiden bearing a cup. It indicates a time of merriment and celebration.
Four of Cups: A young man sits under a tree. One thinks of Buddha under the bodhi tree, sitting crosslegged, but this youth is not serene. He seems dissatisfied with the three cups before him. A hand from a cloud offers him a fourth cup, but the youth shows no interest. It indicates a period of ennui and boredom, where nothing seems to be satisfying.
Five of Cups: A hooded figure with bowed head seems to mourn the 3 cups spilled before him. Behind the cloaked figure stand two cups, upright. The 5 of any suit can be considered difficult. Here it indicates hopes that have been dashed, or mourning over something that is lost. The hooded figure remains unaware of the two cups still standing behind—so the situation is not completely hopeless.
Six of Cups: Two youths play in a garden, surrounded by six cups. This card can indicate happy memories, as well as a certain clinging to the past and how things used to be. It can also indicate an invitation or gift coming from someone in your past.
Seven of Cups: A young person sees seven cups among the clouds and visions therein. On one cup is the perfect lover or mate all people idealize. Another cup shows riches, another the cloaked soul of the querent about to be revealed, another castles. Other cups show a red dragon of inflamed passion and emotion, as well as a snake arising from another cup. The card is a caution against over idealizing your situation and getting your head lost among the clouds. Your dreams need a firm foundation in order to take root. Do not build castles in the air and fantasize without taking responsibility for your actions.
Eight of Cups: Eight cups are arranged in a row. A figure leaves these cups behind as if beginning a journey. An indifferent moon looks down upon the traveler. The traveler is in a good situation where there is much promise and much to offer, but chooses to set out for the unknown. It indicates a restlessness and wanderlust as well as overlooking the good we already possess, in the hopes of finding something else.
Nine of Cups: This is known as the "wish" card. A well fed, self satisfied individual sits with nine cups behind. It indicates a table of plenty and getting everything you desire. It is the wish card, meaning your wish will come true.
Ten of Cups: A husband and wife join arms looking up at the rainbow over their house. Two young children dance. Ten cups are seen among the rainbow. It is a card of happiness, completion of all plans to your satisfaction, and a card of fulfillment and a sense of wholeness. A happy marriage and family life.
Page of Cups: A dreamy youth holds a cup from wherein a fish pokes its head. This indicates a versatile individual, one who have the gift of intuition and insight. The card indicates a youth with a love for the arts, poetry and music and may be very fond of dancing. It indicates ease in ones affairs as well as news of enjoyment and entertainment.
Knight of Cups: A young man on a horse with a winged helmet offers a cup. The card can indicate a sensitive male, unmarried, a suitor who seeks the hand of a lady. He is honest and truthful, as well as is heartfelt. It can also indicate a matter of an emotional nature that is occurring in the querent's life.
Queen of Cups: A queen on her throne at the seaside holds a cup she looks into. She sees visions within. It indicates a woman who has the gift of intuition and is able to offer good advice. She also may harbour a secret she is willing to share with you.
King of Cups: A king holding a scepter floats upon the water. It indicates someone who is kind, even tempered, balanced and wise. He may be a member of the clergy, or a counselor, professor or psychologist, doctor. He is a symbol of quiet strength and is calming and reassurring.
Quote:The Suit of Swords is a suit found in playing cards using the Italian and Spanish suits. It is also found in Latin Suited Tarot Cards. It's equivalent to Spades in Anglo-American playing cards.
The suit represents the Second Estate (The Nobles).
Common divinatory meanings
Swords correspond to the element of Air, and as such signifies freedom but also quick change. The Swords suit also traditionally represented the military, which implies strength, power and authority, but also responsibility, violence and suffering.
* Ace of Swords: The Reaver. Indicates decisive ability. Cutting through confusion. Taking a radical decision or standpoint. The ability to see through deception, and expose it.
* Two of Swords: The Choice. The two of swords indicates doubt over decisions. A sense of powerlessness and apathy giving way to fear. If the other cards in the spread are favourable, then the Two of Swords can indicate lack of bias and even mindedness.
* Three of Swords: The Wound. This card represents the aspect of the mind which is overly critical, especially of itself. The perverse impulse to dissect a problem beyond the point of usefulness. The three swords are often depicted piercing a bleeding heart. The swords symbolise the intellect, and the heart, the emotions which always suffer under this treatment.
* Four of Swords: The Effigy. The four of swords symbolises avoidance. Setting problems to the side, (the swords on the wall), while one prays for deliverance. This card can also represent surrender, or in some cases, pacifism.
* Five of Swords: The Traitor. This card symbolises victory by betrayal. The emptiness which descends after a harsh struggle. The alienation of others through belligerence.
* Six of Swords: The Boatman. A dangerous journey. Readers do not always agree on the alignment of this card. It can indicate a doomed endeavour, or conversely, moving out of troubled waters. It also indicates responsibility for others.
* Seven of Swords: The Thief. This card represents covert activities. The attempt to get away with too much, and being compromised as a result. If the reading is favourable, the card may represent making sacrifices to move ahead. Simplifying.
* Eight of Swords: The Prisoner. Feeling trapped and oppressed by others, and powerless to change. Often the condition is self imposed, but the cause is attributed to external influences. This card can also indicate the stubborn adherence to an ideal.
* Nine of Swords: Terror, the Nightmare. Tarot readers do not generally like to categorise cards as "bad", or "good" but The Nine of Swords is probably the most dreaded card in the deck, however it can indicate the process of letting go, grief, and in combination with healing cards like The Queen of Wands, it is highly beneficial.
* Ten of Swords: The Corpse. The nightmare in The Nine of Swords comes to an end in The Ten. There may be exhaustion, and the result may not be ideal but the ordeal is over and the truth has been outed. The Ten of Swords can also indicate the end of a repetitious cycle. Divorce.
* Page of Swords: The Spy. The ability to observe others keenly, while concealing one's own nature. The talent for keeping secrets. Keeping one's head in the face of danger. The ability to endure suspense.
* Knight of Swords: The Berserker. Wrath. Impatience. Fanaticism. Blind addiction to action as opposed to thought. Also may indicate initiative and courage.
* Queen of Swords: The Widow, or necromancer. This card symbolises independence, at its best. Power, intelligence, tactical thinking. The ability to streamline a problem, and find the solution without fuss. At worst, The Queen of Swords can represent isolation, depression and cruelty.
* King of Swords: The Warlord. Discipline with passion. Power and insight. Can symbolise tyranny.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Sounds like Staves can represent mining, manufacturing and agricultural interests, such as RockHounds and Hephaetus.
Coins would be the shipping and trading concerns, like JMC, Stellvia and The Island.
Swords would involve Supers, Great Justice, Roughriders, and Panzer Gruppe.
Cups would be groups like the Blue Blazers/Banzai Foundation, International Rescue, Candy Apple Red's, and the Catgirls.
--
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
I think tying the suits directly to discrete arms/companies/factions/etc of Fenspace is far too limiting, FWIW. Remember, the tarot is symbolic, so don't be afraid to generalize, make connections to events and objects as well as people, and even take it to non-Fen people as well.
Mr. Fnord
interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
I agree with Mal. Symbolic images are better than tying it to specific factions.
Use images from associated factions for the card illustrations, yes, though.
Let's see..
Wands = Fire = Common Man
Fenspace Symbol: Rocket. This is where we came from, our root, and our inspiration.
Coins = Earth = Mercantile
Fenspace Symbol: The Sun. Or possibly The Earth. Source and center of even our economy...
Cups = Water = Spiritualism
Fenspace Symbol: The Milky Way. Our aspiration.
Swords = Wind = Nobility
Fenspace Symbol: Lightsaber, ignited -- A graceful weapon from a more civilized age.
Still working on Swords and Coins, will post more as ideas come to me, suggestions welcome.
ETA: Initial ideas posted for Coins and Swords, but not too happy with them....
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make
anything explode.
I've gone in for a slightly different (maybe a little more reductive?) interpretation...
Wands = Science and Exploration (I *like* the Rockets idea, though. Maybe we should consider renaming some of the Arcana to fit?)
Ace: The USS Phoenix riding a Cherenkov rainbow across a star-filled sky.
Coins = Commerce and Trade (yeah, boring I know. Still a WIP.)
Ace: A top-view silhouette of Stellvia backlit by the Sun.
Cups = Philosophy and Spiritualism
Ace: A crystal chalice filled with handwavium.
Swords = ...still working on it. Probably Defense of some sort.
Ace: Again, still working on it.
Mr. Fnord
interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
It doesn't help that the lightsaber is pretty much the -only- universally-recognized sword symbol among fen...
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make
anything explode.
The Ace of Swords might be a Jedi Knight.
Three might be a wounded SPARTAN with an A24 'Sword' battlerifle and three spent shells on the ground. The Six could be the SS Ciara firing excalibur missiles. Eight: A service number of some sort. The Nine could be the metallic hand off a Boskone Berserker with nine-bladed fingers.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
If we need more characters, then it would be best if the Ravenmoon Minor Arcana were added sometime after 2014.
That said, Mayonaka would make for an excellent swords card, particularly Ace or Queen... She fits the descriptions pretty well, and in Infinities, during a time of upheaval among the Senshi, she goes on to be their Regent for a time and is nicknamed 'The Black Queen'. Be kinda fun to have that as something for people to reflect on.
Also, be surprised if Mel wasn't in there somewhere.
Hmmm. Six of Swords should show a spaceship, either firing six beam weapons or escorted by six fighters, flying into what is clearly massively overwhelming opposition, kind of like nBSG Pegasus' death-ride...
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make
anything explode.
ECSNorway Wrote:Hmmm. Six of Swords should show a spaceship, either firing six beam weapons or escorted by six fighters, flying into what is clearly massively overwhelming opposition, kind of like nBSG Pegasus' death-ride...
One of the events on the SS Ciara's history (And something I planned to eventually write a story for) was the ship getting ambushed by Boskone luring them away from a convoy with a false distress call, then ambushing. The end result being a bunch of ruined boskone ships and the SS Ciara battered with engines disabled and the radio mast shot off. The battle itself wasn't even part of the plot.... just the aftermath.
Both Luna and Artemis were used to go get help, with Raymond Garret navigating Luna to a nearby settlement using nothing more than a PDA with charts on it and a calculator. Artemis was found abandoned and out of fuel a week later.
Meanwhile, Ciara's engineers were able to get some power back at a cost of wading knee-deep in wave-contaminated diesel fuel and engine coolant. Enough power anyway to build a crude spark gap transmitter out of a welding torch and hope *someone* noticed the odd pattern of interference sort of like three short bursts, three long bursts, then three short bursts again.
(And I need to use these folks for more things. As much as they're ordinary fen, they still get mentioned too little)
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
M Fnord Wrote:I've gone in for a slightly different (maybe a little more reductive?) interpretation...
Wands = Science and Exploration (I *like* the Rockets idea, though. Maybe we should consider renaming some of the Arcana to fit?).
I've already renamed "The World" as "The Worlds," but that's rather subtle...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
I actually do read Tarot, and use a variant of the Rider-Waite deck. I think the symbolism here works with the established meanings, both normal and reversed. I'm stuck on who to put as the Page of Wands, though.
Ace of Wands: Dr. Robert Goddard launches his first successful rocket.
Two of Wands: Sputnik 2 and Lakita
Three of Wands: Dr. Wernher von Braun, shaking hands with President Truman, with Eisenhower in the background.
Four of Wands: the Atlas V rocket, launching a commercial satellite, in orbit.
Five of Wands: A Minuteman missle, in mid launch.
Six of Wands: A Space X Falcon rocket.
Seven of Wands: Rollout of the Space Shuttle Enterprise.
Eight of Wands: Challenger on her launch pad, January 28, 1986. Crew picture in the foreground.
Nine of Wands:A NIKE missile emplacement, clearly abandoned, with a group of civilians working on one of the missiles. Some kind of lightning display is going on in the background. (Bonus points to anyone who gets this reference.)
Ten of Wands: A V-2 rocket, mid-launch. The background is indistinct, and it cannot be seen whether this is a wartime launch from Germany, or testing in the American desert.
Page of Wands:
Knight of Wands: John Glenn and the Friendship 7 capsule.
Queen of Wands: Sally Ride. (Wands are typically fair-haired, but lets face it, this is a natural.)
The King of Wands: Neil Armstrong and the Saturn V.
If we're going to make Neil Armstrong the King of Wands, will we need a new Sun?
As for the Page of Wands, might this be a very young launch system, or a very young astronaut? Examples of either aren't coming to mind immediately, alas...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
I think I'd use the Viking lander as The Sun, personally. I thought about Voyager, but it just doesn't fit the symbology now.
For the Page, maybe a non-USA'ian space effort? India and China have both made advances recently that could qualify.
Alternatively, Yuri Gagarin.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make
anything explode.
I think Gagarin might fit the King better than Armstrong. Though both would do well as either sun, or King.
I think Armstrong is best left as the Sun because the moon landing missions really where something attained and something quite special. While Gagarin gets King because.... well, that works.
Yang Liwei as the Page?
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
Dartz Wrote:I think Gagarin might fit the King better than Armstrong. Though both would do well as either sun, or King.
I think Armstrong is best left as the Sun because the moon landing missions really where something attained and something quite special. While Gagarin gets King because.... well, that works.
Yang Liwei as the Page?
That works for me.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make
anything explode.
Duane Peters Wrote:I think I'd use the Viking lander as The Sun, personally. I thought about Voyager, but it just doesn't fit the symbology now.
Hmmmmm... What do people think of Opportunity as The Sun?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
robkelk Wrote:Duane Peters Wrote:I think I'd use the Viking lander as The Sun, personally. I thought about Voyager, but it just doesn't fit the symbology now.
Hmmmmm... What do people think of Opportunity as The Sun?
I dunno. The moon landings were the single big accomplishment of the RL space program. I don't think anything else we've done tops that.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make
anything explode.
ECSNorway Wrote:robkelk Wrote:Duane Peters Wrote:I think I'd use the Viking lander as The Sun, personally. I thought about Voyager, but it just doesn't fit the symbology now.
Hmmmmm... What do people think of Opportunity as The Sun?
I dunno. The moon landings were the single big accomplishment of the RL space program. I don't think anything else we've done tops that.
On the flip side, there wasn't as much "attained knowledge" from the Apollo missions as there has been from the Mars rovers... Which meaning of the card do we want to go with?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Okay, the suit of Rockets is up, with Gagarin as King and Yang Liwei as Page. Armstrong is still The Sun (because, hey - Apollo).
I resisted the urge to replace Sally Ride with Valentina Tereshkova (who was in space long before Ms. Ride)... but if somebody else wants to edit the page, I won't revert it.
Next...?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
ECSNorway Wrote:Coins = Earth = Mercantile
Fenspace Symbol: The Sun. Or possibly The Earth. Source and center of even our economy...
M Fnord Wrote:Coins = Commerce and Trade (yeah, boring I know. Still a WIP.)
Ace: A top-view silhouette of Stellvia backlit by the Sun.
Not just trade - we could add the makers to the sellers, and dedicate this to daily life.
Start with the Vitamin Man as the Ace (in Tarot, aces are low) and work up to Hephaestus as the King, maybe?
ECSNorway Wrote:Cups = Water = Spiritualism
Fenspace Symbol: The Milky Way. Our aspiration.
M Fnord Wrote:Cups = Philosophy and Spiritualism
Ace: A crystal chalice filled with handwavium.
Similarly to the above, make this the suit of the thinkers, the dreamers, the entertainers, and the others whose stock in trade is ideas and memes.
J.Random Filker, The Jason, Leonard da Quirm, the Hacker Underspace as a group... (maybe the folks at Candy Apple Red's, but that might be the wrong sort of entertainment)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
I nominate VF for Eight of Coins, with the artist choosing his Shop Telepresence to refer to him.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''
-- James Nicoll