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now has four more words: "one state under God". Note that this pledge as been part of a morning ritual required for Texas students since 2003.
Further, the individual behind this change, Rep. Debbie Riddle (R-Tomball), made her opinions on public education known back in March, 2003:
"Where did this idea come from that everybody deserves free education, free medical care, free whatever? It comes from Moscow, from Russia. It comes straight out of the pit of hell. And it's cleverly disguised as having a tender heart. It's not a tender heart. It's ripping the heart out of this country."
Comments? Opinions?
--The Twisted One"Welcome to Fanboy Hell. You will be spending eternity here, in a small room with Jar-Jar Binks and Dobby the house-elf."
"If you
wish to converse with me, define your
terms."

--Voltaire

shoot the bitch in the head.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

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shoot the bitch in the head.

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Then deny her medical services.
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Epsilon

It is hardly surprising. Atavistic, fundamentalist, gits have been fucking with the Pledge of Allegiance for ages. It was amended in 1923, with my flag being dropped in favor of the Flag of the United States of America and then later in 1954 when Knights of Columbus gits pushed for the addition of under god presumably their god taking a secular oath and turning it into a public prayer.
Not only does this waste-of-skin need the constant reassurance of the existence of her imaginary friend an act akin to asking the audience to clap in order to keep the fairy Tinkerbell from taking a winged dirt-nap; she also needs the implied authority of her gods evil twin to further blacken things she does not like.
Of course if you go to Mississippi you get more than an arse load of S & P. Their pledge goes on about the guidance of Almighty God. They are still waiting on that one.
Separation of Church and States in the United States of America keeps eroding.
Shayne

Yep, pretty soon, we'll all be forced at gunpoint into that good ol' Fundamentalist Church of Atheism.

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Further, the individual behind this change, Rep. Debbie Riddle (R-Tomball), made her opinions on public education known back in March, 2003:
"Where did this idea come from that everybody deserves free education, free medical care, free whatever? It comes from Moscow, from Russia. It comes straight out of the pit of hell. And it's cleverly disguised as having a tender heart. It's not a tender heart. It's ripping the heart out of this country."

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100% correct. Nothing is "free" in the world - you pay for it every April 15th, every time you buy an item and pay sales tax, and every time you get a paycheck.--
"I give you the beautiful... the talented... the tirelessly atomic-powered...
R!
DOROTHY!
WAYNERIGHT!
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

not 100% correct. Providing 'free' health care & schooling is not a satanic or communist idea, it's a _good_ idea.
I'd go so far as to say 100% incorrect.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

As a fiscal conservative/anti-socialist atheist Republican (yes, I'm weird), I don't care for "free" health care (my dad and uncles lived in B.C. for several years and have many stories about Canadian health care), and think the American public school system needs serious work, but I still think the second quote shows collossal ignorance: Article Seven of the Texas state constitution, ratified in 1876, is devoted to education, and says ". . . it shall be DUTY OF THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE to establish and make suitable provision for the support and maintenance of an efficient system of public free schools"

--The Twisted One"Welcome to Fanboy Hell. You will be spending eternity here, in a small room with Jar-Jar Binks and Dobby the house-elf."
"If you
wish to converse with me, define your
terms."

--Voltaire

sure, and it's good plain sense besides - a free, decent, basic education is the best thing you can apply to a populace.

Also, I think it's a given that we could argue about how the american school system is failing in the 'decent' category until the cows come home, so.. let's not?Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

Well, that's assuming that you want a populace that has a decent general education.
If you want to ensure that only those people with the money can get good general educations (and have conned yourself into thinking that you belong to that group), well then calling the public school system the tool of Satan is perfectly logical.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

shit, did I just let my eternal 'somewhere deep down those fuckheads in charge want to have a good country' belief show?
Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

I think you're working from a very different concept of what a good country is.
As for this latest Texas lunacy, I'm a member of the "we should've let Santa Ana fucking keep it" camp. It's genetic in Coloradans.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

If we're going there, I still think we can get rid of the lot of you.
It's not a genetic condition, but a yen for secessionism seems to be rather infection in the less urban parts of AK.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

The stuff I've heard about the situation in Canada is a big part of what makes me dubious of a fully government-run health system.
That, and I don't feel I should be required to pay for fixing other people's bad choices. And these days it seems like there's a lot of health care money spent on fixing bad choices...
-Morgan, can make her own bad choices. >.>"Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!"
-Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
---(Not really)

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The stuff I've heard about the situation in Canada is a big part of what makes me dubious of a fully government-run health system.

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And the stuff I've heard about the shithole of an American Health System makes me damn fucking certain I would never want to live under a privately run health care system.
Everything bad you've heard about the Canadian system is because there are elements of Canadian politics who hate it with a passion. When these elements get elected they do everything in their power to dismantle our health care system, usually by cutting the funds of it as much as possible. They then use the backups and shortages caused by the massive cuts they themselves have implemented to argue that our system is broken.
Fuck them. Fuck them and let them die.
Healthcare is a basic fucking right of humanity. It is up there with police forces, firefighters and other emergency services.

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That, and I don't feel I should be required to pay for fixing other people's bad choices. And these days it seems like there's a lot of health care money spent on fixing bad choices...

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Yes, of course. How dare these people make the mistake of being born poor and then getting sick or injured. Fuck them for thinking that they deserve health care. If they had deserved health care they would have been born in the suburbs.
My roommate suffers from persistent anemia. She has had to go to the hospital five times in the last two months. If we had been in the American system she would be bankrupt right now. No fucking health insurance company would voluntarily cover her, considering her past history of this condition. Thanks to our free universal health care my roommate is ALIVE at this time. So anybody who thinks that health care should not be available to everyone regardless of income can kindly go fuck themselves to death.
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Epsilon

The probelm with free health care is the ability of the gov.
to fuck it up. Look at the VA and their running of the
hospitals. I think heavy regulation and monitering of private
insurance might be better. put it in the hands of people who are out to make money and not polictal points and you might get a better effect. Just be careful of monopolies like
there are now...

You seem to have a different definition of "choice" than I do.
When I say "choice", I'm talking about things like, say, smoking. Things everyone and their pet duck - including the people selling the product - are telling them is bad for them. When people do that, and end up having health problems because of that, it's a direct result of something *they* decided to do. Thus, it should be *their* problem.
Beyond that, I still wouldn't want to see a universal health care system that was fully government-run, because past experiences don't suggest that they would do it particularly well. The right mix of public and private might produce something better... but other than "not what the US has right now", I don't know what.
-Morgan."Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!"
-Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
---(Not really)

Source = World Health Organization

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1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

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So, even with some elements of our government going out of there way to sabotage our own system we are STILL better than you in terms of Health Care. And guess what 90% of those countries above you in the list have?
Frankly, yes, the government can fuck up Health Care. It's a human insitution and thus subject to flaws. But private enterprise can also fuck up health care and has, pretty massively, in the United States.
The fact is that there are lots of countries which have exceptional health care despite/because they are run by the government. Your argument is inane and, oh yeah:
FUCK YOU. MY ROOMMATE WOULD BE DEAD RIGHT NOW WITHOUT UNIVERSAL HEALTCARE. MY BEST FRIEND WOULD BE CRIPPLED FOR LIFE AND POSSIBLY DEAD. FUCK YOU AND GO TO HELL.
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Epsilon

*applauds*

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"I'm terribly sorry, but I have to kill you quite horribly now."

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When I say "choice", I'm talking about things like, say, smoking.

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In Canada we heavily heavily tax smoking. Like, on the order of a $4 pack of cigarettes having $8 of tax.
This money is spent towards things like Health Care.

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Beyond that, I still wouldn't want to see a universal health care system that was fully government-run, because past experiences don't suggest that they would do it particularly well.

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Aside from the fact that countries like Canada, Great Britain, France, Japan and Denmark having been doing so with great success for decades, you mean.
If you want to see how to do a health care system right look at the list I posted and investigate those health care systems.
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Epsilon

Somehow, I don't believe I ever once said that the system the US had was better than anyone elses. It's quite broken in it's own way.
And just because governments in other countries can run a health care system well doesn't necessarily imply that the US government can. (Sheesh, I don't think I've *ever* gotten this bad a reaction to being cynical about the US government before...)

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In Canada we heavily heavily tax smoking. Like, on the order of a $4 pack of cigarettes having $8 of tax.

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Personaly, I think it'd be more appropriate to not have those high taxes on cigarettes, but to have the government provide no medical assistance for problems they have caused by smoking. Though front-loading the problem like this would have some distinct advantages that might make it better in the long run.
-Morgan.
"Mikuru-chan molested me! I'm... so happy!"
-Haruhi, "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
---(Not really)

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Personaly, I think it'd be more appropriate to not have those high taxes on cigarettes, but to have the government provide no medical assistance for problems they have caused by smoking. Though front-loading the problem like this would have some distinct advantages that might make it better in the long run.

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How do you prove a medical problem was caused by smoking? There are other causes of lung cancer, etc.
Plus, its basic human compassion.
Health Care is a universal right of all human beings, or should be.
Would you deny a person the benefits of police protection because they live in a high crime neighbourhood? They choose to live there, thus they know the risks. Certainly the government can not be expected to expend money on such things.
Do you think the government should provide emergency services to a flooded area, even if that area was flooded because it didn't maintain its dykes well enough? The people chose not to maintain those dykes. They chose to live in an area that was below sea level.
I don't think there is anything inherently inborn to Americans that they would be incapable ofproviding these services. If you want to end curruption and graft, you can do it. Just vote compotent people into office. Or are you claiming that the American people are so innately stupid and childish that they can't be trusted?
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Epsilon

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Personaly, I think it'd be more appropriate to not have those high taxes on cigarettes, but to have the government provide no medical assistance for problems they have caused by smoking.

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And thus reduce the surplus population. Right.
Thank you, Ebeneezer, your opinion has been noted and logged.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"

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How do you prove a medical problem was caused by smoking?

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That's one of the advantages of the system in Canada. I can think of others. But on the other hand, why should someone who smokes all their life and doesn't have medical problems have to pay?
Living in a high-crime area or an area below sea level are not inherently self-destructive acts. Smoking is an inherently self-destructive act. Not maintaining dykes and levies is, while certainly a what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-people issue, not something under the direct control of the people requiring aid. Not rescuing the people who actually made those decisions, while a nice idea from the poetic justice standpoint, likely waste time and resources better used on helping more people.

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I don't think there is anything inherently inborn to Americans that they would be incapable ofproviding these services. If you want to end curruption and graft, you can do it. Just vote compotent people into office. Or are you claiming that the American people are so innately stupid and childish that they can't be trusted?

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I might not be the best person to ask that last question... Nothing gives you a low opinion of your fellow man like working in retail.
But, let's assume I'm not that cynical for a moment. It's still going to take some time due to the length of senate terms, nonelected positions, and the like. And then one has to set up a new system while keeping everything else from falling apart. It'd also be nice if it was set up in such a way that people who hated it wouldn't be able to do major damage in the way you say is happening in Canada.
Well, it'd be nice, but I don't expect it to happen anytime soon.
-Morgan.

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I don't think there is anything inherently inborn to Americans that they would be incapable ofproviding these services. If you want to end curruption and graft, you can do it. Just vote compotent people into office. Or are you claiming that the American people are so innately stupid and childish that they can't be trusted?

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I doubt it, but I try to be generous. ^_^
Acquiring a competent government starting from the current system is, unfortunately, likely to be a significant challenge - logistically if no other way. Principle problems are separating the genuinely honest (or at least effective) candidates from the ones just making the right mouth-noises and, even more, the fact that much or most voting of America are sufficiently ignorant or misguided that no, I wouldn't trust them if I had a choice. I'll hasten to add that I'm also of the opinion that they exist in that state due to the fact that they simply don't have access to - or, often, have been actively conditioned to reject - sufficiently accurate information to make reasonable choices.
And of course, control of most of the potential ways to correct that - of all of the best ones - rests squarely in the hands of individuals with a vested interest in keeping in that way.
Part and parcel of the way the country was originally intended to work, really.
*shrug* It won't last, of course. It can't. But IMHO, that won't happen for another generation or so, when awareness on the internet about these problems and where to go to find out about them expands enough to become a significant presence to kids as they're growing up, before the conditioning can take.
Really, though, about health care? Compared to the productivity of any first-world country, its costs are trivial. Grow the fuck up, people. You're squalling about not getting a sucker while people are dying, letting them drown because it's too much bother to figure out where to find a fucking rope.
Ja, -n

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"I'm terribly sorry, but I have to kill you quite horribly now."

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That's one of the advantages of the system in Canada. I can think of others. But on the other hand, why should someone who smokes all their life and doesn't have medical problems have to pay?

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Let me put it this way:
Smoking is a high risk activity. Doing it results in an above average rate of health problems.
Heavy eating is also a high risk activity. Should we deny medical services to the overweight? They obviously caused their body considerable damage since they are overweight due to overeating. We should obviously not treat them for heart failure, diabetes or any other condition we can link to overeating.
Male-to-male homosexual sex is highly likely to spread AIDS and other STDs, especially compared to hetero-sex. Canadian Blood Services refuses to allow actively gay men from donating blood because of this. So, since this is a high risk behaviour, we should obviously withold treatment from anyone we suspect has acquired an STDS from the nasty, nasty homo-sex.
Where do you draw this line, Morganni? Who are the people that deserve health care and who are the people that deserve to die. We need a list here. Somethign nice and formal.
Or you could develop some compassion and say that all human beings have an innate right to life and that it is not our job to say who should and should not be treated.
I mean, lung cancer is pretty harsh already. Do we really need to punish smokers more by inflicting crippling poverty on them as well?
As for why people should pay for health care, even if they don't use it?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
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Epsilon