Hello, been a while since I was here.
School work piled on, then a complete burn out.
Anyway, before I get into the whole finding a job thing, I thought I'd pop in and say a few cranky, no-fun words.
Basically, these are a few points, perhaps even criticisms about this whole endeavor.
I hope that it will inspire healthy debate about the teleology of Fenspace.
Firstly: Why the Boskone War should have been total genocide for the entire human race.
Not knowing how or why the whole Boskone thing started, nor how it ended, it's a bit difficult to attribute motives and what-not to the sides. At any rate, ever since Napoleon or thereabouts, Total War has been the name of the game. Granted, we haven't had a full-scale nuclear exchange on Earth yet, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't happen.
Given this trend in human history, with no real sign of abatement, the Boskone War should have meant extinction for the whole human race. Here's why: weapons proliferation. Even with the censor that handwavium imposes, the most effecient and cheaply made weapon available to the combatants are their own ships. With enough firepower in just one orbital shuttle to take out a city (at least), and with the massive proliferation of ships/weapons, there should have been mass al-qaedaing of damn near every habitat, space station, asteroid, colony, city and biosphere.
The only reason why this hasn't happend is editorial fiat. Which really isn't that good of a reason.
Think about it. If we can start a venomous flame war about, I dunno, which battlestar galactica was better, then how would fans (or fens . . . which works as well as any other name, i suppose) react to each other when they have thermonuclear capabilities and a frightening lack of restraint?
Secondly: Suzumiya Haruhi is dumb, dumb, dumb.
Well, no, not really. It's a great anime/light novel series. She's a great character. However, what really takes you out of this shared universe thing is the idea of a single god-like character out there laughing it up while handing out handwavium goodies.
(not to get into the fact that the whole premise of the series was that she didn't know about her powers being the point).
It further takes away any real mystique that the handwavium could accrue if their origins were mysterious. Where did it come from? How does it work? Who else is out there in the universe? Etc. etc. If the answer to all this is: it's a god-like japanese school girl what did it, then, well, heck. There's not much more to say about the subject, is there.
It also goes against the, for lack of a better term, feel of the shared universe. What is the point of being semi-hard science fiction if it's the product of a god-like being? Doesn't that undermine everything?
Thirdly: Nostalgia.
I read an article (can't find it now, darn it), really an interview with charles stross and cory doctorow, in which it talks about how science fiction has grown afraid of the future. How it's either all elves and unicorns or space opera galactic empires in the year five billion. No near-term future think. A discussion of the singularity was also there, but the point stands that there is a genuine lack of novelty in science fiction.
A lot of it has to do with nostalgia; dangerous, corrosive nostalgia.
Look at how this world was set up, regurgitating the ideas and dreams of dead men like ideological necrophiliac cannibals. Where's the new, the outbreaks of future, in having your fictional avatar live in a world that people born in the ass-end of the last century would have found comfortable and explicable?
Anyway.
Ignore or respond or what have you.
-murmur
Hmm, that necrophiliac cannibal line was a bit harsh.
Also, clunky.
-murmur
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Even with the censor that handwavium imposes, the most effecient and cheaply made weapon available to the combatants are their own ships. With enough firepower in just one orbital shuttle to take out a city (at least), and with the massive proliferation of ships/weapons, there should have been mass al-qaedaing of damn near every habitat, space station, asteroid, colony, city and biosphere.
Most orbital shuttles are 'waved automobiles or small ships. This not being
Car Wars, cars and yachts tend to be unarmed.
The only flying Space Shuttle in Fenspace is unarmed.
The only flying locomotive in Fenspace is unarmed.
The largest ship in Fenspace,
Grover's Corners, appears to be unarmed.
And for the longest time, there was a cultural bias against arming Fenships. This was because nobody wanted to be like "that idiot in that L5 space station"...
Before you point out that the ships themselves are weapons: There are any number of ways to disable a ship under power if it becomes necessary - they aren't going to be used as kinetic-kill weapons if there's another Fenship in the area. And with the Warsies almost always out "on maneuvers", there's almost always another Fenship in the area.
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Think about it. If we can start a venomous flame war about, I dunno, which battlestar galactica was better, then how would fans (or fens . . . which works as well as any other name, i suppose) react to each other when they have thermonuclear capabilities and a frightening lack of restraint?
Fen do
not have thermonuclear capabilities.
Noah's not stupid - he had the means, motive, and opportunity to gather up all of the available fissionables in Fenspace before anyone else imagined doing so - heck, before most other Fen were even in space - and had them safely under lock-and-key before The Island lifted. Thus, he's the only Fan with access to "kaboomite", and nobody else knows that kaboomite is code for "baby nukes" except for Comrade Fnord (who helped with the cleanup operation). And nobody's talking - this is one of the best-kept secrets in Fenspace.
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(Haruhi)'s a great character. However, what really takes you out of this shared universe thing is the idea of a single god-like character out there laughing it up while handing out handwavium goodies.
Good thing she's just a fan who biomodded herself (or possibly himself) into the appearance of her favourite anime character, then - she can't do anything of the sort.
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Look at how this world was set up, regurgitating the ideas and dreams of dead men like ideological necrophiliac cannibals.
Er... no. There's absolutely nothing stopping anyone from exploring something new.
I'm doing so myself as an ongoing B-plot touched upon in almost all of my stories to date: How would self-aware AIs interact with the world when most but not all people don't know they're AIs? As far as I know, this idea is original to me... or as original as any "I've got a secret" idea can be.
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Where's the new, the outbreaks of future, ...
AIs.
Biomods.
Colonies on Mars and at Alpha Centuari.
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... in having your fictional avatar live in a world that people born in the ass-end of the last century would have found comfortable and explicable?
Which was done on purpose, I'm sure - it gives the story a familiar setting. We can make references to Starbucks and al-Qaeda without horrid circumlocutions, which we wouldn't be able to do in a story set a century in the future.
-Rob Kelk
"
Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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Anyway, before I get into the whole finding a job thing, I thought I'd pop in and say a few cranky, no-fun words.
Well, I'll grant you that you've accomplished that much.
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Not knowing how or why the whole Boskone thing started, nor how it ended, it's a bit difficult to attribute motives and what-not to the sides. At any rate, ever since Napoleon or thereabouts, Total War has been the name of the game. Granted, we haven't had a full-scale nuclear exchange on Earth yet, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't happen.
"Total war" as a concept postdates Napoleon by almost 75 years. The first serious example of what we'd call total warfare was the American Civil War, and even then the concept didn't catch on for another fifty years until the meat grinder we call the First World War. Also, the
last instance of total war - serious, actual everything-goes-to-the-war-effort total war - was the Second World War. There've been some interesting situations since then, but nothing that could be rightly called total war.
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The only reason why this hasn't happend is editorial fiat. Which really isn't that good of a reason.
Because as we all know, human beings are scum.
That
is the thesis, right? That we're basically awful to everything and thus can't have nice things without destroying the world. It certainly seems to be the point you're driving at here.
Yes, it's editorial fiat. No, I'm not going to change it without a serious, honest to god majority of the writers wanting a change.
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Well, no, not really. It's a great anime/light novel series. She's a great character. However, what really takes you out of this shared universe thing is the idea of a single god-like character out there laughing it up while handing out handwavium goodies.
*sigh*
For the record, I'm really sorry that I ever
thought of bringing Haruhi Suzumiya into Fenspace. It was a spur of the moment thought back in the original plotbunny thread, I thought it was cute and decided to roll with it... and now it's become this huge monster that's devouring everything in its path.
Ah well, we're stuck with it for the moment. Moving on.
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It also goes against the, for lack of a better term, feel of the shared universe. What is the point of being semi-hard science fiction if it's the product of a god-like being? Doesn't that undermine everything?
I don't know. Tell me the truth; do you feel like
Singularity Sky and
Iron Sunrise, or
Accelerando and
Glasshouse are undermined because godlike beings are the root causes of those stories? If not, why not?
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Look at how this world was set up, regurgitating the ideas and dreams of dead men like ideological necrophiliac cannibals.
Don't hold back, mate. Tell us how you
really feel.
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Where's the new, the outbreaks of future, in having your fictional avatar live in a world that people born in the ass-end of the last century would have found comfortable and explicable?
I would think creating a functional society on a shifting foundation of pop culture would make for some entertaining new, even if it's low-gadgetry. But that's just me.
Okay, here's my end point. If you want hardcore, well-designed near term hard or semihard science fiction, go read Stross, or Doctrow, or MacLeod or Banks or Brin or Bear or Benford or Robert Charles Wilson or Warren Ellis. All those people are paid to write science fiction, and they do it very well. We - and by "we" I mean the Fenspace writers - are here to have a little fun in the sandbox, kick around some ideas and hopefully get a couple of good stories out of our efforts. We are not here to pretend to be revolutionary, we're taking an idea ("If the only people who want to colonize space are science fiction fans, what happens when they go and do it?") and running with it until we trip, fall & stab ourselves.
If that doesn't appeal, then you ought to stop reading Fenspace, because you're not going to enjoy our output.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord
interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
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Firstly: Why the Boskone War should have been total genocide for the entire human race.
BZZZZT!
wrong answer. If you want to talk 'Total War', we, as a species, haven't had any since 16 July 1945. I can't comment on anything before that with certainty, but I can assure you that it hasn't happened afterwards..
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Yes, it's editorial fiat. No, I'm not going to change it without a serious, honest to god majority of the writers wanting a change.
Where's the drugs, prostitution, slavery, sex crimes, rape, murder, fat bastards, and ugly people in the Star Trek universe?
Same thing here. Also,
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Which really isn't that good of a reason.
Horseshit. It's a perfectly valid reason. "Hey, what if X, Y, Z" kinda depends on X, Y, and Z.
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Secondly: Suzumiya Haruhi is dumb, dumb, dumb.
I dunno about this. Understood, of course, that this is in the context of the Fenspace universe.
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A lot of it has to do with nostalgia; dangerous, corrosive nostalgia.
I categorically refuse to dispose of one of the driving forces of my existence. I categorically _state_ that it is possible to stand in the past and look towards the future.
I am offended.
Also, it's just a show, you really should just relax.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
Re: Coming on cranky
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Anyway, before I get into the whole finding a job thing, I thought I'd pop in and say a few cranky, no-fun words.
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Well, I'll grant you that you've accomplished that much.
[Urm, thanks, I guess. (getting a bit chilly in here . . .)]
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Not knowing how or why the whole Boskone thing started, nor how it ended, it's a bit difficult to attribute motives and what-not to the sides. At any rate, ever since Napoleon or thereabouts, Total War has been the name of the game. Granted, we haven't had a full-scale nuclear exchange on Earth yet, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't happen.
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"Total war" as a concept postdates Napoleon by almost 75 years. The first serious example of what we'd call total warfare was the American Civil War, and even then the concept didn't catch on for another fifty years until the meat grinder we call the First World War. Also, the last instance of total war - serious, actual everything-goes-to-the-war-effort total war - was the Second World War. There've been some interesting situations since then, but nothing that could be rightly called total war.
[Total War as turning all state output to war production, which was done in Napoleonic France (well, in theory and rhetoric, anyway) to destroy the enemy's ability to make war. (Also, interesting idea, if Palestine were considered a state, could it be said that its entire material output goes into total war? bit off topic). Now, as to completely destroying your enemy, this has been done . . . since forever, I guess. Earliest example I can think of is a reference from, of all places, the Cartoon History of the Universe Part II where it describes the first . . . Han Emperor killing/deporting the entire population of a rebellious province and then sowing the earth with salt to make sure it couldn't grow anything. Which is something.]
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The only reason why this hasn't happend is editorial fiat. Which really isn't that good of a reason.
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Because as we all know, human beings are scum.
[Um, yes?]
That is the thesis, right? That we're basically awful to everything and thus can't have nice things without destroying the world. It certainly seems to be the point you're driving at here.
[Pretty much.]
Yes, it's editorial fiat. No, I'm not going to change it without a serious, honest to god majority of the writers wanting a change.
[You don't really have to change it. Just give both Boskonians and their adversaries very good reasons WHY they didn't just go "You know, we're not winning this war fast enough. Handwavium just isn't letting us make cool weapons. I think that I'll just remote control pilot a few ships with fusion reactors going at really damn high speeds and ram them into cities, worlds and what-not. Blow em up real good. It wouldn't take all that many to render the entire solar system uninhabitable." I mean, there must be a reason. Say somebody early in the war dropped a colony on australia on something and that made them make a treaty in antarctica or something and agreed to not do that. Or something. I dunno.]
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Well, no, not really. It's a great anime/light novel series. She's a great character. However, what really takes you out of this shared universe thing is the idea of a single god-like character out there laughing it up while handing out handwavium goodies.
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*sigh*
For the record, I'm really sorry that I ever thought of bringing Haruhi Suzumiya into Fenspace. It was a spur of the moment thought back in the original plotbunny thread, I thought it was cute and decided to roll with it... and now it's become this huge monster that's devouring everything in its path.
Ah well, we're stuck with it for the moment. Moving on.
[This is where the power of editorial fiat comes in handy. Just issue an ex cathedra ruling that the haruhi here is not the actual character or something. Or just render all mentions of her non-canon. Have a reboot, a re-imagining, a crisis or what have you. Fnordican II, to continue the papal metaphor.]
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It also goes against the, for lack of a better term, feel of the shared universe. What is the point of being semi-hard science fiction if it's the product of a god-like being? Doesn't that undermine everything?
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I don't know. Tell me the truth; do you feel like Singularity Sky and Iron Sunrise, or Accelerando and Glasshouse are undermined because godlike beings are the root causes of those stories? If not, why not?
[You know, I think accelerando kind of was undermined by the matrioska brains. I mean, I can kind of understand where he was going with it, kind of . . .
Singularity Sky and Iron Sunrise worked worked with the idea of a god-like being who only interfered via covert agents. It was an FTL-lampshade hanging that generated a great plot. Consider the Fall Revolution series by Macleod. the middle two books work in the shadow of the singularity.
Anyway, to be even more geeky about it, it's like how most Q episodes from TNG just don't work. He can do EVERYTHING so why does he never win? (and i know that i'm going to get arguments about this. but think about it: he never does convince picard et al. that they're loser scum does he?)]
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Look at how this world was set up, regurgitating the ideas and dreams of dead men like ideological necrophiliac cannibals.
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Don't hold back, mate. Tell us how you really feel.
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Where's the new, the outbreaks of future, in having your fictional avatar live in a world that people born in the ass-end of the last century would have found comfortable and explicable?
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I would think creating a functional society on a shifting foundation of pop culture would make for some entertaining new, even if it's low-gadgetry. But that's just me.
Okay, here's my end point. If you want hardcore, well-designed near term hard or semihard science fiction, go read Stross, or Doctrow, or MacLeod or Banks or Brin or Bear or Benford or Robert Charles Wilson or Warren Ellis. All those people are paid to write science fiction, and they do it very well. We - and by "we" I mean the Fenspace writers - are here to have a little fun in the sandbox, kick around some ideas and hopefully get a couple of good stories out of our efforts. We are not here to pretend to be revolutionary, we're taking an idea ("If the only people who want to colonize space are science fiction fans, what happens when they go and do it?") and running with it until we trip, fall & stab ourselves.
If that doesn't appeal, then you ought to stop reading Fenspace, because you're not going to enjoy our output.
[It's not that I don't enjoy the stories, I do. (and thanks for the book recommendations. I've read all but Benford and Wilson. I read Mars and about half of its sequel, but man was his protagonist whiny. Any books in particular by Benford?)
I think my biggest problem with this is that there is a feeling of malaise for and in science fiction fandom, of which this project is a direct reflection of. This is supposed to be about our dreams as fans and so far it's been the same dream over and over again. We should expect more from the field. If we do expect more, then we get more. If our perspective is just the same as it was for the last half decade, then science fiction is not longer about future. It's actually genuinely frightening when smart people, really smart people of whom everyone in this message board is, seem so afraid of the future. The sense of wonder seems gone from a lot of science fiction, replaced by an urge to dress up like space marines and shoot some alien terrorist commies.
If this is supposed to be about escape, what does what we escape to say about us? Shouldn't we be revolutionary in our dreams and fantasies? It's not about not having fun but shouldn't we also be asking ourselves why this is fun for us? Just once? Deconstruct the motifs we're playing with?
Maybe this is taking all of this too seriously. No, probably. But creative output is telling and we should listen to what it tells us. For. . . for . . . uh, various reasons which we are all cognizant of . . . and, um which don't need explicating at this moment. Yeah.]
-murmur
I actually have a post wherein I heap praise upon praise for fenspace, but that's for later.
Okay, there's three major points here as I see it; the war, Haruhi, and what it says about all of us that we're writing it like this.
There's a very good reason why the Boskonians aren't just ramming ships into things. First off, ramming ships into Earth would be counterproductive; the boskos represent, more or less, an extension of ground-bound criminal enterprises that do business with Earth. Total war, ramming crap into your potential customers... is bad. Second, wholesale ramming into fen outposts would be somewhat counterproductive as well; looking at the "slavery" portion of the gig, it's only really easily praciticable in the relatively lawless areas where we're operating. Kill off enough that noone comes out into the black and, well, golden egg and all that jazz. Besides, by the beginning point, we're not really posing a sufficient threat.
By the end things may change such that they try, but also during the course of this war sufficient advancements have come that we're able to intercept stuff.
Now, Haruhi. Yeah, you're right, having her as the source of all this, as the single-provably-godlike entity is dumb. We had a whole big thread on that when we decided that same fact, and decided that it wasn't "a god-like japanese school girl what did it" because it screws up the setting something fierce.
Finally... *shrug* Fine, I'm a bitter, cynical, joyless husk of a man who fears and distrusts the future and had all dreams burnt out of him.
... well, how much of that's true is up for debate, but I *think* I'm joking.
![[Image: wink.gif]](http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/wink.gif)
In truth, I have fun writing bad military sci-fi so, partially in order to figure out a solution to the war thing so people can think about what comes next, I *have* been. Yeah, that's it.
Deconstruct motifs? I'm an engineer (with occasional delusions of being a not-especially-talented writer); you're going to have to slow down and use big words when talking about stuff like that because... uh, what does that even mean?
Y'know... I wasn't going to chime in on this board again until I actually had my story done, but this....
(Looking back over what I have written, what you are about to read? I am being less than kind in some places. However, I cannot point to anything that I have written that is incorrect, and thus do not feel motivated to change any of it. I simply hope that you are not too thin-skinned. Recognize that I intend this as a clue-hammer. It is clear that you are lacking vital bits of Clue, and I am attempting to apply them to you.)
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Because as we all know, human beings are scum.
[Um, yes?]
{No. Morality is a psuedo-evolutionary advantage. Most of the people you meet in this life will have a deep-core drive to Be Good People, or at least be able to justify to themselves that they are. This is true. Deal with it and move on. If you somehow manage to *integrate* it and react accordingly, your life will even improve.}
That is the thesis, right? That we're basically awful to everything and thus can't have nice things without destroying the world. It certainly seems to be the point you're driving at here.
[Pretty much.]
{Apparently, your base assumptions are incorrect. This, then, explans the flaws in your logic. As further disproof, notice that the world, on the whole - and particularly the bits that you almost certainly live in - just doesn't suck that badly. Notice that we as a species have had the power to wipe ourselves out of existence for decades, and somehow haven't gotten around to it yet. Proofs by existance is strong. If you have disproof, i would like to hear it.}
[You don't really have to change it. Just give both Boskonians and their adversaries very good reasons WHY they didn't just go "You know, we're not winning this war fast enough. Handwavium just isn't letting us make cool weapons. I think that I'll just remote control pilot a few ships with fusion reactors going at really damn high speeds and ram them into cities, worlds and what-not. Blow em up real good. It wouldn't take all that many to render the entire solar system uninhabitable." I mean, there must be a reason. Say somebody early in the war dropped a colony on australia on something and that made them make a treaty in antarctica or something and agreed to not do that. Or something. I dunno.]
{Because they're not genocidal psychopaths. What they are is power-hungry, greedy, and utterly immoral. Rendering noticeable chunks of the solar system uninhabitable (even if they were successful) it just doesn't do them any good. They want money, and nice places to stay, and power, and people to own and abuse, and peole to be afraid of them in large numbers and respect them for the crushing power they bring to bear. Ultimate end-goal is utter dominance over the solar system - and every bit they destroy now is one more bit that they can't dominate later. I'd trust "barely enlightened self-interest" out of these guys *long* before I'd trust any sort of treaty. Why would they care what treaty's they've signed? Oh, sure, there'll be a point int he process, once they have essentially complete dominance over fenspace, when they might start demanding concessions from the Eath in exchange for not blowing away civilian soft targets, but that's not the sort of trick you pull until *after* you know that you've got enough power to make sure that you can folow through, regardless of what they do.}
{To look at things another way, let's consider what happens if the Boskonians make a serious attempt to destroy, let's say... New York City. Just for the symbolism, they bring down the Significant Accellerated Mass on the remnants of the World Trade Center. Assume they actually *succeed*. Not that they would, but assume they do....}
{*Please* tell me that you've got enough grasp of Ominous Foreshadowing to know what happens next. *Please*.}
{...and now remember that the Boskonians don't *have* a population of Potentially Sympathetic Civilians to melt back in to. I *guarantee* that a mix of small numbers od dishonorably discharged SF and large numbers of random thug trash running wavetech off of "crush kill loot rape murder destroy" won't be able to stand up to multiple brigade-strength units of Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines who run their wavetech off of "Visit bloody Justice on the evildoers and protect everything that we hold dear." I *guarantee* it.}
{...and for something like this? As far as the Armed Services are concerned, Brigades would be chump change.}
{EDIT: and, having read the bottom of your post "...and why don't we spread wings and really fly anymore?" - well, I honestly think that part of it is that the present has accelerated. We don't need to look far ahead to find the New Worldshaping Thing - we just have to wait a few years. Fenspace stories are more often about People than Stuff. The People are doing and using Stuff, but it's the People that are the important part. It seems a lot of sci-fi is like that these days - start with a few "push the envelope" bits, and see how people will react. That having been said... well, if it bothers you, why not try to fix that in your own small way? Come up with a few ideas/outlines of the sort of stories you'd like to see written. Throw them together in a thread on our "Other People's Fanfiction" board. It'll be a little off-topic, but I really don't think anyone will mind. You're sure to get some useful feedback. Maybe someone will decide to write one of them. Maybe that someone will be you.}
Yeesh, ok first could you format your replies in a manner that is less jumbled? It's very difficult to parse where you're done quoting and started replying. The board has a quote function for a reason.
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[Urm, thanks, I guess. (getting a bit chilly in here . . .)]
Um, seriously, what did you expect to happen. You basically call the whole endeavor a tired affair with no originality in a fairly combative manner. Are you honestly surprised when you get a less then friendly response?
But you wanted a debate so ok. I'll try my best to tackle the three points you seem to bring up without repeating what others have said.
First, you have a somewhat skewed view on human trends. Yes, the last century has been more bloody in terms of its wars. But there hasn't been a large, protracted war on the scale of the world wars since them. So it's a leap to say there's no sign of abatement. An even large jump is the Space Mob fighting a turf war with the Fen suddenly deciding to wipe out life on the scale you're talking about. Are you really saying that an internet flame war could turn into genocide? That notion is moronic. If it were so, there would be killing sprees daily as boardies hunt each other down. Please turn down the hyperbole if you would.
Second: Haruhi. It's been covered. There seems to be an agreement that having her be the manga/anime character was maybe not the best idea, and we're more or less retconning it. So this whole issue dissapears.
Third, the nostalgia/setting issue.
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If this is supposed to be about escape, what does what we escape to say about us? Shouldn't we be revolutionary in our dreams and fantasies? It's not about not having fun but shouldn't we also be asking ourselves why this is fun for us? Just once? Deconstruct the motifs we're playing with?
Let me ask you this; where does this moral imperative to revolutionize the world come from? You say we should be revolutionary in our fantasies? Why? Is it bad that we want to play around with our toys in a conventional manner? You make it seem like it's some sort of moral failing on our part that we didn't make this completely esotaric. That our fun little side project doesn't meet your criteria of what the art of science fiction should be. It's more than a little insulting. And then there's the somewhat silly notion that writing
has to be revolutionary. In writing, when you
have to do something, it fails to become original and simply another ruleset. Plus, since when is dystopian, genocidal space gloom original? Warhammer 40K and it's inspirations anybody?
And lastly:
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Because as we all know, human beings are scum. [Um, yes?]
Honestly, why are you reading Fenspace at all then, or even DW and OMB? These settings clearly don't take some Hobbesian view of mankind (evil and brutish) as a whole, that despite us being pretty nasty sometimes we are or will be pretty decent. Most of the Fenspace writers clearly agree with this basic premise when it applies to Fenspace (our dip into Grim!Fenspace during Operation Great Justice not withstanding), and write our avatars and characters to match. Even the ones who dip into the dark end of the pool do so while working within the frames of the universe, and know that their stories are the outlyers, not what is typical. To be blunt, if you don't like it, feel free to not read. It's the Internet, something different is a page click away.
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-Jon
Leo (July 23-Aug. 22)
The population density of Wyoming is very low, but that doesn't mean the people there aren't also out to kill you.
---
Jon
"And that must have caused my dad's brain to break in half, replaced by a purely mechanical engine of revenge!"
And Sirroco beats me to the punch. S'what I get for listening to the Mariners game while typing.---------------
-Jon
Leo (July 23-Aug. 22)
The population density of Wyoming is very low, but that doesn't mean the people there aren't also out to kill you.
---
Jon
"And that must have caused my dad's brain to break in half, replaced by a purely mechanical engine of revenge!"
request this thread be moved to politics, it's poisoning my Fenspace. Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
*thinks*
Seconded - and my part of the blame for it accepted.
Perhaps a minor tweak in the Rules to suggest that any similar threads that start up in the future start there?
Thirded.
And to make a plot point: Handwavium by its nature rejects the laws of reality in favor of the laws of drama. This applies as much to human psychology and brain chemistry as it does to Newton's Law.--
"I give you the beautiful... the talented... the tirelessly atomic-powered...
R!
DOROTHY!
WAYNERIGHT!
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make
anything explode.
Sorry, is there a politics thread?
Sorry, I see it now.
-murmur
Three requests are enough for me. I'm moving the thread to the Politics section.
-- Bob
---------
The Internet Is For Norns.
And now that it's in Politics...
ECS: this may well be the case - but one of the rules of drama is that drama works better when it's plausible. The less we have to suspend disbelief, the more gripping the story - and suspending disbelief on subtle, worldspanning things (like human nature) is more costly than suspending it on blatant, easily definable things (handwavium exists and these are its properties). It is thus in our best interests dramatically to come up with practical, by-the-rules-of-reality reasons why it works under its own power.
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For the record, I'm really sorry that I ever thought of bringing Haruhi Suzumiya into Fenspace. It was a spur of the moment thought back in the original plotbunny thread, I thought it was cute and decided to roll with it... and now it's become this huge monster that's devouring everything in its path.
(It's broken-record time... )
The easiest retcon I see for this is the one I've been proposing all along. To expand on that position:
Somebody - Hanako Sonoda, Harriet Summers, maybe Howard Smith; it doesn't matter anymore what the person's name was - really,
really liked Haruhi Suzumiya. This isn't unusual for Fenspace - look at A.C. (who looks just like Attim M-Zak from
Seraphic Feather), the Jason (who's turned himself into a
Dragon Ball saiyan), the Warsies' General Solo, the Trekkies' Harcort Mudd... even Noah Scott (with his
Stellvia fixation) fits into this group. However, this particular fan's "love" for Haruhi was a bit stronger than anyone else's obsession.
Whoever this fan was, she got her hands on some handwavium and used it on herself and four of her friends during an all-night
Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu marathon at the local anime club. (Never eat the guacamole-green Pocky sticks, folks - especially if the packages are already unwrapped. ) When they regained consciousness, they decided to forgive her for turning them into the SOS-dan. Not that she knows she did so, anymore - something happened during the biomod and Hanako/Harriet/Harold/whoever now really believes she's Haruhi, and has incorporated the story's background into her delusionary memories. She also got her template's persuasiveness, but that's all she got in the way of "superpowers".
The other SOS-dan may or may not still have their original memories, but the ones who do are very careful to stay in character when they're around Haruhi and the ones who don't. (The other two girls probably would have their old memories. Believing otherwise would slowly drive them mad as they repeatedly couldn't do what they'd
know they should be able to do as an alien and a time-traveller.)
I like this; it's simple, it's elegant, and it doesn't contradict anything that's already been posted. But I'm only one writer. What do other folks think of this?
(And if it's accepted, does anybody want to write Haruhi's origin story based on it? I'd do it, but I've got too many stories on the go as it is.)
-Rob Kelk
"
Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life." - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
would require answering the Haruhi Origin question, and I think it's time.
I like this, it's elegant, and it proves that all you need to succeed in Fenspace is insanity and confidence. Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
It seems like a healthy answer - and that's a valuable thing at this point.
Mild alter suggestion: We have had her coming up with accurate intuitive leaps. The 'wave in her brain might also make her a little more in-tune with the subtle influences of the 'wave in terms of the "becoming a four-color world" effect (if that's anything more than AAA spouting nonsense) - in much the same way that the Prof's brainwave makes him more in tune with practical (and impractical) direct applications of handwavium. And look! Both of them are crazy! It all makes sense. Somewhere hiden in there, there's even a nice little twisty explanation for why the Prof was so willing to sign up under her banner.
I would say we'd still have to come up with why her crew would first forgive her for the pocky and then rally 'round her so loyally (to the point of actively working to reshape the world to fit her whims). On the other hand, minor tweaks in their own biomods that make them especially susceptible to her particular brand of charisma would be ridiculously easy to justify, so I guess no real problem there either.
It also takes some of the weight off of the folks who have to write her.
On the other hand, I was against the "Haruhi as god" plan from the beginning - and I don't really exist quite yet. Is there anyone who'd have a real *problem* with this one?
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why her crew would first forgive her for the pocky and then rally 'round her so loyally
Love.
it doesn't just ruin my freaking life and make the world go 'round, you know.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
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Somebody - Hanako Sonoda, Harriet Summers, maybe Howard Smith; it doesn't matter anymore what the person's name was - really, really liked Haruhi Suzumiya. This isn't unusual for Fenspace - look at A.C. (who looks just like Attim M-Zak from Seraphic Feather)...
I'd like to point out A.C.'s mod was totally uncontrolled (could have easily been any number of forms), but yeah.
It's been shown that with enough focus, biomods can be directed to come out almost exactly, within Handwavium's limits, like the person doing the directing (and possibly with the mental assistance of the mod-ee) wants. Give or take a few Quirks.
In this case, it implys that the fen who became Haruni was insanely obsessive on the series. This cound be another reason why they rallied round her after this (fear of how they'd react to being thwarted almost instantly), but I prefer Sirrocco's idea.
Also, we'd have to decide what Quirks to give her (if any are to be shown).
Personally, I tend to think that "rewrite entire personality and accessible memory-space and also you're at least a little crazy/believe your own hype" counts as a fairly significant quirk. Possibly include a bit of "reacts Really Quite Badly Indeed when base assumptions are challenged."
I don't really think we need any quirks beyond what we've already seen on-screen (and honestly, would we really want the "break the Haruhi with Truth" storyline that the more blatant quirks would be required for?)
I'd like to posit that it was "Kyon" that made the Guacamole Pocky, and that he is still, as of this point in time, unmodded.
It's also possible that he (or whoever did it) deliberately did a "Russian Roulette" game with the Guacamole, that is, the circle of friends had no idea WHICH transformation was willed to which "pocky."
... and that puts me in mind of a college frat doing something similar post-ban... Oh, the horror of 'wavium under the thrall of an LSD trip....
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''
-- James Nicoll
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Oh, the horror of 'wavium under the thrall of an LSD trip....
And there we have the origin of some suspiciously Lovecraftian beings, I suspect...
-- Bob
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The Internet Is For Norns.
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And there we have the origin of some suspiciously Lovecraftian beings, I suspect...
I think that would depend on the person, the amount of LSD, and the sensory stimuli received during the trip. LSD is funny stuff (not unlike 'wavium). I know guys who have to do two hits before they even notice anything.
Regarding Haruhi, I like the idea of the delusional fan. However, maybe we could add a 'wavium-enhanced sense of luck to the batch. Highly persuasive people become less persuasive if they fall on their faces in public. If Haruhi's whackjob plans actually happen to
work more often than not, people would be more willing to follow her.Ebony the Black Dragon
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
http://www.lrgames.com
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com
"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."