Drunkard's Walk Forums

Well. Maybe you may have heard of the shenanigans over in Champions Online. Maybe you haven't.
In a nutshell - they released the game in what most people consider to have been a "non-complete" status, to use the polite term. And have essentially done squat with it except do half-assed bug fixes since then. People (including me) have been holding out hope that there would be more actual content released. And hoping that the game (which, at it's core, is a good system) would be supported at least as well as Cryptic did with City of Heroes.
Well it hasn't worked out like that.
The "big announcement" that Cryptic PR people made was the announcement of a few features like "flashback" systems (hmmm... that sounds familiar), a difficulty slider (even more familiar) some new costume pieces, and "Vibora Bay" a new city zone (on the coast of Florida) that would cover content from level 37-40.
But it's paid content.
That's it.
That's all there is.
No raise of the level cap to 50. No "full zones" for free.
For perspective, in the same time-frame of City of Heroes opening to 5-6 months in, there were 3 free updates that added 10 new zones, capes, multiple costume slots, costume tailoring, 4-5 new enemy groups. graphics upgrades, renovation and addition of new maps for missions, and oodles of new costume pieces. All for free.
My god, how the mighty have fallen.
Overall opinion, despite Cryptic's claims to the contrary, is that CO has been left fallow and most of the development team was reassigned to Star Trek Online. Leaving CO as the "red-headed step child".
Here are some primers. Amazingly enough, there's been little actual "Flaming" going on at the forums. Most people are posting well thought out responses. Even the "see you later, I'm out of here" posts are polite. But the exodus is relentless.
http://forums.champions-online.com/show ... hp?t=99469
The first post in the above thread is probably the quickest overall look at what has happened, but the following threads show other perspectives and opinions as well.
http://forums.champions-online.com/show ... hp?t=98554
http://forums.champions-online.com/show ... hp?t=98958
http://forums.champions-online.com/show ... hp?t=99007

I THANK GOD I didn't buy a lifetime subscription. And those of you who might be thinking of buying one for Star Trek Online, you'd better look DAMN LONG AND HARD at what Cryptic did here before even CONSIDERING giving them ONE RED CENT.
When you have hardcore Cryptic Defenders like this leaving the game -
http://forums.champions-online.com/show ... hp?t=99636
When the company rep (Daeke) who made the announcement of Vibora Bay being paid content is canned (apparently) for mentioning the part about Vibora being paid content early (and thank GOD he did) -
http://forums.champions-online.com/show ... hp?t=99488
http://forums.champions-online.com/show ... hp?t=99523
When even the people who organized the Wiki are asking "what's the point of logging on anymore?"
http://forums.champions-online.com/show ... hp?t=99525
When lifetime subscribers are saying they feel like they got FUCKED without even being taken out for dinner.
http://forums.champions-online.com/show ... hp?t=99687
I'd say it's time to start the betting pool for when the servers will be shut down.
I've already canceled my subscription. I may check back in another 6 months and see what there is to see.
This is not in any way a shadenfraude moment. I'm genuinely sorry to see this happen. I liked lots of things about CO. I think the game itself would have loads of potential even now in the hands of a developer that gave a shit about it.
I've been a Champions fanboy since being introduced to the 4th edition version of the Pen and Paper game in
1992. I have close to 97% of all paper products they've produced since
that time. If I gathered all the Champions books I own in one place and
stacked them, I think they'd easily go from floor to ceiling and then
some.

I have NEVER seen a company FUBAR an IP like this so badly before.
NEVER. And I worry that the fallout will hurt Hero Games in the
process.

This is a game that has SO MUCH potential. The lore is incredibly deep
(more so if you know the background from the books, like I do).

And it's being left to ROT because of corporate bean counters. To say
that I'm incensed would be to say that Hiroshima was a pretty big
explosion.

holy shit, i've seen a few Game fubars before, but nothing like this. *looks warily at STO, half expecting it to explode*

dark seraph Wrote:holy shit, i've seen a few Game fubars before, but nothing like this. *looks warily at STO, half expecting it to explode*

It damn well better not! Although the background detail Logan provided on CO crashing and burning does have me worried. Hopefully Cryptic still has someone there smart enough to realize that their licence to print money needs to be treated well. But geez... I hadn't been paying attention to CO since I tried it out for a weekend last year. I had problems with the bugs, the technical problems, and all sorts of things, but I'd assumed that there would have been work done on it since then.

Apparently there has, but all the results have been showing up in STO instead. Which... yeah.

Hi, my name is Render, and I'm a Champions Online Lifetime subscriber.

I feel like such a sucker.  At the time, it seemed like a good idea.  I had some mad-money to spend, friends were raving about the game, I'd played it during beta and enjoyed it.  Without a subscription fee, I wouldn't have to feel like I should cancel something else (like CoX) to balance the budget, it was a one-time splurge.  (I haven't been on CoX or these forums much for some time, but I haven't cancelled my subscription, and it has had nothing to do with CO, STO or anything like that... it's just been a RL sandwich that I don't want to get into in this post.)

That was before the Launch Day Nerf and my realization that there were only 5 pairs of defensive powers that don't mix and match, are practically required to play solo (denying you offensive passives) and only scale based on specific stat pairs unlike, well, everything else.  The best guide I've seen to CO char creation has a massive wall of text and tables at level 5 to explain this... followed by a 'Do I really need to know this?  Well, sorry, but yes.' section.  

Unless you get very lucky (or got a Full Retcon) your first CO character(s) will be horribly gimped, but because you don't start seeing the LT/Boss equivalents in numbers for a while, it doesn't become painfully obvious until level 15-20 or so.  And if you do get lucky, the game apparently gets boring fast.  (This according to a friend who raced to the level cap, got bored and cancelled faster than I could get my main char from 15 to 20.)  

During beta, it wasn't obvious that there wasn't any game balance; the game was substantially easier.  Everyone was awesome.  (Sort of.)  After the omni-nerf the game got much harder, to the point where I wasn't playing the game I thought I had purchased, but it was too late to cancel.  I got one character to level 20, used my Retcon... and am currently afraid to leave the Power House and lock in my build, because nothing I've tried in their Danger Room knock off has been satisfactory.  Aside from that char, I have one alt that I've actually played beyond the tutorial (which you can now skip, thank god.)  One.  I've created a baker's dozen beyond that, playing with the costume creator, but never felt motivated to actually play them.  By way of comparison, I have 12 alts on Virtue that I have played into the mid-teens or higher.

The only reason CO is still on my machine is because I don't need the drive space and I can't cancel my subscription, so I might as well let it hang around in case I feel like using the character creator to make NPCs for the RPG I'm running in my garage.  (And I think I like CoX's costume creator better, anyway.  Despite being more limited, the options it does have just look better than their counterparts on CO.  And it's better organized.  And you can actually see your goddamn weapons in it.)

I liked STO during the beta, but I was afraid to buy it because of the CO bait-and-switch.  Seriously, Cryptic.  WTF?

You guys are insufficiently cynical. I'm not angry about this, and this is coming from someone who has played Champions.
I'm not angry. Because I expected this months ago. I got all my disappointment out of the way ages ago. I didn't want to say it at the time - but, Logan, you were wondering why I let my Champions subscription lapse a couple weeks before this came out?
Yeah. I wanted to see how this announcement would turn out. And I expected this outcome. See...
Cryptic never said the big content update to Champions Online would be free. The fact that they're billing this as a paid expansion isn't a surprise to me, because I read between the lines. I suppose this is in part because I've worked in media and marketing. But let me break it down:
They said they would have a big content update in first quarter 2010. This was generally talked about in context of other additions they'd made to the game, like the Celestial powerset and the Nemesis Confrontation lair, which were free. Therefore the quite logical conclusion most people made - and indeed, I suspect, the impression they wanted to give, is that...hey, we're cool and we give you all this stuff.
Thing is, they never said the 2010 content update would be free. They never did. Look carefully. What they did say was that they'd announce their free update and paid expansion plans in 2010. Which again is worded in a way that can suggest a significant amount of stuff will be added for free.
Nowhere did they actually say the lion's share of stuff would be free.
This is, consistently, what they do. Take the lifetime subscriptions for Star Trek Online. There was a live chat shortly before STO was released, where someone asked Jack Emmert...whether they could still buy a lifetime sub for STO after launch, because they have trouble getting the money together now.
Emmert's response was that the special lifetime subscription offer expires on launch date.
Which is completely true, but also completely misleading. The truth is the lifetime subscription offer did expire on launch. You can still buy a lifetime now, at a higher price and without the package perks.
But they didn't actually lie. They never actually lie. This is important.
Now. I'm playing Star Trek Online. But I'm a Trekkie. I'd play Star Trek Online if the collective dev team took a crap in a cardboard box and called it a video game. I fully admit that. I happen to think it's a good game, and a damn sight better than Champions.
I also know this, though: when you look at what Cryptic says, expect exactly what they say, and nothing more.  Don't read anything into what they say. Take it at literal face value.
-- Acyl

Quote:Logan Darklighter wrote:

---

I have NEVER seen a company FUBAR an IP like this so badly before. NEVER. And I worry that the fallout will hurt Hero Games in the process.
This is a game that has SO MUCH potential. The lore is incredibly deep (more so if you know the background from the books, like I do).  

On the subject: after looking up the Champions game sourcebooks, I have to say that Logan is right. The Champions lore is incredible. Unfortunately almost none of that is actually reflected in the game. I mean, really - we all know that they bought the Champions IP to replace the loss of their Marvel license, rather than setting out to develop a Champions game from the beginning. And that shows.
Let me be clear - I think Champions Online is an excellent game. And I mean that it's an excellent game. The combat system and controls are quite possibly the most amazing thing I have EVER played in an MMO. The combat, once you learn the system, is insanely, amazingly, heartbreakingly wonderful. This is an MMO gameplay system that is a true and awesome thing of beauty. This, I think, is what makes Champions shine.
When you get down to it, the reason I was positive about Champions for a while was the combat system. And if I'm honest, that's what I really like about STO too. Combat mechanics.
But CO is not a good Champions game. The problem with Champions Online has always been content. It does not have much - no, let me correct that. It has a lot, but you chew through it very quickly, and the writing's shallow and banal. 
The tragedy is that there's plenty in the actual Champions universe; it's just not used well. 
-- Acyl

Acyl Wrote:I also know this, though: when you look at what Cryptic says, expect exactly what they say, and nothing more.  Don't read anything into what they say. Take it at literal face value.

Point taken, lesson learned.
But then, I wasn't paying particularly close attention to the forums until recently. Then I dug fairly deep. But I know I missed out on context and all. Hard to figure out what's relevant when the forums themselves predate the game by over a year. But I think I got most of it.
I suppose I based my expectations and disappointment on past experience with City of Heroes. As did a lot of people.
Thing is, despite hanging on to the name, this is NOT the same Cryptic team that came up with City of Heroes. Those people went over to NC Soft and became Paragon Studios and continued their work on CoH/CoV. Cryptic isn't really even it's own company anymore. They are the name of Atari's MMO design house. And Atari is calling the shots. (And the entity calling itself Atari isn't really even the old Atari either! They're a French firm formerly known as Infogames that bought out Atari and got the rights and renamed themselves Atari.
The devil, as they say, is in the details.
I didn't know who Bill Roper was, for example. I already was kinda wary with Jack Emmert in a level of authority. But if I'd known the guy who essentially augered Hellgate London into the ground in record time was going to be heading the management of CO, I might have either given the game a complete pass, or, like you, been cynical enough not to be shocked. (Maybe)
So, yeah. The devil is in the details and as much in what is NOT said as what IS said.

The devil himself would be proud of Cryptic. That's some first class leading on by omission, there.

Acyl Wrote:You guys are insufficiently cynical. I'm not angry about this, and this is coming from someone who has played Champions.
I'm not angry. Because I expected this months ago. I got all my disappointment out of the way ages ago. I didn't want to say it at the time - but, Logan, you were wondering why I let my Champions subscription lapse a couple weeks before this came out?
Yeah. I wanted to see how this announcement would turn out. And I expected this outcome.

One thing that confuses me about the above. Later, you say (or inferred, I think) that you were still having fun with CO. If you already knew this and were expecting it, why not just keep playing? Or was it simply a case of limited budget and knowing you were going to be playing STO almost exclusively once it came out and wouldn't have time, so why re-up the sub? (Planning on going back to CO later?)

Acyl Wrote:When you get down to it, the reason I was positive about Champions for a while was the combat system. And if I'm honest, that's what I really like about STO too. Combat mechanics.
But CO is not a good Champions game. The problem with Champions Online has always been content. It does not have much - no, let me correct that. It has a lot, but you chew through it very quickly, and the writing's shallow and banal. 
The tragedy is that there's plenty in the actual Champions universe; it's just not used well. 

Yeah. I was trying to get that point across as well, but you did a better job of it.

Ask anyone who knows me well; I am a veritable fount of cynicism.  And I'm not really angry about CO.  (I've got plenty of better/worse things to stew over.)  Just disappointed.  Really disappointed.
STO looks like a better game.  But I was enthusiastic about CO, too.  

Logan's post prompted me to vent, but I honestly don't care about the recent shenanigans, like the paid expansion announcement.  Why would it be any better than the content we have now? I don't need more of this.  I don't care that they fired the community rep.  (I mean, I feel bad for the poor guy, but it doesn't impact my decision to play or not.)  I stopped checking the CO forums regularly about the time I stopped logging in regularly... in October. 

The combat mechanics [i]are cool, but don't make up for the incoherent advancement or buggy controls.  (Some of the combat mechanics for Tabula Rasa were also cool.)  Or the silly, shallow writing.  (The Winter 'Event' is being attacked by a giant cyborg teddy bear?  Really?)  Or that 'endless flexibility' as implemented in CO actually means "By the way, a full retcon is only $5."[/i]

I'm waiting for the STO equivalent of the Launch Day or I6 Nerf to see whether it sucks all the fun out the game.

Quote:Logan Darklighter wrote:

---

One thing that confuses me about the above. Later, you say (or inferred, I think) that you were still having fun with CO. If you already knew this and were expecting it, why not just keep playing? Or was it simply a case of limited budget and knowing you were going to be playing STO almost exclusively once it came out and wouldn't have time, so why re-up the sub? (Planning on going back to CO later?)

I played Champions Online for exactly 60 days. 30 free, and then I subscribed for another month.
This brought me pretty much exactly to when Open Beta for Star Trek Online began. I was pretty circumspect when I talked to you about this, pretty much because I didn't wish to be negative or start any sort of argument. So what I said at that point...was that I let my Champions Online sub lapse while I played STO beta.
Which was true. In fact that was the main reason - I simply knew I'd be playing STO beta, and indeed STO after launch, so it didn't make sense to stay subscribed to Champions during this period.
But there's a second line to my thinking. See, I budget for City of Heroes subscriptions in long blocks. I subscribe for six months, a year. I didn't exactly have the confidence to do the same for Champions. Before making any decision going forward, I wanted to hear what they had to say about expansion plans.
By that point, I'd realised that while I truly, truly love the Champions combat system, the game's got plenty of other shortcomings. If it sounds like I'm jumping on the 'trash Champions' bandwagon at this point, I'm...not. I still like the game. As a game. I think it's an amazing game.
It's just not an amazing MMO. I think that's the distinction I couldn't quite grok during the period of time I was really really excited about Champions.
To be fair, the same statement could be made of Star Trek Online. Excellent game, but the MMO qualities may well be lacking. I think it does better than Champions - but as I've noted, I'm enough of a Trekkie that I'd play STO even if it were an 8-bit sidescroller, so you need to take everything I say about STO with a grain of salt.
-- Acyl

Fair enough.

Vibora Bay expansion is now free

The Champions devs are basically like 'okay sorry guys, we listened, it's free now'.

I wonder whether this has anything to do with the CoH Issue 17 news coming out today.
-- Acyl