Okay. I recently took a look at the page with the Fuzion stats for Doug and was seriously bugged by them. This was actually several months back, but I looked at them again the other day and had the same reaction. Doug feels WAY overpowered for the BGC mileu according to these stats and the translation doesn't feel right somehow overall, outside of the power level issue. Something crucual was missing from the conversion.
I haven't ever had an opportunity to play Fuzion, but I have the Bubblegum Crisis books and the New Millenium stuff. Plus I am a Hero System player, and there's conversion statistics for Fuzion in the back of BGC: Before and After. So I can tell what's usually reasonable in Fuzion terms and how that would translate to Hero. So after looking at the character sheet again and going over the source materiel and the rational behind the conversion, I wrote up Doug's Fuzion character sheet myself, sticking to what Bob had done first and looking everything over with a critical eye. I looked at what the stat, skill or power was and what rationalizations were for each and the source of them. What was the intended effect, and how that might be better represented.
I came to some conclusions --
1) His actual powers; The Polykev, Improbability Field, and Song Powers are all okay. Nothing wrong there. That works.
2) His Intelligence, Reflexes, and Dexterity are way more than they should be for what he's supposed to be and the "ecological niche" of his powers(more on that below). All the rest of his stats are pretty reasonable for a superhero.
3) Many of the skills listed are 1-3 Points too high.
Okay - on the stats issue. I think the translation from V&V to Fuzion ran into a problem translating the paradigm. It doesn't help that Fuzion is a little unclear on it's own concepts. Plus the fact that the statistical curve is so uneven. It helps if you know the conversion from Hero and know THAT system to compare everything else to. I've converted V&V stats to Hero before myself as well as converted Hero to Fuzion and back again. So here's a few things to consider --
Hero stats start off with everyone having a "10" in each stat for free. That's baseline average human. You can sell off stats if you want to be a little challenged, or as in most cases, buy them up. 20 is usually considered as the _usual_ human maximum for "real world" campaigns. But it's not a hard and fast breakpoint. There's no rule that says "this and no further or you are superhuman." (One of the stated goals of the Hero system is that it's trying to simulate heroic fiction rather than hard realism!) One of the example characters in Champions is a guy called Seeker, a martial artist. He's supposed to be nothing more than a normal human who's trained himself to a level most normal people don't reach. A normal average human would have STR 10, DEX 10, and SPD (that's actions per turn) of 2. Seeker's got a STR of 25, a DEX of 29, and a SPD of 7(!). Admittedly, that's pretty high. But at that point in his career, he's pretty much at the experience level of Captain America.
On intelligence - If baseline average for Hero intelligence is 10, and the usual maximum is 20. Then you can reasonably say that it follows the regular IQ chart on a 1 to 10 progression. A 10 INT equalls 100 IQ. A 20 equals a 200 IQ - etc, etc...
Most Fuzion Stats can be converted to Hero by multiplying by 3. Doug's Fuzion INT to Hero is 15x3=45.
That's a 45 Intelligence in Hero. He's the Watcher from Marvel Universe at that scale. You starting to see why I boggled?
Similarly the DEX score: 16x3=48
So that's a 48 DEX.
Okay, now he's the Barry Allen Flash... More boggle...
(For reference, in the Fuzion Superhero supplement "Bay City", their resident experienced speedster -- called "Speedster" oddly enough -- has REF 13 and DEX 11)
Okay, it says in the concordance that
~"my intelligence is a 3.00 on the Berkeley-Binet scale"
On the more familiar Stanford-Binet test, that would be close to a 300 IQ. And the difference in the names and scales? A different university involved in the development of the test.~
Okay, so if he's supposed to be close to 300 IQ, then if we say that his INT is 30 in Hero, divide by 3 for Fuzion, we get 10. Which I think is much more reasonable and closer to original concept. Okay, I can buy that.
Okay, that's good to go. Now onward.
Similarly -
~"a Valmon reflex/speed rating of 470"
"Valmon" is from Andrew Valmon, an Olympic athlete with whom I went to high school. (Gold medalist, 4 X 400m relay, Seoul and Barcelona.) Human normal is 100 on this scale.~
At first glance, this appears straightforward to translate to the Hero system, and from there, to translate over to the Fuzion system (simply divide by 3 to get the Fuzion stat), and it is. If baseline on the Valmon scale is 100, then all we need to do is divide by 10 to get an idea of Doug's DEX score.
Unfortunately...
That still leaves him with a 47 DEX.
That's just ludicrous.
I've never seen any playable character in Hero with a DEX over 36. And _those_ guys are the serious speedsters. In Wally West territory thereabouts.
There's not just a game balance issue here, there's an entire _concept_ issue here. Something is not translating right, as I posited at the beginning of this article. I'm wondering if it's on the V&V end of things. I know it's possible to get some really wild scores when you are rolling up characters in V&V, so I'm guessing that that's where the culprit lies.
This is why I prefer point-based systems over roll based systems. It's easier to check for balance issues and make sure everyone is in the same ballbark in terms of setting power level.
Ah well, so it looks like we're going to have to fudge things to get it right.
The questions I have to ask myself are these -
--Is Doug supposed to be more of a Martial Artist or a Speedster in terms of his physical prowess?
--How does he get presented in the story? How does that relate to the above? And similarly, how does he compare to the Knightsabers and Boomers in the story?
I don't think he comes off as a speedster in Drunkard's Walk II. Very fast martial artist, yes, but not so fast I can justify the straight translation of stats like the above. He just doesn't seem _that_ much faster than, say, Linna or Priss in their hardsuits. I'd say on average, he's only getting off a couple more actions than any of them per turn. Say - a SPD 6 or 7 to their 4 or 5.
So - to go back to the intent of the original _concept_ and fudge things to bring _that_ over, should be the goal.
Speaking of balance issues, there's one other thing to consider, when using the stats of the characters as presented in BGC as a guide. There's actually an alternate set of stats for everyone that's in a lower power scale that was introduced in the third supplement, Bubblegum Crisis EX. I happen to like those stats better overall for translation purposes.
I mean, in the original BGC book, Linna has a DEX of 10. Which translates to a HERO DEX of 30.
Granted, if you just use the characters as is and don't reference anything else, it generally works in it's own powerscale. But even internally, there are still some weird moments. Such as...
Leon has a STR of 7. He can pick up a motorcycle and _THROW_ it???
Ummm... no...
(Bean Bandit on the other hand...)
As an example, Priss' original Fuzion stats if translated straight to HERO system look like this:
STR.....20
DEX.....24
CON.....30
BODY...10
INT......15
EGO.....21
PRE.....24
COM....31
PD......10
ED......15
SPD......5
REC.....11
END.....60
STUN...35
And that's _without_ her Hardsuit!
Here's the BGC EX Revised Fuzion Stats translated to Hero
STR.....15
DEX.....18
CON.....24
BODY...10
INT......12
EGO.....18
PRE......18
COM.....24
PD.........8
ED.......12
SPD.......4
REC.......8
END.....48
STUN...30
Much more reasonable. Although I'd still ramp the CON down to at least 20 and the Comliness down to 18 (she's a looker, but she's not THAT hot.)
I'd use the EX Character sheets as a better baseline for comparison. They were made after the makers of Fuzion determined that normal baseline humans ranged from 1-8 rather than 1-10. Remeber, BGC was the very first Fuzion book produced. R' Talsorian tweaked many bugs out with later books.
With all of that in mind, here's my revision of Doug's character sheet. First the stat section.
----------
LOONEY TOONS / DOUGLAS SANGNOIR
INT......10
WILL....9.......RES 27
PRE......9
TECH....6
REF......10.....SPD 6
DEX......10
CON......8......SD 18.......ED 18.......END 80
STR......7.......REC 19
BODY....11.....STUN 45...HITS 65
MOVE.....9.....RUN 18.....SPRINT 27
...................SWIM 9.....LEAP 9
-----------
As you can see, I left most of his stats the way Bob had them. INT at 10 puts him in the superheroic category for Intelligence. For comparison, the EX version of Sylia's INT is 8 and Nene's is 7.
I decided on 10's for his REF and DEX. That puts him firmly in the Superheroic category for those stats without getting ridiculous. In Hero terms, he's got a DEX of 30. Which is about where your world-class paranormal martial artists are in most Hero references. I could easily be argued into raising that one pip higher to 11 (HERO DEX 33). But I thought this was a good round number.
Note that if you use the optional SPD stat that his is a 6, which means he'll be moving twice more per phase than the even the fastest Knight Saber Linna at a SPD 4. Note also that a BU-55C Combat Boomer would only have a SPD 3. So Doug would be moving twice as often, on average. Even the fastest Hyperboomer only gets up to a SPD 4.
----------
COST....COMPLICATIONS......(BASE: 50)
5..........Stubborn
15........Code of Honor
15........Protective of Innocents
15........In Love with Shadowwalker
----------
I thought a couple of extra complications fit in here. I could easily think of more, based on what I've read in the story.
Next, his skill list --
----------
COST....SKILLS, TALENTS & PERKS........AV/DV
3.......*Perception: 5..........................15
2.......*Concentration: 4.....................14
E.......*Persuasion: 2..........................11
4.......*Education: 6...........................16
E.......*Local Expert: 2.........................8
E.......*Teacher: 2.............................12
4.......*Hand-to-Hand: 6.....................16
4.......*Melee Evade: 6.......................16
4.......*Athletics: 6............................16
6.......Ranged Evade: 6.......................16
3.......Melee Weapons: 3.....................13
8.......Acrobatics: 8............................18
9.......Computers: 9............................19
4.......Detective: 4.............................14
2.......Disguise: 2...............................12
5.......Driving: (Motorcycles) 5..............15
6.......Expert: International Law &
................Enforcement: 6..................16
3.......Expert: UN: 3............................13
10......Expert: American/British Pop
................Music: 10..........................20
5.......Expert: Movies & TV: 5...............15
6.......Electronic Warfare: 6.................16
4.......Espionage: 4............................14
3.......Firearms: 3..............................13
5.......English: 5 (Mimic any Accent)......15
3.......French: 3................................13
4.......Gambling: 4..............................14
10.....Hacking: 10.............................20
5.......Japanese: 5.............................15
4.......Leadership: 4............................13
4.......Mechanics: 4............................14
3.......Pilot: 3....................................13
3.......Research: 3.............................13
5.......Stealth: 5................................15
6.......Electrical Engineering: 6.............16
1.......Handsome
9.......Membership: Warriors 9
9.......License Warrior: 9
3.......Martial Arts
15.....Combat Sense: 5
10.....Derived Stats: +1 SPD
----------
You'll notice that I actually added some things here. Everyman skills (Indicated with a "*") are skills that everyone gets at level 2 automatically for free. They are marked with an "E", above, when no points were spent to increase them. I toned down a few of his skills, as I generally felt like going over an AV of 20 was going too far. I also noticed when going over skills what I thought was a pattern. Many of Doug's skills seemed to follow a curve that matched Sylia's with a 1-2 point remove. Hmmmm... Okay, I may reading more into this than is really there, but it was a handy reference anyway, so I kept that curve, but matched it to the EX version of Sylia for the most part.
But I kept his Hacking and Music reference skills where they were arbitraily. He really does come off in the story as THAT damn good.
Notice that his 1 point of extra Speed is bought here. In Fuzion, you buy your skills with Option Points and you can also buy up one of your Derived Stats that way as well.
I'm curious though, as to why he has Gambling as a skill. Must be something in his background as a Warrior we haven't seen alluded to. Or it'll come up later.
Powers next --
----------
COST....POWERS
Improbability Field:
8.........Acts as +10 DEX, Activation 12-, for defensive rolls
..........only. Special Effect: Random strange things alter or
..........divert the attack.
Mage Sight:
6........Discriminatory sense: detect meta-human;
..........Discriminatory Detect Magic with Range
Song Power:
30.......Power Framework: 22 pt VPP w/11 pt control cost
..........(-1 pt Burnout (8- on 3d6), -2 pt attached focus,
..........-2 Requires simple skill roll (8 +1 pt per VPP), +1 pt
..........wide SFX))
Polykev armor:
7........1 kill each of ED and PD. Armor radiates damage away
..........as heat, 1 round per D6 intercepted, giving +(dice left
..........to radiate) to any heat- or IR-based perception used
..........against him.
----------
Nothing got changed here. Except I figured the costs for the powers. I ignored END costs for the powers, as that would complicate things too much.
Doug's Point Costs are:
Character Points (CP): 89
Option Points (OP): 194
Power Points (PP): 51
Well, I hope I've provided something to think about and haven't offended too much. I've been thinking about translating the Bubblegum Crisis Fuzion characters over to Hero system anyway, so that's at least parially what brought all this on. I also wanted to make Doug a little more consistant with his portrayal in the story in game terms.
Maybe, since I've spent this much effort thinking about it, I'll go ahead and do a full translation and make Doug a 5th Edition Hero System character sheet!
-Logan
Actually,I think Logan,that while you have got Doug's INT score right,you may have reduced his DEX too much.Remember,his best attribute is his DEX.I personally think that Doug is at least a 12 in Fuzion terms.Doug should be able to defeat Lady Shiva (the 20th Century DC Universe's best martial artist) after all."There's only one kind of monster that uses bullets""There's only one kind of monster that uses bullets"
I'd agree with Morgan on the Dexterity score.
If 100 on the Valmon whatsit is human norm, than that's about a 3 or 4. 4.7 times human normal would be between 14 and 19 and I'd lead towards the lower score from the descriptions.
IIRC, FUZION defines anything above 7 to be highly unusual, but within human capacity e.g. someone with very specialised apitudes might have them. So STR 10 would be one of the dozen or so strongest humans alive for example. DEX 10 isn't unreasonable in that range, but it's not distinctly paranormal.
12 seems a good compromise between those two arguements.
D for Drakensis
You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
> Actually,I think Logan,that while you have got
> Doug's INT score right,you may have reduced his
> DEX too much.Remember,his best attribute is his
> DEX.I personally think that Doug is at least a 12
> in Fuzion terms.Doug should be able to defeat Lady
> Shiva (the 20th Century DC Universe's best martial
> artist) after all.
I don't know who Lady Shiva is and I've never seen her published in a Fuzion book. Forgive me, but I don't know DC comics all that well beyond "the big names". I don't know what Lady Shiva's stats and skills would be, so I can't make a direct comparison with her. I can only go with what I've got handy.
For comparison purposes, I was going with what has actually seen publication in Fuzion books, such as "Champions: The New Millenium", "Alliances", and "Bay City", for superhero comparisons, and the Bubblegum Crisis trio of books for purposes of direct comparison of the current setting. Note that I included their "Speedster" character above as a comparison. And he only has a REF 13 and DEX of 11. Most of their high-end martial artist type characters only go up to 10 on their REF/DEX scores. And the exceptions to that, such as Crusader in Bay City, only go up to 11.
Further, a REF/DEX of 10, corresponds to a Hero DEX of 30. And I compared that score to dozens of martial arts characters that Hero had published in various products, such as "Watchers of the Dragon" (now out of print, sadly.) Only 2-3 of those characters had a DEX above 30, and those were the absolute top end. The average martial artist has a DEX of 26 and a SPD of 5-6. The highest I saw was Lin Hu, in WOTD, with a DEX 35, SPD 7, which would correspond to a Fuzion REF/DEX of 12. And he's an immortal who's been around for a couple of hundred years. He isn't even built with normal martial arts, but has a power pool for martial arts powers! Definately someone who would wipe the floor with Doug in terms of sheer physical prowess, IMHO.
Speedsters in Hero terms tend to start with DEX scores in the low 30's and top out at in the high 30's. As I said above, I've never seen a published Hero character with a DEX higher than 36. I've heard of campaigns that have allowed higher. And there are a few character sheets that people have put out on the web for characters like The Flash with DEX scores in the low to mid 40's. But that's about it. SPD scores tend to start at 6 for Speedsters and go to the absolute max of SPD 12 for your top end characters like The Flash.
To bring all this back to Fuzion, I'd say that REF/DEX scores for paranormal martial artists should absolutely top out at 11, and speedster REF/DEX scores should start at the same point with a top end of around 15 or 16.
Doug, as presented in Drunkard's Walk, doesn't come across as a Speedster to me. He's a top end martial artist who's clearly in the paranormal range of ability.
> I'd agree with Morgan on the Dexterity score.
> If 100 on the Valmon whatsit is human norm,
> than that's about a 3 or 4. 4.7 times human
> normal would be between 14 and 19 and I'd
> lead towards the lower score from the
> descriptions.
I apologise, but I should have been more clear in my article above. I meant to be, but somewhere in the writing, I forgot to explicitly state this -
I had to completely throw out the "Valmon Index" in terms of absolute numerical translation precisely because it was giving me unacceptable numbers. Using it as a straight DEX comparison was what was producing the Hero DEX 47 / Fuzion REF/DEX 16. It was also giving him a SPD of 8 in Fuzion terms. Yikes. As I said before, that's out in Barry Allen/Flash territory.
At this point, the logic admittedly becomes fuzzy and arbitrary. I went with what I could glean from how Doug was presented in the story and what, in terms of game balance would be acceptable in terms of playability were I to theoretically include him in any campaign like the one in BGC.
What is his "ecological niche" in terms of what he is as a superhero? He's not a speedster, that's for sure. He doesn't seem to move _that_ much faster on average than the Knight Sabers or Boomers. So we go with the concept that he's a martial artist and compare and contrast that concept with other martial artists both in Fuzion and Hero. Put him near or at the top of that scale, and see how he compares. And as it turns out, he compares quite favorably. He's _still_ getting in nearly half again as many actions in the same amount of time with a better overall ability to attack or dodge than everything around him in the BGC world, and that's not even counting his "field" to help him out.
Like I said, it's a guess, but it's an educated guess. If I had to rationalize the Valmon score based on this, I'd count in the SPD score on top of the REF/DEX in order to ballpark the figure. Since the extra SPD has to be bought with 10 extra points per level, I'd count those points towards his DEX score in the Valmon rating. If he has a (Hero) DEX 30, that gives him an automatic (Hero) SPD 4. Add 20 points to raise his score from SPD 4 to SPD 6. Add the raw point score of 20 to his absolute DEX of 30 and you get 50. You only have to fudge by 3 to get his "Valmon" rating of DEX 47.
Or look at it another way. Use the Valmon rating as DEX score plus the character points needed to raise SPD. You can either have a raw DEX score equal to the Valmon rating outright. Or, if that's too extreme, lower the DEX, but use the extra points to raise the SPD to match.
or - in raw numbers =
Valmon Index =470
Divide by 10 to get DEX and/or SPD points.
470/10 = 47
47 is too high a DEX for the campaign. Drop to 30
DEX 30, with 17 points left.
Dex 30 makes for a Derived SPD of 4. In order to raise it to 6, you need 20 points. Doug needs 3 extra points in order to do that, but we'll fudge it and assume he's got the experience he needs to do so. So now he has the SPD 6.
Translate to Fuzion by dividing his DEX by 3 to get his REF/DEX score. And use Option points to raise the SPD to match.
Voila! And there you have it!
> IIRC, FUZION defines anything above 7 to be
> highly unusual, but within human capacity e.g.
> someone with very specialised apitudes might have
> them. So STR 10 would be one of the dozen or so
> strongest humans alive for example. DEX 10 isn't
> unreasonable in that range, but it's not distinctly
> paranormal.
Actually, in later Fuzion products, they redefined things such that 1-8 is human norm. With 8-10 being "Incredible". And 10 is, in some campaigns, the beginning of Superheroic. There's some overlap there.
> 12 seems a good compromise between those two
> arguments.
Well, as I said, I might be convinced that he could go to REF/DEX 11. But no higher than that. Right now, I think 10 reflects him well. As far as I'm concerned, 11 is the breakpoint between martial artists and speedsters. If you're at 12, you're a dedicated speedster. And Doug isn't that.
Anyway. I hope I made my rationalizations and logic as clear as they can be. But if I can't convince you, I'm not going to worry about it too much.
-Logan
Okay, let me start by saying I've just gone through the initial post. I'll start by pointing out that the Fuzion character sheet page does discuss the methodology I used in my conversions and my reasonings for the same. I know that I show an example of how differences, though miniscule, in base assumptions change the results.
Attributes
Firstly, I
know the Agility conversion is problematic. As I said on the webpage:
Quote:
Agility: Became the Fuzion Refl and Dex attributes. Because no other factors lent themselves to the conversion, I initially multipled a Fuzion 9 by 2.6 (V&V 47 divided by human maximum of 18) . However, the resulting score of 23 (rounded down) seemed so excessive for Fuzion (not to mention the purposes of the story) that I lopped it down to an admittedly arbitrary 16.
This is the main point where the awful unevenness of the Fuzion scale really screws up the conversion. Doug is 4.7 times as agile/dextrous/whatever as a theoretically average human -- in V&V. In Fuzion, though, to get some of the same combat effects, he had to be 8 or more times as fast... [/i]
As for what it should be, well, I'm with the others in that 12 is too low. Doug is the second most... um, I can't find a good general adjective -- acrobatic, dextrous, graceful -- of the Warriors. I think only Hexe has a higher Agility, and that by not much. All the other Warriors who are faster in combat than him get that way with the initialive bonus from the Heightened Speed super power. (How fast are we, in general? Well, our rule of thumb for a combat is that if the enemy is still standing after 15 seconds, they're
tough.)
To get a way from that, a question on Strength. Doug mentions way back in, um, chapter 9, that he can get an adrenal burst to his strength in crisis situations. Maybe we should put a limitation on that STR score to cover it?
If it helps, here are Doug's stats from the moment he went on the Walk in-game. Not that they differ from the stats I used for the initial Fuzion conversion.
Strength 12
Endurance 17
Agility 47
Intelligence 30
Charisma 17
If you can use these to refine your conversion, great. Just remember, these are based off a standard 3-18 bell curve with 10.5 as the theoretical human average. Oh, and I (obviously) don't have EX -- I only have
Before and After, which I only got a couple months ago. Everything up to now has been using the original book.
Complications
New ones -- I like. Quite proper.
Skills
To start with here, I suspected skills were too high, and said so on the page. I didn't have Sylia's writeup in front of me when I assigned their values, so any pattern-matching there is a coincidence.
Your additions to the set are good; I certainly approve of them. The only thing I'd add would be Valdemaran, which is inexplicably missing from the web page, and which he speaks like a native. (Just as a certain young Herald has a native grasp of American English, Southern California dialect...)
As for the question of the Gambling skill, I honestly can't remember why I included that. It's probably the result of a specific adventure that's not coming to mind at the moment; I'll have to ask Helen, Peggy or one of the other players if they might recall.
Powers
Thanks for calculating them out. I really had no idea how to do that -- nor the information to do it.
Other
In regards to the "niche" he occupies, he is no speedster -- the Warriors have several speedster characters, and he's on the low end of the middle range of ground speed. He is a martial artist, although that was a skill he acquired after character creation. In old Champions terms, though, he is mostly an Energy Projector, although a very, very different one.
And don't worry about having offended. I'm in fact very grateful that you took the time to make him work out right in the system -- I
knew I had to have bungled it somewhere, simply by virtue of the fact that I was working with a system that I didn't really know. I'd like to put your version up on the Fuzion page, if you don't mind -- with proper credit, of course.
Um. Just had a thought -- I choreographed some combat in the coming chapter 12 using the first book's stats. EX's recalcs might change things. For instance, what's the lifting capacity of Nene's hardsuit now?
Anyway, thanks for putting in so much effort -- I really do appreciate it.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Oh yeah, I probably should have said from the beginning that this should be read as an _alternate_ version of Doug's character sheet. Bob obviously has final say on the matter, no matter what I may think.
I actually _have_ V&V 2nd Ed floating around somewhere in my house. I really should dig it out to take a look at things. But I think my logic still holds.
Now that I think about it though, one of the V&V Enemies books - I think Enemies III, (or is that Villains III?)- has conversion notes for Champions in it! D'OH!! I can't believe I didn't remember that before now!
I'm at work right now and don't have access to it, but I can't wait to see what it says about conversions. It's not even all that dated. That set of conversion notes would have been about the time of Champions 3rd edition. And the stats are still the same as of 4th and 5th edition, which means they would use the same conversion formula to Fuzion.
-Logan
This is more a flag for Logan, who's online at the same time I am. I just revised my initial post above, in case you hadn't noticed.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Quote:
Firstly, I know the Agility conversion is problematic. As I said on the webpage:
(Snip)
As for what it should be, well, I'm with the others in that 12 is too low. Doug is the second most... um, I can't find a good general adjective -- acrobatic, dextrous, graceful -- of the Warriors. I think only Hexe has a higher Agility, and that by not much.
I would be curious to see what all the Agility scores are. But I'm getting the impression here that maybe my assumption of him as
primarily a martial artist might be in question. I went and reread selected portions of text in the story and keep getting references to "blinding" speed when others view him in action. But it seems that he's not getting off significantly more combat actions per turn than what I posited above. This would argue for a high REF/DEX score, but not a corresponding leap in SPD. In other words, I still think he's not moving at an 8 SPD, but more like a 6. I
think you can buy back SPD from DEX in Fuzion, but I don't have the Core rulebook with me right now.
Quote:
All the other Warriors who are faster in combat than him get that way with the initiative bonus from the Heightened Speed super power. (How fast are we, in general? Well, our rule of thumb for a combat is that if the enemy is still standing after 15 seconds, they're tough.)
So, one turn of combat, eh? Leaves more room in the game session for character stuff certainly. ^_^
I don't have the V&V manuals with me right now, or I could give a more exact response here. But in trying to remember what the conversion process from V&V to Champions was, I seem to recall that initiative and initiative bonuses were more directly correlated to Hero SPD than DEX.
Initiative in V&V is how many times you move in a single turn and who moves first in that order. And there's no upper limit to that as long as you have the bonuses (gah, trying to piece this together solely from memory) I think. So V&V Initiative roughly = SPD(Speed) and Agility = DEX in Champions/Hero. I'll have to find the exact formula later. But it
does exist.
If I recall correctly, V&V Superheroes tend to convert to very high DEX and SPD in Champions. That no upper limit on initiative might be one reason. Theoretically, if you rolled during character creation and kept getting Initiative bonuses, you could stack them extremely high.
Yup - paradigm problem here, if I'm right.
Quote:
To get a way from that, a question on Strength. Doug mentions way back in, um, chapter 9, that he can get an adrenal burst to his strength in crisis situations. Maybe we should put a limitation on that STR score to cover it?
Sure. You could lower his regular STR, and then buy extra STR in powers, with a limitation that it uses more endurance.
I don't think the original Champions: New Millenium book had that in the rules. The powers section was woefully inadequate. But I think the new Fuzion Core rules might have it. In any case, it would mirror Hero System. So we can build it that way and port over.
In Hero System, Doug currently has a Fuzion STR 7 (Hero STR 35). We could lower that to Fuzion STR 4 (Hero STR 20) and then do the following in Hero-
+15 STR, x 2 END (-1/2)
Which would be 15 points divided by 1.5 for the limitation.
That reduces the point cost from 15 to 10. The cost in Fuzion would be 2 Power Points (STR is bought at 1-1)
STR costs 1 point of END for 10 points used in Hero. Translated to Fuzion, that means that Doug's current STR 7 costs him 3 END to use everytime he has an action where he utilizes it. (Which for him, is almost everytime) BTW, he'd use the identical amount of END in Hero.
But if we use the above, then Doug has a STR of 4, which only costs him 2 END to use. But if he uses his extra STR, he has to spend
5 END to use it instead of 3.
We could even go more costly in the END penalty than that if we wanted to. Make it even cheaper, but more costly for him to use.
Quote:
Oh, and I (obviously) don't have EX -- I only have Before and After, which I only got a couple months ago. Everything up to now has been using the original book.
Okay, here's where I'll put in the caveat. I think that Doug isn't anywhere near as overpowered compared to
those stats than I think he would be to the EX stats. If you are just going from those, then Doug is almost reasonable.
It's just that I don't think the original BGC stats are right either, in terms of how they translate to other systems. (BTW, this is only in regard to the character stats. All the devices and mecha listed in all 3 BGC books is good as far as I'm concerned.)
I think a bunch of hero-worshipping fanboys wrote the first BGC book with an over the top attitude towards what their favorite characters were capable of. That's
okay, within context, for the most part with a few notable exceptions. (Leon throwing motoslaves around - twitch... twitch...)
And for your purposes in "reality checking" Doug against the Sabers. His original stats probably are just fine.
But I guess what my mindset is right now is - I think I'm trying to "reality check" Doug for
anywhere he might go after this that you have reference for gamewise.
At the same time, I'm suggesting that the toned down EX character stats might work better overall for most purposes in actually portraying the Knight Sabers and other characters next to everything else in the books in terms of reference. They also are a better source for porting over to Hero. Which (in my not so humble opinion) is the absolute best gaming system for simulating - well - anything you want to. And that the toned down version of Doug would work better with the EX stats, and by extension, would be easier to "cross-check" against other characters. (BTW - There's a metric
butt-load of write-ups for anime characters over at
Surbrook's Stuff Character Archive if you're interested. Including a take on Belldandy, Urd and Skuld!)
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Your additions to the set are good; I certainly approve of them. The only thing I'd add would be Valdemaran, which is inexplicably missing from the web page, and which he speaks like a native. (Just as a certain young Herald has a native grasp of American English, Southern California dialect...)
Consider it done!
![[Image: smile.gif]](http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/images/emoticons/smile.gif)
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Thanks for calculating them out. I really had no idea how to do that -- nor the information to do it.
Like I indicated above - in a pinch, you can use the Hero system to completely stat out a power, and then just divide the cost by 5 to get the Fuzion version. Differences should be almost negligible. There should be a more comprehensive powers list in the latest iteration of the Fuzion rules.
Quote:
In regards to the "niche" he occupies, he is no speedster -- the Warriors have several speedster characters, and he's on the low end of the middle range of ground speed. He is a martial artist, although that was a skill he acquired after character creation. In old Champions terms, though, he is mostly an Energy Projector, although a very, very different one.
Understood. Although I'm beginning to think he
might be justified in the lower end stats of as much as a REF/DEX 12. Conveniently enough, if we bumped him to an 11 or 12 in REF, he wouldn't have to pay the extra OP cost for his 6 SPD. It would be inherent.
Quote:
And don't worry about having offended. I'm in fact very grateful that you took the time to make him work out right in the system -- I knew I had to have bungled it somewhere, simply by virtue of the fact that I was working with a system that I didn't really know. I'd like to put your version up on the Fuzion page, if you don't mind -- with proper credit, of course.
By all means, good sir! ^_^ But let's get things finalized first. I suspect there's some tweaking left to do here.
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Um. Just had a thought -- I choreographed some combat in the coming chapter 12 using the first book's stats. EX's recalcs might change things. For instance, what's the lifting capacity of Nene's hardsuit now?
It's the same. They didn't change her STR any. (How can you go lower than 1? >_
After digging for about 10 minutes through the various boxes and shelves in my house, found my V&V stuff. Wow, this brings back memories. All of this stuff is at least 17-20 years old!
Anyway, the book I was looking for was "Most Wanted Volume 3" - An enemies book with 30 supervillain characters in it. And in the back are conversion tables for both Champions and Superworld.
For Champions, all the basic stats are covered, as well as a guide for converting powers. It isn't an exact science, and these wind up being more like suggestions, and since this would be circa Champions 3rd Edition, some of the powers are a little out of date. But Champions stats haven't changed since then, so that part is still useful.
Here are the Stat formulas, quoted verbatim:
STR: Use the Champions Strenght Chart to find the Champions STR that represents the the V&V character's carrying capacity. Use the V&V lift numbers straight, do not convert from pounds to kilograms
DEX: 15 + (3 x V&V Accuracy)
CON: 1/3 of V&V Power Score
BODY: 6 + V&V Basic Hits
INT: V&V Intelligence
EGO: V&V Charisma
COM: Player's choice
SPD: (V&V Agility + Initiative Bonus [if any] )/10 + 3
Okay, I've got V&V out in front of me so running Doug's stats through this filter gives us:
STR...20
DEX...36
CON...35
BODY...10
INT...30
EGO...17
COM...17 (Based on his Fuzion score)
PRE...28 (Ditto)
(Secondary Characteristics figured straight with no points added)
PD...4
ED...7
SPD...7
END...70
STUN...38
Did I not say that V&V translated characters tended toward high DEX and SPD in Hero? ^_^
Anyway...
Translated to Fuzion Stats this gives us:
INT......10
WILL....6
PRE......9
TECH....11
REF......12
DEX......12
CON......11
STR......4
BODY....8
MOVE.....9
Well, that gave us some weird results, didn't it? On the one hand, it verified the INT score. And since I was leaning toward a REF/DEX of 12, I think this convinces me to use that value. But the WILL score is too low, the TECH score is really out there, and the CON and BODY scores have switched values!
How about we leave the WILL, TECH, CON and BODY scores where you had them originally and use the new INT and SPD values? We can use the STR 4 plus extra STR mechanic that I indicated in the post above. SPD can stay at 6 with no OP points needed to increase it, or if you really feel like it, use the current OP expenditure to go ahead and increase it to 7.
That would make Dougs stats look like this -
----------
LOONEY TOONS / DOUGLAS SANGNOIR
INT......10
WILL....9.......RES 27
PRE......9
TECH....6
REF......12.....SPD 6
DEX......12
CON......8......SD 18.......ED 18.......END 80
STR......4(7)...REC 19
BODY....11.....STUN 45...HITS 65
MOVE.....9.....RUN 18.....SPRINT 27
...................SWIM 9.....LEAP 9
-----------
What do you think?
BTW, just as an aside - looking through these old V&V books, I have to say, they came up with some of most bizarre, lame, and corny supervillains of all time! With the occasional real gem in there.
Man, some of these guys look like they belong in the movie "Mystery Men"... Yikes. ^_^;;
-Logan
Quote:
found my V&V stuff. Wow, this brings back memories. All of this stuff is at least 17-20 years old!
Yeah, sounds about right. I first saw V&V back in 1981, when I was in college...
Quote:
That would make Dougs stats look like this -
----------
LOONEY TOONS / DOUGLAS SANGNOIR
INT......10
WILL....9.......RES 27
PRE......9
TECH....6
REF......12.....SPD 6
DEX......12
CON......8......SD 18.......ED 18.......END 80
STR......4(7)...REC 19
BODY....11.....STUN 45...HITS 65
MOVE.....9.....RUN 18.....SPRINT 27
...................SWIM 9.....LEAP 9
-----------
What do you think?
Hmm. You have the Stun and Hits reversed; it should be 65/45. Beyond that... I think we have to agree to disagree on the Ref/Dex issue.
Which reminds me. As I'm the current Warriors' World GM, I have the Big Campaign Book (a huge binder which has been the central repository for Warriors Alpha since the middle 80s). I went digging through the copies of the other Warriors' character sheets therein. I was wrong -- Hexe is not more Agile than Doug. In fact, no one in the Warriors is.
Quote:
BTW, just as an aside - looking through these old V&V books, I have to say, they came up with some of most bizarre, lame, and corny supervillains of all time! With the occasional real gem in there.
Man, some of these guys look like they belong in the movie "Mystery Men"... Yikes. ^_^;;
You don't have to tell us. "Lame" seems to be the operative word for all the sample characters -- they almost seem deliberately built as weak as possible. Any single Warrior -- including Dwimanor, arguably the physically weakest of us -- could take on the entire gang of sample characters in the basic book and not break a sweat.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Okay, just now getting to the earlier message...
Quote:
I would be curious to see what all the Agility scores are.
If you don't need them correlated to individual characters, the numbers are:
20, 24, 24, 28, 29, 30, 34, 38, 39, 42, 42, 47
That's including Doug, and several inactive members, but not including Silverbolt, whose character sheet I can't find right now.
Quote:
keep getting references to "blinding" speed when others view him in action
Do I actually say "blinding"? I know I said "blurring" a lot...
Quote:
Initiative in V&V is how many times you move in a single turn and who moves first in that order. And there's no upper limit to that as long as you have the bonuses (gah, trying to piece this together solely from memory) I think.
Not quite. By-the-book initiative in V&V is a d10 plus your Agility plus any Initiative Bonuses you may have, to determine what phase you first move on. High number goes first, and if you care to spend 2 Power each, you can have additional actions every 15 phases after your initial action. For the first few years of the campaign, we dispensed with the Power cost for additional actions and just took them -- bad guys, too.
After a while it became obvious that people like Hexe and Looney were having all the fun over at the high end of the phase scale, and everyone who was slower had to settle for mop-up. This was solved partly with power-ups -- the whole "Shadowwalker almost became a vampire" debacle was the result of one particularly inept GM's attempt to give her more of a power-up than she really wanted. The final solution came when Joe "Dwimanor" Avins came up with an initiative system surprisingly similar to Champions -- although he had never seen the game. We still roll initiative as before, but now the roll indexes into a table that indicates how many and which of 8 combat phases per turn a character can act on. Doug always gets 4 actions out of 8 possible (I see as I consult the chart); so maybe a SPD of 6
is more appropriate...
In regards to the STR issue...
Okay, I think maybe this is a bad idea. Doug has the STR I initially assigned him because I needed him to be able to do about half a Kill of damage with his bare hands -- to match his damage in V&V. But that gave me the "tossing motorcycles" problem that you noted for Leon -- Doug can lift about 250 or so pounds (say, one occupied hardsuit! ) with both hands, but that's it. I dealt with the overage in lift capacity by ignoring it most of the time, and inventing the "adrenal boost" bit to cover my butt in case I ever wanted to make use of it. What I was really asking is, is there any way we can put a limitation on the difference between Doug's actual lifting weight STR and his damage class STR, along the lines of "Only for damage calculation, except in times of emotional stress"?
Quote:
But I guess what my mindset is right now is - I think I'm trying to "reality check" Doug for anywhere he might go after this that you have reference for gamewise.
And I think that's a great idea. I'm not sure how many other worlds that might be, though, unless I buy up Lords of Order's entire line . (
The Fuzion Guide to Sister Princess, anyone? )
Quote:
They also are a better source for porting over to Hero. Which (in my not so humble opinion) is the absolute best gaming system for simulating - well - anything you want to.
Hmm. Back circa 1988 or so, Jeff "Shockwave" Ventimilia ran a Champs spin-off of Warriors -- think of it as an alternate universe -- whiich he called "U.N.I.T. Force Alpha". At his request I did up Looney in Champs -- this would have been, um, first edition, I think. Wow. Anyway, I know I have that character sheet around somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment. When I do find it, I'll post it for reference. However, as I recall, it was somewhat abusive, and I misunderstood a few of the then-new rules for pools.
Quote:
> I'd like to put your version up on the Fuzion page, if you don't mind -- with proper credit, of course.
By all means, good sir! ^_^ But let's get things finalized first. I suspect there's some tweaking left to do here.
Gee, you think?
Quote:
Would you like for me to post the EX stats for the Knight Sabers? Here or in a seperate thread?
Yes. And yes. Thank you.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Going through both of the previous posts here -
Quote:
Hmm. You have the Stun and Hits reversed; it should be 65/45. Beyond that... I think we have to agree to disagree on the Ref/Dex issue.
Oops! I how did that happen I wonder?
Yeah, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. But it's become clear that you and your group are playing pretty high powered characters in a long running established campaign with a lot of experience points. I think I'll concede the point that the Warrior's are at oh Justice League level? Sounds about right to me. I shudder to think what's going to happen to the poor Knight Sabers with that level of power directed at them ^^;;
Fuzion's "Rule of X" (BGC page 28, if you're curious) is a lot like the campaign limits that I've always played under. Once you reach those limits, your character tends to broaden their skill base rather than get overtly more powerful. If you are in a campaign that goes on long enough, the GM may raise those limits for everyone. But I've rarely been in a campaign that lasted that long. I guess that's what makes me nervous about viewing Doug's character sheet. (Game Master senses tingling! DANGER! ^_^)
Let me assure you that this in no way dilutes my enjoyment of the story. This is just me indulging in my "pedant mode" on the gaming side of things. With that in mind, I'll just offer this character sheet as an alternate, slightly "lower-end" Douglas Sangnoir, and we'll just leave it at that, 'kay? ^_^
Quote:
You don't have to tell us. "Lame" seems to be the operative word for all the sample characters -- they almost seem deliberately built as weak as possible. Any single Warrior -- including Dwimanor, arguably the physically weakest of us -- could take on the entire gang of sample characters in the basic book and not break a sweat.
Indeed. Looking through one of their enemies books and shaking my head at some of the names and concepts - Cosmic Zoom, Captain Floop, Lady Seven (what happened to the other six? ^_^), Warwagon (a guy in a superpowered
wheelchair for crying out loud!) Owww... Brain hurting...
Quote:
Do I actually say "blinding"? I know I said "blurring" a lot...
I don't think so, that was just me.
Quote:
Doug always gets 4 actions out of 8 possible (I see as I consult the chart); so maybe a SPD of 6 is more appropriate...
As 6 is half of 12 in the Hero system. So noted (STAMP) and approved! ^_^
Quote:
In regards to the STR issue...
Okay, I think maybe this is a bad idea. Doug has the STR I initially assigned him because I needed him to be able to do about half a Kill of damage with his bare hands -- to match his damage in V&V. But that gave me the "tossing motorcycles" problem that you noted for Leon -- Doug can lift about 250 or so pounds (say, one occupied hardsuit! with both hands, but that's it. I dealt with the overage in lift capacity by ignoring it most of the time, and inventing the "adrenal boost" bit to cover my butt in case I ever wanted to make use of it. What I was really asking is, is there any way we can put a limitation on the difference between Doug's actual lifting weight STR and his damage class STR, along the lines of "Only for damage calculation, except in times of emotional stress"?
Oh sure! There's two mechanics that cover this. On the extra strength "just when he
really needs it" issue, that's a standard mechanic in Champs (and I think in Fuzion). It's called "pushing" and any character can do it. In a superhero milieu, you can automatically push for extra power points in any power (including STR), but instead of you paying 1 END every for every 10 points of power, it goes to a 1-1 for every point pushed!! And you can't more than double a power this way. So Doug could "push" from 20 to 35 STR in Hero, but he'd spend 17 END rather than just his normal 2 END! In Fuzion terms, END is expended 1-1 because of the point structure. IIRC, I think the push penalty is double END for pushing in Fuzion. He can push his STR from 4 to 7 and pay 10 END rather than his normal 4. He'd also be able to use that STR for damage purposes as well, for when he really needs to haymaker that Boomer
now. Note that this is only for player characters and other important NPC heros. Normal NPCs aren't allowed to do this. And it's not meant to be abused. Characters shouldn't expect to be able to do this just any time they want, only for real sacrifices. But that last is a GM's call, and not a true game mechanic.
The other mechanic that covers what you need is a power called "Hand-to-Hand Attack", commonly abbreviated as (HA). Paraphrasing Hero 5th Edition here - Each die of HA adds to the regular damage from STR. To buy an HA in Hero, you spend 5 points per 1d6, and then apply a mandatory 1/2 limitation,
Hand-to-Hand Attack to derive the final point cost. The limitation signifies that the HA only works if it adds to a character's damage dice based on STR. (in essence, HA is just a limited form of STR). It cannot function on its own, nor does it add to a character's STR in any other way or provide any figured characteristics. It costs END normally (unless specifically built with advantages like 0 END).
In Fuzion terms, 5 points = 1 point anyway, but go ahead and signify the limitation just to be clear. So in his powers, buy 3 points of HA to add to his regular STR damage. You could say that this just reflects his knowledge of how to apply his force in the best possible way, finding the weak spots or whatever. And then just keep in mind that if he needs to, he can "push" his STR, but it'll cost him significant END. Which is as it should be. That means that his normal damage is 7, like you need it to be (and Doug spends 7 END normally for it). But his actual lifting capacity is only at the STR 4 level. If he really needs it, he can push his damage up to 11, but he's going to spend a whopping
15 END for the privilege!!
Note that in lower powered "heroic" rather than "superheroic" settings, Hero requires that characters make an EGO roll to be able to push their power up to 5 extra points (1 PP in Fuzion), with +1 point for every 1 point they make their EGO roll by.
Whether the Knightsabers use the superheroic pushing rules or the regular heroic rules is your call.
Quote:
And I think that's a great idea. I'm not sure how many other worlds that might be, though, unless I buy up Lords of Order's entire line .
I think you mean Guardians of Order, don't you? And yes, I would recommend their entire line. ^_^
Quote:
( The Fuzion Guide to Sister Princess, anyone?
Make it stop, make it STOP!! AAAiiieee!!! ^_^
Ahem
Anyway. I'll post those EX character stats next in separate thread as requested.
-Logan
Man, some of these guys look like they belong in the movie "Mystery Men"... Yikes. ^_^;;
ISTR Doug watching that movie and chuckling a lot. Then thinking "You know, I think I've actually worked with some of these guys..."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make
anything explode.
Quote:
But it's become clear that you and your group are playing pretty high powered characters in a long running established campaign with a lot of experience points.
That we are. I joined the campaign in 1987, and it had already been running a couple years at that point. What is amusing to me is that (to the best of my knowledge) none of the original players are left in the group -- they all faded out and it kept going without them.
Quote:
I think I'll concede the point that the Warrior's are at oh Justice League level?
I think you'd be right on the money, except for the fact that even when we had Jeff/Shockwave in the group, we never had anyone who was at the power level of, say, Superman. Although Shockwave came very close...
Quote:
I shudder to think what's going to happen to the poor Knight Sabers with that level of power directed at them ^^;;
It won't be all of the Warriors, and they'll be merciful.
Quote:
Fuzion's "Rule of X" (BGC page 28, if you're curious) is a lot like the campaign limits that I've always played under. Once you reach those limits, your character tends to broaden their skill base rather than get overtly more powerful. If you are in a campaign that goes on long enough, the GM may raise those limits for everyone. But I've rarely been in a campaign that lasted that long. I guess that's what makes me nervous about viewing Doug's character sheet. (Game Master senses tingling! DANGER! ^_^)
Well, yeah, I mention on the Fuzion page that's Doug's rule of X number is somewhere in the twenties -- that's definitely not player character territory, at least not starting PCs. But then again, Doug's been in play since 1987 -- although there's been a long hiatus in the campaign which is only now ending. (Without that hiatus, gods, I can only imagine how powerful all the Warriors would be... Doug made 11th level in seven fully-active years of playing; add seven or eight more years on top of that, and he might have been 15th or higher...)
Quote:
With that in mind, I'll just offer this character sheet as an alternate, slightly "lower-end" Douglas Sangnoir, and we'll just leave it at that, 'kay? ^_^
Actually, I have long been concerned that my writeup was overpowered in some ways -- although the attributes never struck me as a problem! Now that someone fully familiar with with Fuzion has corrected the worst of my errors, I'd be perfectly happy to post the revised version as the "official" one!
Quote:
Indeed. Looking through one of their enemies books and shaking my head at some of the names and concepts - Cosmic Zoom, Captain Floop, Lady Seven (what happened to the other six? ^_^), Warwagon (a guy in a superpowered wheelchair for crying out loud!) Owww... Brain hurting...
Jeff Dee -- good artist, good idea guy,
bad designer of supertypes. To be fair, though, I suspect Dee's probably embarrassed of some of those early characters, now. I know
I would be...
Oddly enough, bringing this up reminds me of one of the characters who influenced Looney Toons. A published character, although in an early Champions module instead of V&V -- "Bad Medicine for Doctor Drugs". One of the sample player characters was a martial artist type who could only fight while listening to her walkman -- I think they called her Flashdancer. It was really a combination of her and the
Spellsinger books (I'm blanking on the author's name, dammit) that germinated the idea for Looney Toons. And since I'm revealing all these deep, dark secrets, Doug's uniform is based very slightly on that which Doug "Cipher" Ramsey wore
once as a member of the
New Mutants, in an issue published back in the middle 1980s -- the main influence was the idea of the helmet with the antenna coming up on one side, although Cipher's helmet looked more like sports headgear, and the "antenna" may actually have been one of those little boom mikes swivelled up and out of the way of his face.
Quote:
The other mechanic that covers what you need is a power called "Hand-to-Hand Attack", commonly abbreviated as (HA).
I think this is the way I'd want to go, given your descriptions. Because of the damage ceilings I've set, he probably won't ever "push" his STR beyond 7. But you will see him do at least that much in chapter 12...
Quote:
I think you mean Guardians of Order, don't you? And yes, I would recommend their entire line. ^_^
Yes, that's who I meant. And I browsed their entire line at Anime Expo NY... I was
sooo tempted, but out of money at that point.
Quote:
Anyway. I'll post those EX character stats next in separate thread as requested.
Saw'em, thanks!
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Quote:
Man, some of these guys look like they belong in the movie "Mystery Men"... Yikes. ^_^;;
ISTR Doug watching that movie and chuckling a lot. Then thinking "You know, I think I've actually worked with some of these guys..."
YSTR correctly.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Spellsinger and sequels can be blamed on Alan Dean Foster.
Blessed be.
-n
(thinks it's kind of a shame that those books had such mellow playlists.)
===========
===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."
I
thought it might have been Foster, but I couldn't satisfy myself that I was remembering correctly. Thanks.
Quote:
(thinks it's kind of a shame that those books had such mellow playlists.)
Does that opinion include the later one(s?) with Mudge's and Jon-Tom's kids doing rap spellsinging?
-- Bob
(Edited to fix quote markup)
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
I'd forgotten about those, actually.
Blech. Rap.
Blessed be.
-n
===========
===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."
You were probably better off before I reminded you, if I recall the quality level of the one book I read correctly...
Still I gotta wonder -- whatever happened to the Hispanic babe from the first book who took off with the tiger? There's got to be a better story there than the rap-misadventures of three otters and a geek.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Quote:
Still I gotta wonder -- whatever happened to the Hispanic babe from the first book who took off with the tiger? There's got to be a better story there than the rap-misadventures of three otters and a geek.
Rabbit. She took off with the rabbit. The tiger was from the third book, was female, and spoke with a Dixie accent. I, too, would be interested in what happened to them, but I think Foster's tired of the Spellsinger series. He's been writing in his science fiction setting, the Humanx Commonwealth, lately. My personal favorites are his Mad Amos stories, but I'm a sucker for a good Wild West fantasy tale.
Ebony the Black Dragon
aka Draco Draconis Ebenium
known to the Pinnacle Entertainment Group as Aaron F. Johnson
Senior Editor, Living Room Games
www.lrgames.com
Ebony the Black Dragon
http://ebony14.livejournal.com
"Good night, and may the Good Lord take a Viking to you."
>He's been writing in his science fiction setting, the Humanx Commonwealth, lately.
Good. Maybe he'll finally finish that super-plot-arc that he's been building since day one and I can stop gnawing my fingertips.
Blessed be.
-n
===========
===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."
Quote:
Rabbit. She took off with the rabbit. The tiger was from the third book, was female, and spoke with a Dixie accent.
Oops, you're right. Been so long since I read them that they all started running together...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
BTW, Logan, do you have a finished, revised sheet for Doug now? If so, please post it!
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Funny you should mention it, I've been putting the final touches on this.
By the way, I messed up in describing the "pushing" rules in Fuzion. I didn't have any Fuzion rulesbook handy at the time and used the HERO rules and my memory as a guideline. The actual Fuzion version of "pushing" is listed on Page 25 of the main BGC rulebook. In short, the maximum you can "push" your STR is usually 2 points. If you make a successful WILL+Concentration roll, you can increase that. But the END penalties are even more extreme than the version I described - 5 END for every 1 point of STR "pushed". Yikes.
Anyway, here are some Notes:
The Bubblegum Crisis RPG rules are slightly different from standard Fuzion rules. Some of this is covered in BGC: Before and After, but I thought a few key differnces in the stats were worth mentioning.
The basic BGC rules don't mention the SPD stat or how to use it. It's calculated as REF/2. I've included it in both Doug's character sheet and calculated it for the Knightsaber character sheets that I posted in the other thread. Doug gets 6 actions per turn. Most everyone else who is a major character or boomer in BCG only gets 3 - 4.
BGC uses LUCK, where in Standard Fuzion, it's an optional Stat.
Energy Defense is an optional stat in BGC. In standard Fuzion, it's included as a regular derived stat. Calculated the same as SD.
The Leap statistic calculated from the MOVE stat is based on long jump or horizontal distance. Straight up would be half of that.
I've included all of these stats as part of the character sheet. They can be used, or not, as needed.
All Skills are listed alphabetically with the exception of Languages, which are grouped together for easy reference.
I added one more appropriate Complication - Overconfidence.
I somehow missed the Renown listed in Doug's original sheet. I've added it here.
I slightly miscalculated the cost of the Magesight previously. It's corrected here.
I added the HA power under "Hard Punches". If that should be called something different, let me know.
I changed the terminology in the description of the Polykev armor. In BGC, as of BGC Before and After, human scale armor is listed in terms of KD and EKD (Killing Defense and Energy Killing Defense) rather than PD and ED. Further, Kills aren't used, instead they are translated to standard KD defense. 1 Kill = 50 KD/EKD. I included both sets of terms for completeness sake.
Recalculated all costs: note that -
CP = Character points - The points paid for the basic characteristics.
OP = Option Points - The points paid for Skills, talents and Perks
PP = Power Points - The points paid for Doug's unique Metatalents and equipment.
(Note also that Power Points are not available to normal BGC characters. Everything and everyone is either a normal human with unique equipment, or a boomer.)
So here it is - the semi-official Fuzion character sheet for Doug!
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LOONEY TOONS / DOUGLAS SANGNOIR
INT......10.....LUCK 22
WILL....9.......RES 27
PRE......9
TECH....6
REF......12.....SPD 6
DEX......12
CON......8......SD 16.......ED 16.......END 80
STR......4.......REC 12
BODY....11.....STUN 65...HITS 45
MOVE.....9.....RUN 18.....SPRINT 27
...................SWIM 9.....LEAP 9
COST....COMPLICATIONS....(BASE: 50)
5..........Stubborn
15........Code of Honor
10........Overconfident
15........Protective of Innocents
15........In Love with Shadowwalker
COST....SKILLS, TALENTS & PERKS
3.........*Perception: +5
2.........*Concentration: +4
E.........*Persuasion: +2
4.........*Education: +6
E.........*Local Expert: +2
E.........*Teacher: +2
4.........*Hand-to-Hand: +6
4.........*Melee Evade: +6
4.........*Athletics: +6
6.........Ranged Evade: +6
3.........Melee Weapons: +3
8.........Acrobatics: +8
9.........Computers: +9
4.........Detective: +4
2.........Disguise: +2
5.........Driving: (Motorcycles) +5
6.........Expert: International Law & Enforcement: +6
3.........Expert: UN: +3
10........Expert: American/British Pop Music: +10
5.........Expert: Movies & TV: +5
6.........Electronic Warfare: +6
4.........Espionage: +4
3.........Firearms: +3
6.........English: +6 (Mimic any Accent)
3.........French: +3
5.........Japanese: +5
5.........Valdemaran: +5
4.........Gambling: +4
10........Hacking: +10
4.........Leadership: +4
4.........Mechanics: +4
3.........Pilot: +3
3.........Research: +3
5.........Stealth: +5
6.........Electrical Engineering: +6
1.........Handsome
9.........Membership: Warriors 9
9.........License Warrior: 9
9.........Renown: 9
3.........Martial Arts
15........Combat Sense: 5
COST....POWERS
Improbability Field:
8.........Acts as +10 DEX, Activation 12-, for defensive
...........rolls only. Special Effect: Random strange things
...........alter or divert the attack.
Mage Sight:
4.........Discriminatory sense: detect meta-human;
..........Discriminatory Detect Magic with Range
Song Power:
30........Power Framework: 22 pt VPP w/11 pt control
...........cost (-1 pt Burnout (8- on 3d6), -2 pt attached
...........focus, -2 Requires simple skill roll (8 +1 pt per VPP),
...........+1 pt wide SFX))
Polykev armor:
7.........50 KD/EKD (1 Kill KD/EKD). Armor radiates damage
...........away as heat, 1 round per D6 intercepted, giving
...........+(dice left to radiate) to any heat- or IR-based
...........perception used against him.
Hard Punches:
3.........HA +3d6; Hand-to-Hand Attack (Total w/STR: 7d6)
CP: 90 / OP: 199 / PP: 52
Here's something else to consider for Doug's character sheet.
BGC treats Martial Arts as a Talent and only gives you a couple of extra manuevers you can use based on it. Standard Fuzion has 15 Individual Manuevers that cost 2 Option points apiece and offer greater variety in actions. If you like, you can use these manuevers instead of the BGC Martial Arts talent. Here's a thumbnail list of the manuevers and what they do.
Basic Strike: Add 1d6 to your normal STR damage, +2 to DEX
Breakfall: Take 1/2 Normal Falling Damage, regain feet as a Free Action
Defensive Strike: Strike. Adds +1 to REF, +3 to DEX
Ki Strike: Ranged HTH attack at -2 REF. (It's a Ryu fireball. Nobody in DWII, including Doug, is going to be using this one)
Killing Strike: Does Killing Damage at -2d6 to STR, -2 REF
Martial Arts Weapons: Trained in Martial Arts weapons, (tonfa, nunchaku, etc.)
Martial Block: Blocks all but bladed weapons, +2 to REF and DEX
Martial Disarm: Disarm, with a +2 to STR for the manuever
Martial Dodge: Adds +5 to DEX for dodging purposes that Phase.
Martial Escape: Adds +3 STR for escape purposes
Martial Grab: Adds +2 to STR for purposes of the Grab
Martial Throw: (As Martial throw in BGC PG 41, no changes)
Nerve Strike: Does 2d6 Damage, no Stun Defense; -2 REF
Offensive Strike: Adds +2d6 STR Damage, at -2 REF, +1 DEX
Sacrifice Throw: Martial Throw, with +2 to REF, Target and Attacker both Knocked Prone
As you can see, these manuevers give the potential for greater flexibility and power. The idea is to buy the manuevers that best reflect the martial art the character uses. This does get more expensive by far than using the BGC version, though.
I think that if you were going to give Doug these manuevers, it would be fair to retcon the Knight Sabers character sheets and add some for them as well. Or we can figure out what Doug uses for martial arts manuevers, but assume for balance in BGC that he uses BGC Martial Artist talent only.
What do you think?