Drunkard's Walk Forums - Doug's Musical Ability, in GURPS

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I think I came up with a non-insane-cost version of Doug's power. It's hinky, and would require full GM approval, but I think this works it out.
Ultra Power (Supers, pg 30)
(Always On [effects are dangerous; Mitigator {Non-Resonating Music}], Cosmic: No Die Roll Required, Extended Duration [x10], Magical, Nuisance Effect [Unpredictable], Reduced Fatigue Cost [14; not sure what Doug's FP total would be], Reduced Time [13], Reliable +10, Trigger [Common, Resonating Song]).
With Multiplicitive Modifiers, it comes out to 303 points. Not bad for a power that lets you do pretty much anything. There's also room for plenty more limitations on that sucker.

Look more closely at the write-up. Ultra Power merely provides rules for pulling power stunts with your other powers, it grants no powers by itself. For example, if you've got super speed, you can use Ultra Power to try to disarm fifty bombs in one second even if a strict reading of the power indicates that such a task would be impossible.
The easiest way to model Doug's primary power is with Modular Abilities (cosmic power), although the sheer cost of it (even with modifiers) would be absurd. Also, the huge number of modifiers necessary would make Modular Abilities an awkward fit.
A cheaper way to model Doug's primary power is through repeated applications of the Alternate Form power. He can buy his most expensive power package at 90 percent of full price plus 3 points for the underlying Alternate Form (15 base minus 80% in modifiers: -10% magic, -40% once/day, -30% accessibility: only while power song is playing), and then buy additional Alternate Forms for a mere 3 points each. Given how cheap buying a new power song is using this method, Doug can easily crape together sufficient xp during adventures to pay the 3 points to manifest a new set of powers.
Additionally, if Doug does model his powers as Alternate Forms, he actually can use Ultra Power to dynamically pump them up. Perhaps that is the rule based explanation for what happens when he taps into a major external mana source to pump up the effects of an existing song (such as when he turned the shotgun from White Wedding into a pair of machineguns in the Bubblegum Crisis step).
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"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV

Quote:Shepherd wrote:

Look more closely at the write-up. Ultra Power merely provides rules for pulling power stunts with your other powers, it grants no powers by itself. For example, if you've got super speed, you can use Ultra Power to try to disarm fifty bombs in one second even if a strict reading of the power indicates that such a task would be impossible.

Not quite. You must have a power talent, but not any abilities.

[i Wrote:Supers[/i], pg 112]To do this, a hero must have a power talent, and must have taken the advantage Ultrapower (see p. 30). Then the player describes the feat he wants to accomplish

He doesn't have to have any powers, just "Musical Power Talent." And, if you check the Latent Powers section on the next page, it is a bit more clear:

[i Wrote:Supers[/i], pg 113]Since the system for one-use powers relies solely on Will and Talent, and not on any abilities of a power, it’s also suitable for characters with latent powers (Talent but no abilities) who are only
capable of the occasional amazing feat of power because their full potency has not yet developed!

I mean, that sounds almost exactly like what Doug does.
ETA: For some reason the quoting system isn't working correctly for me . . ..

I'll let you guys thrash this out. One reason I haven't gotten back to the IST2 project is that I still haven't delved deeply enough and long enough into 4E to grok it the way I did 3rd, and 3rd keeps tainting my efforts to think 4E.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Quote:Shepherd wrote:

A cheaper way to model Doug's primary power is through repeated applications of the Alternate Form power. He can buy his most expensive power package at 90 percent of full price plus 3 points for the underlying Alternate Form (15 base minus 80% in modifiers: -10% magic, -40% once/day, -30% accessibility: only while power song is playing), and then buy additional Alternate Forms for a mere 3 points each. Given how cheap buying a new power song is using this method, Doug can easily crape together sufficient xp during adventures to pay the 3 points to manifest a new set of powers.

Actually, that wouldn't directly work either. It would cost significantly more as each one would have to have 5 levels of reduced time (to be instant; welcome to +100%). Also, it's not really an accessibility, it's more of a trigger. So, with MM, using Trigger instead of Accessibility, it comes out to 9 points (or 20 with Additive Modifiers). But, it doesn't give us the ability to reflect what happens to Doug when he hears a piece of music the first time, and it does something unexpected. Well, technically, the trigger would be Uncommon (not quite rare), as each form is tied to a specific song.
However, the best way to do the Alternate Forms idea would be to buy his most powerful form, then have a modular ability that let him "build" each alternate form, so he's only paying for one, huge alternate form, and, when he does something like sit around listening to songs, trying to find one, he doesn't have to throw countless points away as he gets bizarre reactions from his powers.
But, Ultra Power lets him get away with doing all of it. And, depending on the GM's mood, Ultra Power lets him pull stuff off that any other power wouldn't. Ultra Power is, really, a Magic-Wand of Plot Device. Plus, Ultra Power lets him do things that the GM will allow, but can't be easily built. It really is a narrative device
Take Bar Room Blitz as an example: It makes everyone in the AoE fight. Well, that would be Mind Control, with AoE; even at best, taking +10 reliable and +4 from his power talent and presuming Doug has a Will of 20. It would take another 18 points to buy "Rule of 34" for that ability--provided that perk is available to him. Plus, he's at a -1 for each person after the first he tries to affect. And if someone has resistance or immunity to mind control . . .. Oh, and keep in mind, you can't buy Cosmic: NDRR for Mind Control. So, if he's trying to affect 20 people, that would be a roll of 14 . . . a number that's resistable.
For Ultra Power, that would be a medium-intensity, Awesome Feat. So, Doug would make a Will Roll at -4. Once again, assuming my build with +10 reliable and him having a Power Talent of +4 a Will of 20 (I don't know what Doug's Will is, but it's got to be high) and Cosmic: No Die Roll Required, he accomplishes the feat--everyone in the situation begins fighting (Cosmic: NDRR means he'll automatically succeed as long as his target number is not below 3) until the music ends. Now, all he has to worry about are people with Cosmic resistances and immunities. You know, those people who also break the rules.
The only place it really fails is in the second-to-last paragraph:

[i Wrote:Supers[/i] pg 113]Finally, the GM must agree that the intended effect is relevant to the problem that confronts him.

Being as Doug's abilities are "set" based on the music, it's possible to violate this rule. A little bit more Cosmic would allow you to bypass that. As it is a narrative device, that's easy enough to elbow in.

Mark Skarr Wrote:
Quote:Shepherd wrote:

Look more closely at the write-up. Ultra Power merely provides rules for pulling power stunts with your other powers, it grants no powers by itself. For example, if you've got super speed, you can use Ultra Power to try to disarm fifty bombs in one second even if a strict reading of the power indicates that such a task would be impossible.
Not quite. You must have a power talent, but not any abilities.

Quote:Supers, pg 112 wrote:
To do this, a hero must have a power talent, and must have taken the advantage Ultrapower (see p. 30). Then the player describes the feat he wants to accomplish
He doesn't have to have any powers, just "Musical Power Talent." And, if you check the Latent Powers section on the next page, it is a bit more clear:

Quote:Supers, pg 113 wrote:
Since the system for one-use powers relies solely on Will and Talent, and not on any abilities of a power, it’s also suitable for characters with latent powers (Talent but no abilities) who are only capable of the occasional amazing feat of power because their full potency has not yet developed!
I mean, that sounds almost exactly like what Doug does.

Actually, that doesn't sound like what Doug does. The operative term is "the occasional amazing feat of power." Doug's power songs are not an occasional thing. He uses them during practically every battle, and sometimes even uses them outside of battle. Ultra Power is meant to simulate performing unique extraordinary tasks that are thematically related to things that you can already do, not as a way to perform the same set of tricks over and over.
The write-up for Ultra Power specifically states: This new advantage is based on Gadgeteer. The intent is to let characters get creative with their abilities without having to sink an absurd number of character points into covering every single thing which you may possibly want your character to do. Your modifications are like trying to make a gadgetmaster who cannot possibly fail to produce whatever gadget he desires.
On the other hand, I do believe that a modified version of Ultra Power could make a good method for having Doug learn new power songs. While the advantage usually only gives you the option to spend character points on an ability that permanently replicates the attempted oneshot feat when you score a critical success, you could create a 50% Cosmic enhancement that lets Doug do so every time he successfully attempts to learn a new power song.
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"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV

Mark Skarr Wrote:
Quote:Shepherd wrote:

A cheaper way to model Doug's primary power is through repeated applications of the Alternate Form power. He can buy his most expensive power package at 90 percent of full price plus 3 points for the underlying Alternate Form (15 base minus 80% in modifiers: -10% magic, -40% once/day, -30% accessibility: only while power song is playing), and then buy additional Alternate Forms for a mere 3 points each. Given how cheap buying a new power song is using this method, Doug can easily crape together sufficient xp during adventures to pay the 3 points to manifest a new set of powers.
Actually, that wouldn't directly work either. It would cost significantly more as each one would have to have 5 levels of reduced time (to be instant; welcome to +100%). Also, it's not really an accessibility, it's more of a trigger. So, with MM, using Trigger instead of Accessibility, it comes out to 9 points (or 20 with Additive Modifiers). But, it doesn't give us the ability to reflect what happens to Doug when he hears a piece of music the first time, and it does something unexpected. Well, technically, the trigger would be Uncommon (not quite rare), as each form is tied to a specific song.
However, the best way to do the Alternate Forms idea would be to buy his most powerful form, then have a modular ability that let him "build" each alternate form, so he's only paying for one, huge alternate form, and, when he does something like sit around listening to songs, trying to find one, he doesn't have to throw countless points away as he gets bizarre reactions from his powers.
But, Ultra Power lets him get away with doing all of it. And, depending on the GM's mood, Ultra Power lets him pull stuff off that any other power wouldn't. Ultra Power is, really, a Magic-Wand of Plot Device. Plus, Ultra Power lets him do things that the GM will allow, but can't be easily built. It really is a narrative device

Quote:

True, I did forget the +100% Reduced Time enhancement and used an Accessibility limitation instead of Trigger. Given the complexity of the power, you could still easily get it down to the maximum -80% discount, I just didn't bother thinking up additional limitations. There should probably be an Accessibility limitation of 'not while other music can be heard'. It should also have Costs Fatigue since Doug has indicated that using his power songs is magically tiring. He should probably also have a variant of the Uncontrolled limitation to indicate that being exposed to the appropriate Trigger automatically activates a power song.
Using Modular Abilities (cosmic power) to purchase the alternate Alternate Forms is an interesting idea, although it feels like cheating. As a general rule, if it feels like cheating, it probably is cheating. After all, every time Doug learns a new power song, he theoretically becomes more powerful because he now has new character options. Using your method, he simply adds his newest power song to his list of known songs without spending a single point. There is literally no difference in point cost between a Doug with a dozen power songs and a Doug with a thousand power songs.
By combining a primary Alternate Form (his most expensive one) with a variant of Ultra Power used to learn new songs (see my previous post) and a bunch of 3 point alternate Alternate Forms, each new power song costs character points which add to his point total in a way that demonstrates that he really is becoming stronger as a character. Perhaps his Ultra Power has a unique limitation requiring him to spend character points on any power song which he successfully learns with Ultra Power. This could explain why he doesn't simply sit around all day listening to music and trying to stockpile a never ending list of power sets, he wants to be able to use his xp for other purposes.
Also, to use your own argument for Ultra Power as an argument against the way you're trying to use it, it truly is "a Magic-Wand of Plot Device." If an effect is readily reproducable on a daily basis, it no longer counts as a plot device.
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"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV

Quote:Shepherd wrote:

Using Modular Abilities (cosmic power) to purchase the alternate Alternate Forms is an interesting idea, although it feels like cheating. As a general rule, if it feels like cheating, it probably is cheating. After all, every time Doug learns a new power song, he theoretically becomes more powerful because he now has new character options. Using your method, he simply adds his newest power song to his list of known songs without spending a single point. There is literally no difference in point cost between a Doug with a dozen power songs and a Doug with a thousand power songs.
By combining a primary Alternate Form (his most expensive one) with a variant of Ultra Power used to learn new songs (see my previous post) and a bunch of 3 point alternate Alternate Forms, each new power song costs character points which add to his point total in a way that demonstrates that he really is becoming stronger as a character. Perhaps his Ultra Power has a unique limitation requiring him to spend character points on any power song which he successfully learns with Ultra Power. This could explain why he doesn't simply sit around all day listening to music and trying to stockpile a never ending list of power sets, he wants to be able to use his xp for other purposes.

However, if you check Chapter 6 of Drunkard's Walk V, at one point Doug does sit down trying to find a song to do something specific.

Drunkards Walk V; Ch6 Wrote:In fact, it took almost two hours, as best as Chris could determine. It also took nearly three dozen songs, seven light shows, two fireworks displays, a brief ankle-deep flood of faintly green fish-smelling seawater, one accidentally-summoned air elemental, and a rather substantial explosion that had startled Chris into manifesting his armor, sent Doug tumbling backwards into a wall, and left a short-lived soot on everything in sight.

I'm sure that's not unique, just a specific example. Also, he has to check songs looking for his gate song; that may add hundreds of songs to his arsenal. And, I disagree, if it feels like cheating, it may not be. Playing a MasterMind in CoH feels like cheating, but, obviously, it isn't (You, minion, go, fetch me some XP). I just shot a PM off to Kromm to get his stand on the issue--both if it's legal and to see if he thinks it's cheating. We've used a similar build to that for my Summoners in the past (basically, they have a modular ability that only allows them to build Allies with Summonable and/or Patrons with Highly Accessible). However, the GM did make it where the summoner had to both find the summon and purchase them as a Perk, which prevented it from getting too out of hand. The The Modular Ability gets us around needing to use Ultra Power for the finding of songs, as, at that point, it would just be GM approval (and gleefully deciding on what else the song does).
In general, I do agree that, basically, Ultra Power, isn't the right way to go. And, I'm not sure about buying the individual alternate forms. I think, using alternate forms for something like that is square-pegging a round-hole; however, I'm more fond of it than just a single, mindnumbingly huge Cosmic Modular Ability. I mean, you think the universe is big, that's just peanuts compared to Doug's Cosmic Modular Ability.

That was fast. Kromm has responded and given us an even better way of doing it: Morph.
This is why I buy video games for Kromm: he's awesome. (I just wish I had the time to play them with him, right now.)

Quote:Kromm wrote:

Mark Skarr Wrote:Is it against the rules to use a Modular Ability to build Alternate Forms?
Not really. It's rarely worth the points, but you can do it. At the cheapest, you're looking at a version priced like Chip Slots: 5 points base + 3 points per point of abilities. Even if the only thing available is 15-point baseline Alternate Form, that's 5 + 3×15 = 50 points for one slot. Add on the necessary Physical, +100% and Trait-Limited, Alternate Forms Only, -30%, and you're at 85 points. At the most expensive . . . well, that's Cosmic Power (15 points; Physical, +100%; Trait-Limited, Alternate Forms Only, -30%) [255]. It's difficult to see how that's less fair than Morph [100]. The first has way more limits on acquiring forms (they'd need to be available in a DNA library or something), while the second is 2.5 times as costly and not a lot more useful.
Granted, either is a better deal than six or 17 specific Alternate Forms, but so is Morph, and that's 100% within the letter and spirit of the rules. In fact, Morph seems way better to me. I can't imagine why somebody would want Modular Abilities with Alternate Form, which means taking time to shift slots/points in the MA and then time to shapeshift, when Morph just lets you get right to the shifting.

Mark Skarr Wrote:Do you, Kromm, consider it "cheating" or otherwise "bad form?"
Cheating? Not technically, since it seems to hose the player. Bad form? Well, if a GM didn't point out the above math to the player, that would be bad form.
I think that what sometimes has people wondering about this issue is leaving out Physical, +100%. Here, you really need that modifier to cover all the traits that any race you might encounter might have. Without it, about all you can do is add skills and mental advantages, which with Alternate Form means taking on "races" that are human bodies with different brains inside.

ETA:
Morph (Unlimited +50%, Improvised Forms +100%, Cannot Memorize Forms (must always have song) -50%, Mass Conservation -20%, Retains Shape -20%, [Not so sure about those last two], Magical -10%, Trigger (Resonnating Song; Common) -20%; Cosmic +50%; Always On (Effects are dangerous; Mitigator: non-resonnating song) -16%; Reduced Time 5 +100%) [264]
ETA2: Or [80] if you're using Multiplicative Modifier like I do.

Mark Skarr Wrote:ETA:
Morph (Unlimited +50%, Improvised Forms +100%, Cannot Memorize Forms (must always have song) -50%, Mass Conservation -20%, Retains Shape -20%, [Not so sure about those last two], Magical -10%, Trigger (Resonnating Song; Common) -20%; Cosmic +50%; Always On (Effects are dangerous; Mitigator: non-resonnating song) -16%; Reduced Time 5 +100%) [264]
ETA2: Or [80] if you're using Multiplicative Modifier like I do.

Looks interesting. You're right that Mass Conservation and Retains Shape may not necessarily be proper for inclusion, as some of Doug's forms may break those limitations (the one that turns him into a giant living balloon definitely does).
I'm also not certain of the appropriateness of the Cannot Memorize Forms limitation. A character with Morph can normally retain a number of forms equal to their IQ. Cannot Memorize Forms limits them to a single form at a time. Changing into a new form requires them to forget how to assume their previously known form. Doug's list of power songs is well above his IQ, so I'd say that he has an advantage there rather than a disadvantage (perhaps another Cosmic enhancement?).
Other modifications that I'd suggest:
Tweak Trigger into a new limitation called Involuntary Trigger -25% to indicate that exposure to a power song automatically changes Doug. As written, I believe that being exposed to a Trigger merely allows you to activate an ability rather than forcing you to use it.
You're also forgetting that each individual 'racial' template can only be used once per day. I'd probably peg that at -10%.
Since Doug has indicated that using power songs can be tiring, two levels of Costs Fatigue would probably be appropriate (two fatigue for the first minute of use, one fatigue for each additional minute. Even his longest songs can be played without causing him to drop from low fatigue).
The fact that learning new templates likely requires Doug to succeed on an Ultra Power check would also probably count as a limitation (given how often the experimentation process seems to misfire, I'd consider it to be a moderate limitation).
After that, you simply have to determine the cost of Doug's most expensive 'template' and add it to the base cost of Morph for the final cost. This is still likely to be lower than the cost of buying his power as Modular Abilities, as even a -80% price reduction means paying twice the cost of the most expensive power template.
----------------------------------------------------

"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV

Shepherd Wrote:Looks interesting. You're right that Mass Conservation and Retains Shape may not necessarily be proper for inclusion, as some of Doug's forms may break those limitations (the one that turns him into a giant living balloon definitely does).

I admit I’m not 100% sure of all his song powers, but yes. That’s why I commented that it may not be necessary.

Shepherd Wrote:I'm also not certain of the appropriateness of the Cannot Memorize Forms limitation. A character with Morph can normally retain a number of forms equal to their IQ. Cannot Memorize Forms limits them to a single form at a time. Changing into a new form requires them to forget how to assume their previously known form. Doug's list of power songs is well above his IQ, so I'd say that he has an advantage there rather than a disadvantage (perhaps another Cosmic enhancement?).

Yes, but it’s not memorizing the forms that Doug’s doing, he’s keeping the triggers handy. Each song triggers a specific change, not Doug pulling out a memorized form.
ETA: Memorizing Forms is only relevant if you're capable of changing automatically. Doug can't. He has to have his trigger, so he doesn't memorize any forms. He can't, willingly, change forms without his songs, so he doesn't need to be able to memorize any forms.

On the other hand . . . he may also get by with a -30% accessibility for “Only while trigger song is playing.” But, that may be as low as -10%, as it’s within his control.

Shepherd Wrote:Other modifications that I'd suggest:
Tweak Trigger into a new limitation called Involuntary Trigger -25% to indicate that exposure to a power song automatically changes Doug. As written, I believe that being exposed to a Trigger merely allows you to activate an ability rather than forcing you to use it.

I’m okay with that. That removes the need for “Always On” with a mitigator, though we still need something (probably a Nuisance Effect) to prevent the change when other music is playing.

Shepherd Wrote:You're also forgetting that each individual 'racial' template can only be used once per day. I'd probably peg that at -10%.

I’d only peg it at -5% (a nuisance effect), since he’s got so many to choose from. But, I’m not going to be a stickler over 5%.

Shepherd Wrote:Since Doug has indicated that using power songs can be tiring, two levels of Costs Fatigue would probably be appropriate (two fatigue for the first minute of use, one fatigue for each additional minute. Even his longest songs can be played without causing him to drop from low fatigue).

No argument here. Plus Doug’s probably got a fair bit of Energy Reserve.

Shepherd Wrote:The fact that learning new templates likely requires Doug to succeed on an Ultra Power check would also probably count as a limitation (given how often the experimentation process seems to misfire, I'd consider it to be a moderate limitation).

This, I disagree with. Doug doesn’t need to make an Ultra Power check. Using Morph totally negates the need for it. And DW shows that he really doesn’t have to do anything special other than listen to music . . . and not be stupid about it.

Shepherd Wrote:After that, you simply have to determine the cost of Doug's most expensive 'template' and add it to the base cost of Morph for the final cost. This is still likely to be lower than the cost of buying his power as Modular Abilities, as even a -80% price reduction means paying twice the cost of the most expensive power template.

The points for the “template” do not get reduced. They’re paid for fully. It’s the Morph Advantage that gets the reduction. But yes, I think we’ve found a way to do Doug on a reasonable* point cost.

Good work, team.

*For certain values of reasonable, anyway.

Quote:Looks interesting. You're right that Mass Conservation and Retains Shape may not necessarily be proper for inclusion, as some of Doug's forms may break those limitations (the one that turns him into a giant living balloon definitely does).

As does "Eye of the Tiger", "Larger than Life" byt the Backstreet Boys, and many of his other "physical transformation" songs.

Quote:Since Doug has indicated that using power songs can be tiring, two levels of Costs Fatigue would probably be appropriate (two fatigue for the first minute of use, one fatigue for each additional minute. Even his longest songs can be played without causing him to drop from low fatigue).

It is, but not on that scale. To use the V&V terms and units: Doug (currently) has 100 power points (compared to 40 for an average human); a basic energy blast costs 2 PP, his usual lightning attack costs 3 PP, things like flight and invisibility usually cost 1 PP per hour, and it's only really big effects that cost him more than 5 PP at a shot. One level of Costs Fatigue would be overstating the case for most effects, and two is overkill. If you must, one level is closer to the original than two would be.

Quote:After that, you simply have to determine the cost of Doug's most expensive 'template' and add it to the base cost of Morph for the final cost.

, ah, that's the rub. You never know what a new song will let him do, and that might change your yardstick. But some hard limits built into V&V might help. His maximum Growth limit is 7 times his height (the balloon incident was exempted from this by the GM because he was effectively paralyzed during it and couldn't use it). Resurrection is fairly expensive (as a discrete power/advantage) IIRC, and might make for a good benchmark.

Quote:On the other hand . . . he may also get by with a -30% accessibility for “Only while trigger song is playing.” But, that may be as low as -10%, as it’s within his control.

That seems okay to me.

Quote:And DW shows that he really doesn’t have to do anything special other than listen to music . . . and not be stupid about it.

So... IQ roll at -5 required?

Quote:*For certain values of reasonable, anyway.

Hexe will tell you that Doug is never reasonable.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Does this power build allow Doug to grant powers to others? There's more than one song in his jukebox that does just that...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

I think that would be a trait of the "form" in question, but I don't know if the classic "Usable on Others" would be the right way to quantify it.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Bob Schroeck Wrote:, ah, that's the rub. You never know what a new song will let him do, and that might change your yardstick. But some hard limits built into V&V might help. His maximum Growth limit is 7 times his height (the balloon incident was exempted from this by the GM because he was effectively paralyzed during it and couldn't use it). Resurrection is fairly expensive (as a discrete power/advantage) IIRC, and might make for a good benchmark.

Heh, 7x his height is not even going to register compared to some of the other things he can do, so that’s not a good metric.
Resurrection however, that’s scary expensive. The base example out of GURPS Powers (pg 151) is 229 points per level of affliction. How good is Doug at it? Does it “always” work on normal people (so, technically, he’d need 7 levels to give a normal person a +6 to their single HT 10 roll to resurrect for 1,603 points), or is it hit or miss (50% chance for a normal person so 1 level would be enough).
Plus other changes like, can he do it at range. Does he have to touch them. Does it not work on special people, other than those who the MWPD have deemed unresurrectable. But, there’s a reasonable metric. Call Doug’s “template” 1,500 points. Sure, he’s expensive, but that really isn’t that bad. And, if you use Multiplicative Modifiers, like I do in my Supers games, resurrection only comes out to 83 points (10 levels is 823). So, giving Doug a template cost of 1,000 points works and gives him some wiggle room.
And, with MM, it only takes 982 points for the first stripe of something I had in mind for Songbird and The Loon. Mwa-ha, ha ha ha.

robkelk Wrote:Does this power build allow Doug to grant powers to others? There's more than one song in his jukebox that does just that...

Bob Schroeck Wrote:I think that would be a trait of the "form" in question, but I don't know if the classic "Usable on Others" would be the right way to quantify it.

Bob is spot on. The form could either have Affects Others, some Area Effect and what not, or it could have an Affliction to temporarily grant the power to someone.
So, Morph, with about 1,000 points . . . I think we might be able to make Doug on about 2k points with Multiplicative Modifiers. Which, is expensive, but not too terribly out there. My IST supers are sitting at about 800-850 points right now.

So, Bob, we've got another little connumdrum.
Combat Hyping.
Is that just a high Basic Speed (I'm pegging Doug at about a 12.0 BS) with Combat Reflexes, or would you call it Enhanced Time Sense (see GURPS Characters, pg 52, or I can PM the information to you). ETS is The Flash level fast.
In Doug's case, I'm figuring that it's probably a high BS, Combat Reflexes and maybe some Altered Time Rate. But, I'm asking because I'm not sure. (But, I'm pretty sure Doug would still have a Basic Speed around 12.0 or something as that would give him an unaugmented Dodge of 15).

IIRC Bob has mentioned before that yes, its basicly a high base speed / combat reflexes as well as a way of representing the difference in time between V&V combat rounds vs non combat rounds.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

Star has the right of it. It's a textual special effect for being really fast in combat. He's not the fastest by any measure -- most of the women in the Warriors are far faster than he -- but he's much, much faster than a normal.

Back to the resurrection question, it occurs to me that it's again a matter of how we approach it. Even in the original campaign it's a theurgic effect -- he doesn't resurrect, he contacts some supernatural entity who can and basically whines and begs and makes a deal until they do the raising. So using it as a benchmark is probably wrong; it probably is closer in cost to casting a resurrection spell. (As in, magery + prereqs + cost of the spell itself.)
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Mark Skarr Wrote:Yes, but it’s not memorizing the forms that Doug’s doing, he’s keeping the triggers handy. Each song triggers a specific change, not Doug pulling out a memorized form.
ETA: Memorizing Forms is only relevant if you're capable of changing automatically. Doug can't. He has to have his trigger, so he doesn't memorize any forms. He can't, willingly, change forms without his songs, so he doesn't need to be able to memorize any forms.

The problem is that the Cannot Memorize Forms limitation is designed around a Morph that requires you to see or touch a living being in order to change into it. If Photocopier-Guy wants Superman's powers, he must interact with Superman (and not just a picture of him). If he then wants Martian Manhunter's powers, he must interact with Martian Manhunter. If he then decides that he liked having Superman's powers more, he has to go back and interact with Superman again. This is why it is a -50% limitation. Without that limitation, Photocopier-Guy (who has an IQ of 14) could manifest the powers of Superman, Martian Manhunter, and a dozen of their Justice League buddies at will.
Doug's powers are significantly more awesome than those of Photocopier-Guy, as Doug knows hundreds of power templates. Doug is not operating under a limitation, much less a -50% limitation; his power has (at least) one major enhancement. Since the Cosmic enhancement lets you break the rules in specific ways, a +50% to the power cost could give Doug an unlimited number of possible forms in his power catalog. Since listening to songs (which can be accomplished with an iPod) is much easier that seeing/touching specific beings, that would probably count as a seperate +20% enhancement.

Quote:I’m okay with that. That removes the need for “Always On” with a mitigator, though we still need something (probably a Nuisance Effect) to prevent the change when other music is playing.

That would be an Accessibility limitation.

Quote:This, I disagree with. Doug doesn’t need to make an Ultra Power check. Using Morph totally negates the need for it. And DW shows that he really doesn’t have to do anything special other than listen to music . . . and not be stupid about it.

While he may not need a power check to use a song, Doug almost certainly has Ultra Power anyway. It easily explains the times he pushes a particular song past its regular limits (ie. his use of White Wedding during the Bubblegum Crisis step). Ultra Power is also useful for acts of superheroics that don't involve his music powers. Since he has the advantage anyway, it also makes a good mechanism for forcing a new power song to manifest during combat.

Quote:The points for the “template” do not get reduced. They’re paid for fully. It’s the Morph Advantage that gets the reduction.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about applying a cost reduction to the Morph "template". I was comparing the cost of Morph + Template to the cost of Modular Abilities (cosmic power). Since that advantage is worth ten points per level and the biggest discount you can get on an advantage is -80%, the minimum cost of Modular Abilities (cosmic power) winds up as twice the cost of Doug's most expensive template. Unless the cost of Morph winds up higher than Doug's most expensive template (highly unlikely), Morph is the cheaper way to go.
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"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV

Bob Schroeck Wrote:
Quote:Since Doug has indicated that using power songs can be tiring, two levels of Costs Fatigue would probably be appropriate (two fatigue for the first minute of use, one fatigue for each additional minute. Even his longest songs can be played without causing him to drop from low fatigue).
It is, but not on that scale. To use the V&V terms and units: Doug (currently) has 100 power points (compared to 40 for an average human); a basic energy blast costs 2 PP, his usual lightning attack costs 3 PP, things like flight and invisibility usually cost 1 PP per hour, and it's only really big effects that cost him more than 5 PP at a shot. One level of Costs Fatigue would be overstating the case for most effects, and two is overkill. If you must, one level is closer to the original than two would be.

Since a GURPS character starts with fatigue points equal to their Health Score (normally between 10 and 20) and don't suffer any problems until they're below 1/3 total fatigue, requiring Doug to spend 2 fatigue to activate a power song isn't too unreasonable. If you assume that Doug has an HT of 16 to 20 (reasonable for someone in amazingly good physical shape), then he suffers no ill effects until dropping below 6 fatigue. That gives him 10 to 14 fatigue to use during battle.
When applied to advantages other than those of the point-and-shoot variety, the Costs Fatigue limitation requires you to spend the stated fatigue upon activation, and to spend half that amount at the beginning of each subsequent minute. Since combat is in one second increments, that means that you have 60 rounds before having to maintain the effect. If Doug plays a five minute song and has Costs Fatigue x 2, then he spends 6 fatigue (2+1+1+1+1) unless he ends the song early. If he only has Costs Fatigue x 1, then he spends 5 fatigue (1+1+1+1+1, the 1/2 points keep rounding up). The only difference in cost is for the first minute. By using the first limitation, Doug has a meaningful reason to stick with a single song rather than song-hop every minute; it is more tiring to change songs than to stick with one.
As for worries about conflics with other powers, there is not necessarily any need for Doug to spend fatigue on specific manifestations of his power templates unless he includes that limitation on the specific effect (ie. requiring fatigue to be spent to use a specific Innate Attack). Even then, he could just define some levels of the advantage as free of fatigue and require that it be spent to utilize higher levels (ie. he can throw 5d6 fireballs for as long as the song lasts, but throwing 10d6 fireballs is tiring). The Ultra Power advantage would similarly allow him to pump up the effects of a song in exchange for spending a lot of fatigue and making a successful Will roll.
Additionally, Doug may actually define the fatigue used to power his advantages as mana, and could then buy a mana reserve for 3 points per level. Thus he'd be spending a lot of points in combat, but would make up for that by having a lot of points to spend.
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"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV

Combat hyping—problem solved. Okay. I can work with that. If he’s not ultrafast (as it pertains to supers), maybe just a Basic Speed of 9, and some good 8-10 levels of Enhanced Dodge.
As another point, Doug does not need “Improvised Forms” as he cannot change what the individual template does to him.

Bob Schroeck Wrote:Back to the resurrection question, it occurs to me that it's again a matter of how we approach it. Even in the original campaign it's a theurgic effect -- he doesn't resurrect, he contacts some supernatural entity who can and basically whines and begs and makes a deal until they do the raising. So using it as a benchmark is probably wrong; it probably is closer in cost to casting a resurrection spell. (As in, magery + prereqs + cost of the spell itself.)

Nah, that’s not necessary. The mechanics of how he does it are separate from the special effects. What matters is how effective is it? If it’s generally going to work, then it’s just a higher level. If it’s kinda hinky, it’s a lower level.

Shepherd Wrote:Doug's powers are significantly more awesome than those of Photocopier-Guy, as Doug knows hundreds of power templates. Doug is not operating under a limitation, much less a -50% limitation; his power has (at least) one major enhancement. Since the Cosmic enhancement lets you break the rules in specific ways, a +50% to the power cost could give Doug an unlimited number of possible forms in his power catalog. Since listening to songs (which can be accomplished with an iPod) is much easier that seeing/touching specific beings, that would probably count as a seperate +20% enhancement.

But does doesn’t know any of the templates. He knows what the songs do, but Doug cannot control them. If you take away his helmet and earplug, he’s at the mercy of what’s playing. Doug cannot choose to activate Another One Bites the Dust without hearing it. He doesn’t have it memorized, he must have it played. Therefore, he has the limitation. He cannot use the power without outside assistance. All it would take to separate him from his ability is the removal of his helmet, or a deafness affliction.
Separate your special effects from your mechanics. Just because Doug knows what a thousand different songs can do for him, doesn’t help him if suddenly he’s cut off from music. It would be no different from someone who kept a hair sample of everyone he ever met (I actually know someone that OCD) to use their powers and abilities.
Just having Morph gives Doug access to any template that the GM chooses to make available to him. He doesn’t need Cosmic for that. No, he has Cosmic in his Morph so that he can have it generate powers when they wouldn’t normally exist.
But, just for clarification, I'm asking Kromm. As I'm not that familiar with Morph, and, well, he is.

Shepherd Wrote:That would be an Accessibility limitation.

Yeah, I’m a moron sometimes.

Shepherd Wrote:While he may not need a power check to use a song, Doug almost certainly has Ultra Power anyway. It easily explains the times he pushes a particular song past its regular limits (ie. his use of White Wedding during the Bubblegum Crisis step). Ultra Power is also useful for acts of superheroics that don't involve his music powers. Since he has the advantage anyway, it also makes a good mechanism for forcing a new power song to manifest during combat.

As a separate point, I agree that he may have Ultra Power, but he does not need it as it pertains to his musical ability.

Shepherd Wrote:You misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about applying a cost reduction to the Morph "template". I was comparing the cost of Morph + Template to the cost of Modular Abilities (cosmic power). Since that advantage is worth ten points per level and the biggest discount you can get on an advantage is -80%, the minimum cost of Modular Abilities (cosmic power) winds up as twice the cost of Doug's most expensive template. Unless the cost of Morph winds up higher than Doug's most expensive template (highly unlikely), Morph is the cheaper way to go.

Ah, sorry. I do that sometimes.
As for the FP issue, I’m perfectly fine saying that it doesn’t cost Doug any FP. The GM can charge people FP for prolonged combat, or prolonged use of abilities anyway, and that sounds like what is happening to Doug. Sure, it’s tiring, but not on the same scale as costs FP. If Bob says it isn’t important, I’m going to agree with him.
I was pegging Doug as having a HT of 14 with Very Fit, myself. That gives him a general roll of 16, and extremely fast FP recovery anyway.

Quote:If he’s not ultrafast (as it pertains to supers), maybe just a Basic Speed of 9, and some good 8-10 levels of Enhanced Dodge.

Depends on how you define "ultra". Doug is four and a half times as fast as J. Average Normal when it comes to combat initiative, and gets three to four actions for every one said normal gets.

Quote:What matters is how effective is it? If it’s generally going to work, then it’s just a higher level. If it’s kinda hinky, it’s a lower level.

Okay, that's hard to say. Doug's used it only once in-game, and once in-story; it's difficult to generalize from that. I'm also unable to look up the V&V mechanics to see what, if anything, the subject has to do in the way of a roll. I think it's completely on Doug's side, and it's a straight on raise, no chance of failure. I do remember that the power cost of Resurrection is dramatic -- all his power points and all but one HP, which is why he collapsed after raising the two kids in DW2.

Oh, yes, and there is that. The song specifies, "Two hearts that lost the beat will now resume/The gift of life extension/By divine intervention". Doug can raise two people at once.

Quote:Doug cannot choose to activate Another One Bites the Dust without hearing it. He doesn’t have it memorized, he must have it played. Therefore, he has the limitation.

Correct.

Quote:I'm asking Kromm. As I'm not that familiar with Morph, and, well, he is.

And well you do. Since I essentially invented Morph as it currently exists, you'd think I'd be a good source, but... it's been a few years, and the 4E version is slightly different from what I created for The Book From Hell Shapeshifters.

Quote:I was pegging Doug as having a HT of 14 with Very Fit, myself. That gives him a general roll of 16, and extremely fast FP recovery anyway.

If you think that works best, cool. In V&V terms, Doug is as fit and hardy as a normal human can possibly get, with a score of 18, but the effects of the stat are far more vaguely defined than the GURPS equivalent.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Bob Schroeck Wrote:Depends on how you define "ultra". Doug is four and a half times as fast as J. Average Normal when it comes to combat initiative, and gets three to four actions for every one said normal gets.

As I’ve never played V&V, the question comes, is it like Hero where a normal person gets 2 actions in a turn and a normal super can have up to (or, in rare cases more than) 12 actions? Or is it like D&D where turns are longer and some people can have more actions as they improve. Because of the way GURPS works (which I'm sure you know), with everyone getting an action every turn, three-to-four actions would be two or three levels of Altered Time Rate.
I have no problem with that, as long as that's what Doug has. And, that's not to say that, certain songs can't change his form into having some ATR or Extra Attacks. Or, my favorite (and my player's least favorite), an AoE, selective area, Affliciton that gives Decreased Time Rate.

Bob Schroeck Wrote:Okay, that's hard to say. Doug's used it only once in-game, and once in-story; it's difficult to generalize from that. I'm also unable to look up the V&V mechanics to see what, if anything, the subject has to do in the way of a roll. I think it's completely on Doug's side, and it's a straight on raise, no chance of failure. I do remember that the power cost of Resurrection is dramatic -- all his power points and all but one HP, which is why he collapsed after raising the two kids in DW2.
Oh, yes, and there is that. The song specifies, "Two hearts that lost the beat will now resume/The gift of life extension/By divine intervention". Doug can raise two people at once.

Oh, well, that’ll be significantly cheaper as it requires him use it on two people at once. There’s no reason that we can’t poke more limitations on it. And I'm sure Doug hated that last line . . ..
What it comes down to is: how powerful can a song make him? What's the most amazing thing he's ever done? (PM Incomming, Bob)

Bob Schroeck Wrote:Correct.
And well you do. Since I essentially invented Morph as it currently exists, you'd think I'd be a good source, but... it's been a few years, and the 4E version is slightly different from what I created for The Book From Hell Shapeshifters.

I'm pretty lucky that, after a rocky start, Kromm actually likes me. And, once again, Dr. Kromm comes through for us.

Mark Skarr Wrote:Sorry to pester you, but, I'm back with a Morph question (I'm not that familiar with it, so please have pity).
The character in question can change forms when exposed to music, and only when exposed to specific songs. So, in order to use Template A, they must hear Song A. In order to use Template B, they must hear Song B. They cannot activate Template A with Song B, or any other song, or anything else. They must hear Song A and only Song A. Also, if they hear Song A, Template A becomes active, whether they want it to or not.
So, my question is:
Does this character qualify for "Cannot Memorize Forms?"
A. Yes, they are not memorizing forms, each form is activated by an Uncontrolled Trigger.
B. No, they must have all the forms memorized, but are still functioning from an Uncontrolled Trigger.
C. Where do you come up with things like this?
My logic, is, mechanically, the Song is the sample they need to change forms. As long as it plays, they can use the template, but the moment it ends, or changes, the template reverts or changes.
But, it wouldn't be the first time I'm totally off my rocker.

Kromm Wrote:I would say so . . . because, well, the character can't memorize forms! I could imagine another character with the same music-themed ability but who can go through her iTunes library and assign songs to new forms, or even compose a song for each new form. She would clearly be better-off than this one, who can only turn into the specific forms associated with a particular repertoire. At best, she can count on the GM being evil and inventing song/form combos of which she isn't even aware. That sounds like a valid limitation.

(As I make a lot of female characters, Kromm figured it was one of mine ;-P)
Oh, and by the way, Bob, my sister loved Shapeshifters.

Bob Schroeck Wrote:If you think that works best, cool. In V&V terms, Doug is as fit and hardy as a normal human can possibly get, with a score of 18, but the effects of the stat are far more vaguely defined than the GURPS equivalent.

With a HT of 14+Very Fit he’s only going to fail a HT roll on a 17 or 18 . . . precisely what he’d fail on with a HT of 20, or a 30, or a 40. On the other hand, he can’t soak very many penalties. One way or the other Doug has Very Fit.
The stats I was going to go with were:
ST 14 (2x as strong as a normal human)
DX 20 (maybe more, but I was pegging him at 20 for the moment)
IQ 13 (genius level, but not hyper-intelligent)
HT 14 (extremely healthy)
I don’t have a problem with Doug having a HT of 20. It just doesn’t come up much in the stories of how healthy he is beyond “healthy.”

Quote:As I’ve never played V&V, the question comes, is it like Hero where a normal person gets 2 actions in a turn and a normal super can have up to (or, in rare cases more than) 12 actions? Or is it like D&D where turns are longer and some people can have more actions as they improve

Okay, combat initiative is based on Agility (or in the case of those with Heightened Speed, Agility + 1/10 of their ground speed bonus). Initiative is generated by rolling 1d10 and adding it to this base.

Doug has a 47 agility, the average normal has 10 (well, 10.5, but it rounds down). On an average combat round -- with a roll of 5 for both -- Doug will have an Initiative of 52, and the normal 15.

Highest initiative goes first, obviously. And for every 15 points of initiative, counting down, you get another action. So Doug would go on 52, then 37, then 22, then the normal would go on 15, and Doug again on 7. (There is no 0 action.)

This is a simplified case, of course, but you should get the idea. Yes, the normal could get 2 actions (acting on anywhere from 20 to 16, and again on 5 to 1, depending on the roll). But Doug would still act twice before they did, and win any ties where they both acted on the same phase.

And if he reserves one of his earlier actions, he could even interrupt the other person's action on a phase when he wouldn't normally be able to act. (He/I did that a lot. It's good to be fast in V&V.)

Does that help any?

Quote:And, that's not to say that, certain songs can't change his form into having some ATR or Extra Attacks.

Oh, some do. When he shifts to a tiger, he gets a Claw/Claw/Bite/Rake attack sequence. And of course, he can always use the V&V multiple attacks rule, but that doesn't have a GURPS equivalent.

Quote:how powerful can a song make him? What's the most amazing thing he's ever done?

That's terribly subjective. Konya wa Hurricane certainly qualifies. Resurrection is pretty amazing (and no, it doesn't require two targets, it can affect up to two).

To be absolutely honest, 75% or more of Doug's awesome is SFX that doesn't really have a game (or story) effect.

Quote:ST 14 (2x as strong as a normal human)

Fair enough. Without digging out his character sheet, I recall his carry cap is in the vicinity of 250 lbs.

Quote:IQ 13 (genius level, but not hyper-intelligent)

Ah, well, there's a rub... Doug is hyperintelligent -- 300 IQ (30 Int vs. 10 Int for a normal), along with a near-eidetic memory. He has a raft of mental disadvantages that take the edge off that, including impulsiveness, his tendency to leap to conclusions, and a few other things, but he is brilliant. He got through an Ivy League university by reading his textbooks once at the beginning of each semester.

As for health, whatever works. Doug doesn't get sick, without his armor he could take several volleys of small arms fire with little effect, and he just keeps going when folks think he ought to drop (part of which is sheer cussedness, aka willpower, but still). However you want to quantify that.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

Oh, and I don't know if this helps, but have you seen his http://www.accessdenied-rms.net/dougfuzn.shtml]Fuzion writeup on my website?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

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