Florin Wrote:There's a series of books that starts with There Will Be Dragon's that deals with a similar idea, although it's set WAY in the future and doesn't involve aliens. Unfortunatly, it's written by John Ringo and thus involves extended rants against Democratic style thinking and scientific rationality. It also contain's 'Heroes' who I dearly wish death upon.
Not really 'calling you out', in the 'ass whuppin' sense of the term, but I did want to have a nice discussion about There Will Be Dragons (the Sparrowfall universe or Council War universe as it's known in my house) without stepping on someone else's worldseed.
I like the series quite a lot, and I cannot for the life of me remember any 'anti-Republican' thinking rants in it. Could you elucidate on that point, Florin, and for that matter, on Republican Thinking?Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
Basically, Ringo, like certain other authors who occupy large suites in the Baen stable, is a staunch Classical Liberal - the position theoretically occupied by the current Republican party. The political philosophy can be loosely summarized thusly: The true function of government is the maximization of individual liberty, except where its excercise is undertaken at the expense of others. It's very reminiscent of Heinlein's writing, with less condescension to women.
For example, consider their view of the US Constitution. Imagine it from their point of view: A contract created and agreed to by the people, in which a government is created and granted certain powers to act in certain areas for the benefit of the people. It, and the Bill of Rights and other amendments,
grant to the people exactly and explicitly NO rights. It recognizes, instead, that those rights belong to the people simply by virtue of their existence, and specifically prohibits the government from infringing them.
It shows frequently in their writing, and they have a tendency to vilify socialism in all its forms as a political philosophy.
The Peoples' Republic Of Haven, for example, is explicitly the United States of America after a lengthy period of rule by the Democratic Party.
ETA: The only 'scientific rationality' shown any despite is the idea that a "scientific" centrally-planned, command-driven economy and society is in any way valid. --
"I give you the beautiful... the talented... the tirelessly atomic-powered...
R!
DOROTHY!
WAYNERIGHT!
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make
anything explode.
Quote:
Basically, Ringo, like certain other authors who occupy large suites in the Baen stable, is a staunch Classical Liberal - the position theoretically occupied by the current Republican party.
Okay.
I don't want to get into a huge slapfight here, but if you're going to defend John Ringo on the grounds that he's a "Classical Liberal" then this needs to be said.
John Ringo
wrote a book glorifying the Waffen-SS. You know the Waffen-SS, right? Himmler's elite stormtroopers, the ones who killed American POWs at Malmedey, Candian POWs at Normandy, helped round up Jews for the camps...
those guys.
If
that's part of what you define as a "Classical Liberal" then we should bring back the fucking monarchy. I'll have no part of it.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord
interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
Quote:
If that's part of what you define as a "Classical Liberal" then we should bring back the fucking monarchy. I'll have no part of it.
I'll have no part of
glorifying that kind of behavior myself. Analyzing it and learning from it and,
in extremis, putting it to use in the path of something worse, though? That I'll do.
Try looking beyond the knee-jerk rants of people who are ready to believe the worst of anyone who doesn't worship at the altar of Pelosi and Clinton and actually read the book.
Having looked at the review you point to, the asshole's blatant bias is sickening. Quotes like "Baen Books has, even going back to the Reagan era, long been SF's home for jingoistic, hyper-violent right-wing power fantasies." make it clear that this person is someone whose opinion I'll not only think twice about, but utterly reject.--
"I give you the beautiful... the talented... the tirelessly atomic-powered...
R!
DOROTHY!
WAYNERIGHT!
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make
anything explode.
Political slam aside, let me reiterate: Glorifying.
Nazis.
This is what your "Classical Liberal" Ringo has wrought. A book glorifying Nazis.
Fucking
Nazis.
If it's okay to you that your man Ringo put his name on a book whose thesis is "those SS guys, they aren't so bad, and their sheer willpower will save us when the Evil Liberals fail humanity," then rock the fuck out
kemosabe. I'll not disparage another man's taste in literature.
And I don't actually expect you to fall over, cry out "the scales have fallen from my eyes!" and then embark on a new path. That would be stupid. Funny, but stupid.
All I'm saying is, if that's liberal - classical, modern, neo, what the fuck ever - then call me a monarchist. 'Cause liberalism just jumped the shark, and the shark was on fire.
And wearing a SS uniform.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord
interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
In my opinion, Ringo is usually only 1 step above most self-insertion writers, and that step is he manged to get published.
Overly given to techno-babble, the antagonists are always easily waved off as entirely selfish/malevolent, etc. Protagonists are always Swell Guys, or just misunderstood.
Most of his characters are generally one-dimensional.
OTOH, some of the stories where he is kept in check by a more experienced author are quite good. I loved the "March to.." series.
Has anyone read the book where ringo glorifies Nazis?
I don't know if it has has any relation to a technique I remember Jonathan Swift using. You know the man who wrote Gulliver's Travels.
Mr. Swift wrote a work advocating Eating young children.
If you skimed the work say for a review or a very quick book report it seems to be a very serious proposal to change England's law to allow women to have children and sell them for food.
Children the new veal might be a rough paraphase of the ideas he seemed to support in the work.
Mr. Swift almost seems to be openly advocating cannibalism.
Actually it was an attack on the treatment of children both by thier parents and other groups in his society such as sweat shops that he thought were in a very real sense "eating" the children as slave labor.
He was calling a segment of Englands population, some powerful and many nearly powerless, cannibals because extremely young children were being worked to death both by thier parents who had them for that express purpose and the powerful class who were supporting it to increase thier own profit and power.
I don't like Ringo's writing style so I usually avoid his books, but has anyone actually read this book?
Did any of the readers of the book get the idea that Ringo trying to use false sense of support for something as horrible as the Nazis to point out a flaw in society?
Is he pulling a Jonathan Swift cannibal proposal or does he seem to be displaying actual sympathy for the Nazis?
howard melton
God bless
Quote:
ETA: The only 'scientific rationality' shown any despite is the idea that a "scientific" centrally-planned, command-driven economy and society is in any way valid.
I couldn't quite parse this sentence.
Now, that review... Someone who writes a review like that, I don't think I'd trust anything they say, no matter what political position they're espousing.
I can personally think of a few ways things could have been done where this book wouldn't be glorifying nazis, but without having read the book myself it's hard to say.
Also interestingly, the person writing this review seems to think Kratman's responsible for most of it. Which kind of makes things difficult."I have no interest in ordinary humans. If there are any aliens, time travelers, or espers here, come sleep with me."
---From "The Ecchi of Haruhi Suzumiya"
-----(Not really)
Quote:
Did any of the readers of the book get the idea that Ringo trying to use false sense of support for something as horrible as the Nazis to point out a flaw in society?
Truthfully? Not really. I got the impression that the support for the Nazis was based on some level of legitimate respect on the author's part. If anything, the support for the Nazis was intended to point out "flaws" in modern-day society like our general unwillingness to go apeshit and kill every living thing we see in times of conflict. Basically "yeah, they were racists and bastards, but they knew how to run a war!"
....which, I have to point out, they
didn't. If they did, they would've
won. But I digress.
The thesis is not new. It's that Hard Men of Will Are Needed In Times Of Crisis, and Hard Men Must Stand Up When Weaklings Cower, etc. etc. Standard he-man bullshit with a helping of
Dolschtosslegende on the side, nothing particularly noteworthy save for the whole Nazi-veneration thing.
If you want Swiftian parable about Nazis in SF/F, you want Spinrad's
The Iron Dream. Beautiful Howard pastiche and unsettling commentary on certain tropes in Howard pastiches all in the same package. Ringo and Kratman... not so much.
And that is all I'm going to say on the subject. I've said my thing.---
Mr. Fnord
http://fnord.sandwich.net/
http://www.jihad.net/
Mr. Fnord
interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
Having read (and in honesty, quite enjoying the book as a read) it (it's called Watch on the Rhine), I'd have said that the theme is of the horrors of war. And if you want to showcase a military unit that will do horrible things in war because, objectively or subjectively, the alternative is worse, the Waffen SS is a likely pick.
Of course, in this book, I believe that they are objectively correct. The alternative to what they are doing is not just death on a grand scale, it is the reduction of humanity to a foodstuff.
In WWII, I am certainly not going to argue that they were wrong.
I don't recall the Council Wars books having such a contentious theme. What Ringo does have as a writer is gift for portraying villains as villains without making them any less people. And while he's certainly got opinions (from what I understand anyway) they come through much less in his books than in others I have read. Robert Adams' Clan of the Cat for one example.
D for Drakensis
You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
Did I say anti-republican? I certainly didn't mean to, I was thinking more anti-democrat. In the council war books, it's not that big, mostly a huge and pointless rant about how global warming is complete nonsense created by enviromentalists to take away corporations God given right to make money, and if we ignore it, it'll go away. In fact, the heroes solution to alot of problems seems to be ignore it, it'll go away. Humanity breeding itself to extiction through laziness and widespread genetic manipulation? Eh, it'll fix itself if we ignore it!
My main problem with the 'heroes' in the series really came to a head in the third book, when, after spending all this time patting themselves on the backs for treating the Changed as humans, unlike thier enemies, they slaughter and EAT a strike force of Changed, and then make jokes about it. I was also bothered how humanity went from basically no government to Feudal Serfdom in like, a week. And finally while the 'villian' is indeed doing horrible things, he's doing them out of a genuine desire to save humanity from becoming extinct. Granted, some of his actions and most of his allies are questionable, but I think it's entirely possible that the good guys might actually be fighting for the wrong side in this. The fact that Bun-Bun is helping them may be a clue.
Also, I was thinking that the book 'A State of Disobedience', in which the Democrat's gain control of congress and immediatly begin thier traditional child burning and priest killing activites, was written by John Ringo. It's actually written by Tom Kratman, with a small blurb on the cover by Ringo.
Also Also, for some reason, I really hate Bast.--
Comb your hair, damn anime hippies.
--
If you become a monster to put down a monster you've still got a monster running around at the end of the day and have as such not really solved the whole monster problem at all.
Well, dropping my two cents in while on break...
I like quite a few of Baen Books offerings - though sometimes I have to turn off some of my triggers; not the Republican/Democrat triggers since I don't live in the States and we don't have that sort of insanity here, just a different sort.
Ringo's pretty out there but I pretty much don't take him seriously;he won Romance Novelist of the Year with Choosers of the Slain - which is a pretty good Carrot Glace self-insertion military fanfic, which is not a knock on anyone's part - those two are pretty fun people to read.
Anyway, I read his stuff, yes - even the SS book, yes that one, and wasn't that much offended. But like I said I turn my triggers off and read it for what it is: fiction that's supposed to put food on his table and hopefully entertain the reader, with occasional contextual and subtextual diatribes and tirades. Besides if I really don't like a book, I stop reading and sell it off on the second-hand market and not have it pollute my library.
Pretty much nothing gets to me - well, except for Harry Turtledove but that's another kettle of fish and that's why I don't buy his new books anymore. ^_^
Anyway maybe you should relocate this to the Politics forum since Ringo is pretty political from what I read of of the reactions of his work.
Thanks for the overviews of the work.
As I said I never read his books, I've tried a few of the free samples Baen supplies, but they have never interested me enough to make me want to buy a pure Ringo book.
I have purchased some of the shared works he has written with other writers and enjoyed them.
I like that about Baen their large free samples or even complete books has certainly made it easier for me to find a book
From the overviews it sounds like Mr. Ringo might have been trying to use the Nazis in some byplay way, but got lost in the presentation.
That's part of the reason I've never liked stories that use Swiftian parable or other types of byplay.
Unless the writer is very gifted he and the reader gets lost in the presentation.
Another reason I don't like such byplay is that they often have a short shelf life and focus on such a narrow segment of society that people outside it or not fully versed in the background can understand it.
Speaking of background does anyone know if Mr. Ringo came from a military background?
The few free samples I've read seemed in my opinon to have the feel of a veterian discharge after a few years of hard experiences.
Over the years I've seen several book reviews that seemed focused more on putting down Baen than actually reviewing the book publisher.
I ignore such thinly biased reviews.
Personally I've always admired and enjoyed the very large free samples and even entire books Baen supplies.
This large free sample policy is nearly unique in publishing and has served me well. It has prevented me from buying books I'd have regretted wasting money on and has caused me to buy books that I'd passed up and missed the enjoyment of.
The large free samples has generated a certain about of loyalty toward Baen and when I have money to spend on books their selection is always checked first.
If Mr. Ringo was using the Nazis as an example of good fighters or warriors I have to disagree with that.
I agree with M Fnord I think the Nazis aren't good at fighting. What the Nazis were good at was making people feel good about themselves and rallying people to a single focused cause and goal.
This tight focus on a single cause and goal can be powerful, but in the Nazi movement it comes at a very great price and cost to the minds of the leaders and followers. They are ultimately made blind to the thier own faults and weakness.
The Nazis movement with it's master race core made the leaders and many of the German people blind to thier own flaws and faults.
To the Nazis's they were never wrong or at fault, it was always something or someone elses weaknesses or faults. Such as the Jews, Gypsies, the people you have just conquered or even the enemy's so called cheating, which guided them into a inward turning spiral of ever deeper hatred and blindness that made certain they would lose the war.
howard melton
God bless
Quote:
It shows frequently in their writing, and they have a tendency to vilify socialism in all its forms as a political philosophy.
The Peoples' Republic Of Haven, for example, is explicitly the United States of America after a lengthy period of rule by the Democratic Party.
ECS, this is a long-running, time-honored plot tradition you're talking about, found in many other stories spanning decades. I say this so that you don't misinterpret me- your point is valid, though I politely, respectlessly disagree with your belief that this is a *bad* thing.
That said, the Honorverse is almost entirely an SF-version of late 18th century- early 19th century Europe. It's a retelling of C.S. Forester's _Horatio Hornblower_ stories- originally set in the Napoleonic Wars. Britain is Manticore (Queen Elizabeth III- really!), while the Andermani are Germany. "Asgard" and "Midgard", minor star nations, draw their names from Norse mythology- I'd call them the new Scandinavia.
As for Haven? Haven began as post-Revolutionary France- similar to the U.S. in many respects, as the French Revolution originally patterned itself to some degree off of ours. After a few centuries, it became the system seen in the earlier novels (which occupies the same place, historically, as Napoleonic France (main adversary to the British/Manticorans)). I'd guess that the "People's Republic" part of it is either a dig at modern France or China (given the size of the PN and its technology problems). Then, you have the Committee of Public Safety- who appeared in the French Revolution. It's led by Rob Pierre- Rob S. Pierre, where the original was led by a Frenchman named Robespierre. Oscar Saint-Just was one of the major Committee members- the original Committee had a man named Louis de Saint-Just in the inner circle. The capital of Haven is Nouveau Paris.
I've heard that some of the later incarnations of Haven, after their original constitution is restored, resemble the U.S., but by that time, they're no longer the main enemy- in fact, they're being protrayed as noble types, kind of like how we Americans used to think of our Founding Fathers.
Sorry about all that- you impugned my Honor, and I had to clear it. It's just that I have a hard time dealing with people reading political motives into things that didn't have them- or, at least, had a different set. Politics is bad enough already- why look for it in new and different places when you don't have to?
Also, _Horatio Hornblower_ is a really good series of books, and I figured that anything that brings it up is probably worth it.
My
Unitarian Jihad Name is:
Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate.
Get yours.
I've been writing a bit.
To Elsa:
Quote:
Anyway, I read his stuff, yes - even the SS book, yes that one, and wasn't that much offended. But like I said I turn my triggers off and read it for what it is: fiction that's supposed to put food on his table and hopefully entertain the reader, with occasional contextual and subtextual diatribes and tirades. Besides if I really don't like a book, I stop reading and sell it off on the second-hand market and not have it pollute my library.
I'm looking at the diatribes against John Ringo's "Watch an Rheim", especially about the Waffen SS.
Well, unfortunately the facts speak for themselves.
There are documented episodes of Waffen SS formations (The Hitler Jugend in the Normandy campaign, Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler in the 1940 Ardennes campaign and the Battle of the Bulge comes to mind) where they had executed prisoners. Because the standing order was that no prisoners are to be taken (alive that is).
But that does not alter the fact that the Waffen SS (some of the divisions anyway) were elite fighting formations, on par with the French Foreign Legion and the Marine Corps for their ferocity and fighting skills. Though I'd suspect people would foam at the mouth for putting all of them in the same sentence.
You may had noticed, Elsa, that there are some words that are trigger emotions. "Waffen SS" is one of those.
Let me prove it to you. I'll say two words to you, and tell me what you feel about it.
Death March
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
It is true that these words - these concepts, really - have instant emotional impact. It means that writing stories that swim counter to the current on these ideas will net you opposition Just Because - in places, it will net you passionate opposition.
It does not inherently mean that those who choose to take that gambit are either a) Bad Writers or b) Bad People. Those questions come down to what you *do* with it.
WOW!
I hadn't quite expected this level of diatribe to come out of a simple request for clarification - OK, I'm lying, but this is still a bit more than I'd thought I'd see.
Ringo's "Choosers of the Slain" and others in that universe are nigh-pure self-insertion man-masturbation literature. They're low-grade pulps brought up in the year 2000, and they are a damn fine read so long as you can turn your brain off and enjoy the bullets, beer, and babes.
The Honorverse was covered elegantly and well by Bluemage - I can't say anything that wasn't already covered there, except, of course, "Yay! Treecats!"
The Council Wars are also covered very well here in this thread - Florin gave me exactly what I asked for. I agree that the 'good guys' aren't nearly as good as they could be, and the 'bad guys' aren't nearly as bad.
However, I think you, the generic you, have lost track of where the Council Wars started - this wasn't a thinly-veiled clone of modern-day Earth, this was post-utopia Earth, and to have it embroiled into Civil War...
I think that the Changed are the biggest differentiation between the good and bad guys in this book. The good guys may have killed and eaten some Changed, but they didn't bloody well _make_ them. You also don't see any of the 'good guys' keeping a friggin harem...
But I digress. Florin is essentially correct - noone's hands are completely clean in this universe, and that just makes it all the more fun. I personally love Bast, but I have a thing about sexual liberation through high technology, and hot elves. I do believe that the whole 'elf' concept was badly handled in this universe, it seems to be magic where everything else was science.
Bun-bun I have no explanation for.
Regarding the Waffen SS, I have not yet read watch over the rhine, it'll be wednesday before I can get home and pull it from the archive, and friday or better before I can finish it. But, from reviews and discussions, I don't think this is your father's SS. The Espirit Des Corps and the military command structure of the SS is a useful and valuable tool, especially when there is NO moral component to fighting the Posleen. none. You kill. Kill and kill and kill and kill until there's no killing left to be done. Or you die.
The Posleenverse is political at one remove - with Posties on the horizon, noone has political beliefs. You kill, or you die.
And in further news, I'm discussing this book with my literary advisor right now. In Rhine, the Waffen SS are 'resurrected' by the German political leadership with two 'forgiving' factors. First, the 'Nazi' elements are removed - this incarnation is a military unit, not a force of racial subjugation. Second, they are all going to die. The vote was split in the German political counsel, and the last swing voter agreed, with the proviso that they all be used up - which was agreed to. These are elite military officers who know that they are going to die in defense of Germany, and they will happily ressurect the espirit des corps of that hated unit, because it will bloody well _work_. A nonmilitary Germany needs a powerful totem to get behind and push, and the Waffen SS is a damn fine totem for that purpose.
glorifying Nazis, indeed. Next thing you know, you people are going to try and convince me that JK Rowling isn't a no-talent hack plagarist.
Just got off the phone with my literary advisor - he claims that the Council Wars universe is pretty much done for, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's not profitable, it seems..Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979
(I know I wasn't gonna come back in, but this bears expansion.)
Quote:
Bun-bun I have no explanation for.
Bun-Bun is there because Ringo's one of the original Sluggy Freelance fanboys, and has a habit of putting Sluggy callbacks in his work. I think Abrams even did some art for one of the Posleen e-books, but don't quote me on that.
--Mr. F, returning to bow-out mode.
Mr. Fnord
interdimensional man of mystery
FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information
"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
Not just the e-books -- several Sluggy strips written as if Abrams was doing so during the war appear in the back of the third novel. Torg and Riff trying to disguise themselves as Posleen, Bun-bun and Kiki hijacking an ACS to steal gold...
As for Watch on the Rhine: Let me put it this way... I'm Jewish and I could stand reading that book. If just barely. I have a fairly high ability to suspend political outrage for the sake of enjoying an action yarn, but Ringo tends to be right on the edge for me...
During WWII, it really didn't matter how elite or non- the SS or any other German troops were. Never mind their tactics, the overall Nazi strategy involved getting in a war with three nations that together overwhelmingly outnumbered and out-produced Germany; once the Allied war effort got into gear, nothing short of a science fiction deus ex machina could possibly have saved the Axis.
--Sam
"Ninjas. I can't stand them. They're everywhere."
Quote:
It is true that these words - these concepts, really - have instant emotional impact. It means that writing stories that swim counter to the current on these ideas will net you opposition Just Because - in places, it will net you passionate opposition.
Actually, that phrase was kinda general. But Elsa would had known what I was talking about:
Specifically
Bataan Death March
If you want more examples of one word trigger words
Buchenwald
Dachau
Nanjing
It depends on what side of the word you're on.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
Quote:
During WWII, it really didn't matter how elite or non- the SS or any other German troops were. Never mind their tactics, the overall Nazi strategy involved getting in a war with three nations that together overwhelmingly outnumbered and out-produced Germany; once the Allied war effort got into gear, nothing short of a science fiction deus ex machina could possibly have saved the Axis.
Hitler's biggest strategic blunder was his casual declaration of war against the U.S after Pearl Harbor. He really wasn't under any obligation to do so. It really would had been a tough sell for Roosevelt to the U.S. public that the Americans should go after the Nazis first (rather than the Japs) if Germany stayed neutral. hitler's declaration solved that problem.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
Quote:
It is true that these words - these concepts, really - have instant emotional impact. It means that writing stories that swim counter to the current on these ideas will net you opposition Just Because - in places, it will net you passionate opposition.
It does not inherently mean that those who choose to take that gambit are either a) Bad Writers or b) Bad People. Those questions come down to what you *do* with it.
Ringo is very, very,
very political. And very very polarising.
That doesn't make him a bad author, though. I'm using the word "bad" not as a measure of literary quality, but a yardstick of financial success.
He is a success. That can't be denied. He's published, widely printed, and a bestselling author. For whatever reason, lots of people buy his books.
Now, I'm just speculating here, but it's possible that...part of his success may be due to, I dunno, his tackling of delicate issues head-on, as it were. In a less than sensitive fashion.
Lord knows parts of his books have made me
wince, put then down, and just
walk away, because I literally wasn't able to continue reading until I calmed down a little.
That said...that kind of thing really does make you
think about the issues involved. Be they...hm, I dunno, militant terrorism in the Islamic world, or BDSM sexual practices.
'course, you know the old saw. The two things you should never discuss in polite company are politics and religion. But if you don't talk about 'em, what's left to talk about?
Granted, I don't know if sparking debate or thought about the matter is Ringo's intent, or simply an accident. Maybe he simply uses such subject matter to make his action yarns more "gritty"... like a goth kid with excessive makeup for club cred. Hard to say. It depends on how much literary credit you wanna give him.
In terms of his prose and ability to structure a narrative...I think he's a decent writer. I've read some of his stuff, and mostly enjoyed it, on balance. He does good action, and he understands military stuff. If I remember correctly, John Ringo did serve in the Airborne, so he knows what he's talking about.
Personally, I view his stuff like...an action movie. Light entertainment, but not to be taken that seriously.
-- Acyl
While I didn't like his Council War books I do enjoy most of his other books, like March to the Stars. Most of my hatred for him came from my belief that he wrote A State of Disobedience. Of course, from what I hear reading his latest, 'Ghost', would put me right back there.
Also, with the Council War, I don't dislike the fact that the Good guys and bad guys aren't completly black and white, it just that I can't shake the feeling that the Good Guys may not, in fact, be the good guys.--
Comb your hair, damn anime hippies.
--
If you become a monster to put down a monster you've still got a monster running around at the end of the day and have as such not really solved the whole monster problem at all.
Really, haven't we Godwinned this thread to hell and back? ^_^
As for trigger words, I'm probably in the small minority of the Filipino people that responds to the words "Bataan Death March" with "Macarthur should have been with them so he could pay for his stupidity. War Plan Orange, my ass!", but hey, I blame that on my environment. ^_^
As for the other words I have minor twinges but as I said, I turn them off in advance when I'm approaching a work that I know contains some inflammatoriness. if they're not in my face I won't respond to them; which is why I wouldn't read the Turner Diaries or some of the really in-your-face stuff; but I can read Lovecraft and Howard with their "savage black hordes" and "dark horrors" with ease.
Probably my biggest trigger words are "Philippine-American War" and a few others that are pretty obscure for an American writer to twig on; my only big name trigger is "Hiroshima" but that's because of stories and nuclear destruction and Mama's birthday. Not that "Buchenvald" and other places of horror don't trigger anything, but I have the "Liberation of Manila" and the "Kempetai" as a nearer and much more immediate trigger words.
But back to Ringo, the "Ghost" series is ... in kind words, special forces self-insertion, only Clancy can do it better and Marcinko can do it worse. I enjoy it as and 80s action movie in print: ever watched Arnold's "Commando"? If so, turn that dial from "1", which is that movie, to "11"; sneering villains, women in distress, punchy action and dialogue you can kill a buffalo with; fun in a way but not for people who can't turn off the "smarts".
A State of Disobedience is weird in that I pretty much marginally enjoyed it while going all WTF!?!; seriously, Republican/Democrat American dichotomy is lost on me most of the time - I pretty much responded after reading it with at least having something to do while the computer defragged.
The SS book I read because it was part of the Aldenata series and I enjoyed it for the action and not the heavy handed squishy parts which I just read to get the plot and admittedly there to show the reader the macho badassness of the SS and explain why they weren't so bad guys. I still would have read it even with no apologies and it would have been a lot more interesting that way.
The Council War books are fun in a way but I gave up on them because they were a series, same way I gave up on Aldenata and later Honorverse (beyond War of Honor when I heard he was planning for 20 books; aaargh!!!).
Seriously, can't people write simple trilogies or stand-alones anymore? Or if a series, thinner books without the padding? The only series I kept on multi was Hornblower because they're pretty thin books and Aubrey/Maturin because the language and detail was crunchy.
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My main problem with the 'heroes' in the series really came to a head in the third book, when, after spending all this time patting themselves on the backs for treating the Changed as humans, unlike thier enemies, they slaughter and EAT a strike force of Changed, and then make jokes about it.
I think that the Changed strike force was one that was out to EAT a Changed population centre, but I don't have access to the book so I could be way off base here. I grant the point that it's not the most delightful of ideas even then but the underwater war seems to be breeding atrocities on both sides.
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I was also bothered how humanity went from basically no government to Feudal Serfdom in like, a week.
It was more few months, but if any government was going to arise under those circumstances I would have bet one a hierarchy with them that had the necessary skills at the top - like feudalism moulding into what is either an oligarchy or at least semi-democracy by the 3rd or 4th book.
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And finally while the 'villian' is indeed doing horrible things, he's doing them out of a genuine desire to save humanity from becoming extinct.
Genuine desire, yes. Although in his actual first appearance his arguements are rebutted on the basis that:
a) he's not the first person to worry about this
b) the rate of population fall off is decreasing
c) he's throwing around nazai slogans in his campaign against it
So he's also a geniune Hitler-in-the-making.D for Drakensis
You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.
D for Drakensis
You're only young once, but immaturity is forever.