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+--- Thread: Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit (/showthread.php?tid=12002)
Bushido: Way of Total Bullshit - Black Aeronaut - 12-19-2014
I just stumbled across this article on Tofugu and really, it explains a whole lot about why Japan seems so off-kilter - it's because we have been given the wrong impression entirely.
http://www.tofugu.com/2014/12/08/bushid ... -bullshit/
Really, now that I've read this article, I think the best example in pop culture of how Samurai actually behaved before the Tokugawa Shogunate unified the country is in Hayao Miyazaki's Princess Mononoke - everyone has their own agendas, act however they want to act, and not once is the word 'honor' dropped by anyone (that I can recall, anyhow). It would also explain why Lady Eboshi had absolutely zero qualms about the honor of pitting rifles against swords and archers.
This is going to change how I write some of Garrick's steps as some of them are in pre-Tokugawa settings.
- Bob Schroeck - 12-19-2014
Interesting... and kind of disappointing if it's true. I'll be curious to see what other sources have to say on this.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- LilFluff - 12-19-2014
I don't think I've seen that book given credit for the modern view of Bushido before. However, I have read in multiple places that Bushido is similar to Chivalry in that they were both codified and glorified after the time period in which it supposedly ruled the warrior classes. My suspicion is that Nitobe probably less invented the modern view of Bushido than popularized it for the 20th century (English speaking) audience or at most did a parallel invention of a romanticized view..
-----
Will the transhumanist future have catgirls? Does Japan still exist? Well, there is your answer.
- ordnance11 - 12-21-2014
Senggoku Jidai was a turbulent period when the low overthrew the high. Bushido only became institutionalized by the tokugawa as a way of keeping society stable... I.e static.
Look at toyotomi hideyoshi. The man was born a peasant and became the 2nd unifier of Japan. And one of his first acts is to make sure no other peasant does the same by codifying the segregation of social classes.
And chivalry was only practiced by those who can afford it during the Hundred years war and I don't recall it practiced during the Crusades.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- Black Aeronaut - 12-21-2014
Quote:ordnance11 wrote:Indeed, but the point of the article is that it never really had a name until the 1920s, and even then there were aspects of it that were all wrong. For example, while there were laws about castes, there was no code of chivalry of any sort. Like you said, it was only practiced by those who could afford to, and even then only if they felt like it.
Senggoku Jidai was a turbulent period when the low overthrew the high. Bushido only became institutionalized by the tokugawa as a way of keeping society stable... I.e static.
Look at toyotomi hideyoshi. The man was born a peasant and became the 2nd unifier of Japan. And one of his first acts is to make sure no other peasant does the same by codifying the segregation of social classes.
And chivalry was only practiced by those who can afford it during the Hundred years war and I don't recall it practiced during the Crusades.
One of the things that this will change for my writing will be where Garrick Grimm arrives in a feudal era analogue of Japan... and to his surprise, his guns are taken rather well. Many will praise the weapons for their efficiency at killing and long-distance striking capability... and surprisingly few will find any qualms about killing from such a long distance and with utter impunity. The only ones that would really call foul on the guns would be the people that Garrick would use them against.
Another thing that would change is that his enemies would be very quick to label him as an outside-context problem and deal with him as such. And the reason for this would be very, very simple: there is no place for him in their caste system. He is neither peasant, nor samurai. He has no claim on divinity (that they would recognize readily, anyhow) so he is not of the Imperials. And he does not steal, so they cannot really label him as a criminal. Anything he takes is by right of conquest, and at most they can label him an outlaw.
- DHBirr - 12-21-2014
Remember, though, that the real advantage to guns as opposed to the bow isn't range or even rate of fire, even if Mr. Grimm brings modern guns rather than matchlocks/flintlocks etc. It's how easy they are to learn. And a weapon that doesn't rely on strong, well-trained arms means a peasant grandmother, if she's got something to steady the gun on, can kill the equivalent of Musashi. That would raise the hackles of everybody in the warrior caste against whom rebels might hope to use such weapons. "The low overcoming the high" indeed. Vive la revolution! A la lanterne les aristos!
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Big Brother is watching you. And damn, you are so bloody BORING.
- ordnance11 - 12-21-2014
Quote:Black Aeronaut wrote:Actually, they can label him as a foreign invader and call on the gods help in expelling him. What would be funny if the gods answered and welcomed Garrick as kin. At which point, his only social equals would be the imperial family. And can you just see the chaos that would ensue!Quote:ordnance11 wrote:Indeed, but the point of the article is that it never really had a name until the 1920s, and even then there were aspects of it that were all wrong. For example, while there were laws about castes, there was no code of chivalry of any sort. Like you said, it was only practiced by those who could afford to, and even then only if they felt like it.
Senggoku Jidai was a turbulent period when the low overthrew the high. Bushido only became institutionalized by the tokugawa as a way of keeping society stable... I.e static.
Look at toyotomi hideyoshi. The man was born a peasant and became the 2nd unifier of Japan. And one of his first acts is to make sure no other peasant does the same by codifying the segregation of social classes.
And chivalry was only practiced by those who can afford it during the Hundred years war and I don't recall it practiced during the Crusades.
One of the things that this will change for my writing will be where Garrick Grimm arrives in a feudal era analogue of Japan... and to his surprise, his guns are taken rather well. Many will praise the weapons for their efficiency at killing and long-distance striking capability... and surprisingly few will find any qualms about killing from such a long distance and with utter impunity. The only ones that would really call foul on the guns would be the people that Garrick would use them against.
Another thing that would change is that his enemies would be very quick to label him as an outside-context problem and deal with him as such. And the reason for this would be very, very simple: there is no place for him in their caste system. He is neither peasant, nor samurai. He has no claim on divinity (that they would recognize readily, anyhow) so he is not of the Imperials. And he does not steal, so they cannot really label him as a criminal. Anything he takes is by right of conquest, and at most they can label him an outlaw.
The corrupted way in which Bushido was represented in the 20's by the Japanese government was funny and sad because the premise held was incorrect to be gin with.
If you look at the 47 ronin, can you say it to be an exemplar of Bushido conduct?
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- Black Aeronaut - 12-22-2014
Can't say as I haven't watched it yet. It looks like a tasty dish of eye candy, but I've heard that's all it really is. That being the case, though, it probably is not exemplar conduct of 'Bushido'.
EDIT: Forgot to add in this...
Quote:ordnance11 wrote:ThatQuote:Black Aeronaut wrote:Actually,
One
of the things that this will change for my writing will be where
Garrick Grimm arrives in a feudal era analogue of Japan... and to his
surprise, his guns are taken rather well. Many will praise the weapons
for their efficiency at killing and long-distance striking capability...
and surprisingly few will find any qualms about killing from such a
long distance and with utter impunity. The only ones that would really
call foul on the guns would be the people that Garrick would use them
against.
Another thing that would change is that his enemies
would be very quick to label him as an outside-context problem and deal
with him as such. And the reason for this would be very, very simple:
there is no place for him in their caste system. He is neither peasant,
nor samurai. He has no claim on divinity (that they would recognize
readily, anyhow) so he is not of the Imperials. And he does not steal,
so they cannot really label him as a criminal. Anything he takes is by
right of conquest, and at most they can label him an outlaw.
they can label him as a foreign invader and call on the gods help in
expelling him. What would be funny if the gods answered and welcomed
Garrick as kin. At which point, his only social equals would be the
imperial family. And can you just see the chaos that would ensue!
would be funny! But the two I'm primarily thinking of... Well, one of
them is godless as far as I can tell. In fact, to give you an idea of
how so, one of the side characters in the cannon continuity learned a
technique that 'summons spirits of the departed'. But she herself was
quick to discover that they were only constructs made of her own past
memories, and therefore her own perceptions of said people, and declared
the technique to be useless.
In the other... Pretty sure their
Gods would view Garrick as some meddlesome brat. He'll be trying to
thwart a genocide that the gods are willing to permit a thousand-year
curse to facilitate.
- ordnance11 - 12-22-2014
Maybe but would they deny him as one of their own?
Edit: talking about the historical account, not the anime.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- Black Aeronaut - 12-22-2014
That's a tough call to make. He'll definitely put out the vibe of New-Godling-of-Humankind, but in just about every historical account (even the Bible!) all deities seem to have a political agenda... Which means that Zeke will automatically have enemies and allies alike wherever he goes. He might technically be 'one of them', but that won't mean he's always welcomed with open arms.