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[open]A little question on company law. - Printable Version

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[open]A little question on company law. - Dartz - 08-25-2019

from: jet.jaguar@friggarock.fen
to: Lists.Jet.Stingray
Subject: A little question on company law.
Time: 12:35:43 - 2025/08/08 - Frigga

What happens to what's now a decent middle-size company when its owner never existed in the first place?

Or what happens if to Stingray Motor Engineering if Sylia Stingray never existed?

If it comes as news to you that I've been using the Sylia Stingray identity then - surprise. Sylia Stingray owns a business called Stingray Motor Engineering. It's a motorcycle manufacturer that was supposed to exist as a vehicle to pay some bills and support another project. All that mattered was that the management keep the company open and keep it working and producing. The aim was to make the business stable so it wouldn't randomly go away and spill its secrets, rather than make the most profit.

It was a front. If you know why Sylia Stingray existed you know what it was a front for. If you don't, it doesn't matter.

Anyway - it turns out that by hiring competent management, with well paid workers and building a good quality product, the business grows. An industrial unit in Shannon is now a factory in Shannon producing engines using 3D-metal printing. They're building aero-engines for old warbirds just to prove how flexible the technology is. Three years ago they bought a chunk of the old Packard plant in Detroit to manufacture in the US

It's now exporting and has become a UAW's flagship. They build electric bikes. The motorids for Asagiri are built there under contract. Stingray began using the fusion tuboshaft engines from those for other purposes. There's a big contract for those - a scary-big contract from a scary-big client. Those engines are useful for a lot of other industries, and Stingray holds the patent for another decade.

There's about a thousand people working in Detroit, and just a little less than that in Shannon. And every single one of them is relying on Sylia Stingray to be a real person to keep the lights on and keep the money coming in. They go to work every day and they do their shit and they get things made right and get a good stable paycheck out of it. Micheal bloody Moore just made a documentary there calling the whole thing a shining beacon of hope.

It'd be a shitty thing to let them drop in the wind and the moment this comes out, they're fucked and it'll all be my fault. This'll be an almighty mess for everyone if it comes out

How do I untangle this mess without blowing it all up?

-Jet Jaguar


Frigga 77 -  Stationpunk.

RE: [open]A little question on company law. - Matrix Dragon - 08-25-2019

from: ChrisWood@VoidShipping.fen
to: jet.jaguar@friggarock.fen
Subject: Re: A little question on company law.

Oh for the love of - JET! How many times do I need to tell you, always have the paperwork! Gods, you're lucky you didn't have someone Remington Steele you before now...

So, I've got the kids checking up on the various bits and pieces. Now, a (good?) angle to consider is that you're a Silver Millennium citizen. Back in the early days, some hopeful souls actually tossed in some provisions for secret identities in regards to 'vigilante work'. Of course, they were intended for operating the other way around, where the legal identity was the civilian and the not-on-paper one was the 'magical girl' in power armour, and of course it's the sort of kludged together nonsense that was the early days of fenspace, but it's there, and Ghost thinks it's worth a try, especially given the PR boost you got on Venus after catching The Asshole. Personally, I think he's being hilariously optimistic about a plan that requires you to come out and admit this publicly, but hey, it's there.

Big question, one that'll determine how we go from here. How much of a paper trail have you actually given 'Sylia' before now? A lot of companies, even in the US, tend not to pay too much attention to identity oddities from the fen, but if we can make her exist in some form, even as a pseudonym for an existing legal identity, we can clean this up.

- C

RE: [open]A little question on company law. - Dartz - 08-25-2019

from: jet.jaguar@friggarock.fen
to: Lists.Jet.Stingray; ChrisWood@VoidShipping.fen
Subject: A little question on company law.
As far as Marsbase Sara are concerned, Sylia Stingray is an AI that awakened about ten years ago and registered her existance. That's it as far as papwerwork goes. She's been paying dues on a small container in the west side of the old dome - out past Excelion's, but I don't think she's been there for a while.

Venusian Revenue will probably have a cat over it. The figures involved are amusing in the extreme. 

The issue really are the mundane powers.

Stingray America is owned by Stingray EU. Stingray EU licenses from Stingray Holding based in the ROI to take advantage of the taxes on IP holding in the jurisdiction. Stingray Mars owns both of them, and Sylia owns that on Mars. I think. I let the accountants worry about the details. I've got another 'organisation' called Whiz Mechatronics which keeps most of Asagiri's stuff on Mars from back before the Millenium and that's tied up with cross-licensing and equity to Stingray

Truth be told, I never expected Stingray to be more than a shed so I never bothered with figuring out the details of it.


Frigga 77 -  Stationpunk.

RE: [open]A little question on company law. - robkelk - 08-25-2019

from: pyrotechie@stellvia.fen
to: Lists.Jet.Stingray; jet.jaguar@friggarock.fen
Subject: A little question on company law.

Oh, boy.

Dad probably knows more about this than the rest of us combined - I'll toss this his way.


from: noah.scott@stellvia.fen
to: Lists.Jet.Stingray; jet.jaguar@friggarock.fen; pyrotechie@stellvia.fen
Subject: A little question on company law.

Venusian Revenue will *not* have a cat over this, as long as you've been paying the taxes. (If Sylia hasn't been paying her taxes... I don't want to hear, if that's the case.) For them, this is a simple name change. Getting that name change made all nice and legal is where you're going to have the headaches - especially since you represented Frigga in the Diet.

The Convention is pretty leinient about what Troubleshooters do in the course of shooting trouble. You did get a Troubleshooter license back in the day, right? Great Justice's legal team can help you flesh out your paper tiger into a real company. It'll cost, but not as much as hiring a lawyer yourself would.

Daneside... yes, there's probably an issue or two there. I have on retainer good lawyers who work in Canberra, Tokyo and DC, and I can lend you their services for a month - *after* you work things out Up here and you know what you need there. Other countries, you're on your own. I have no connections in Ireland.

-Noah Scott. (And please think about StelOil for everything your engines need, okay? The extra business will help pay for my 'Daneside lawyers.)

RE: [open]A little question on company law. - Dartz - 08-25-2019

from: jet.jaguar@friggarock.fen
to: Lists.Jet.Stingray; jet.jaguar@friggarock.fen
Subject: A little question on company law.

That is the crux of the problem. Sylia paid everything she owed to Marsbase Sara - Sylia owed nothing to the Millenium. Sylia owed very little to Marsbase Sara because most of the business happened off the base. Sylia owed very little to anybody because everything happened where it wouldn't be taxed. Sylia has good records of that because the company kept them to protect the company. Sylia's worth is totally in the value of the company - she never drew much of a salary down.

My work was always under the table - it had to be. My warrant card was my biggest souirce of income - everything else just sort of covered for it to make it all look like it could have a legit source to the Profetas of the universe. I never *had* to keep full records up until about two years ago and even then a lot of things stayed off them to hide them from eyes more dangerous than Revenue. It's a mess - but it's a tangled mees that kept the boskone from figuring it out. Sylia's more a real person than I am.

I didn't trust VR to keep the secrets. But more than a few spies have been brought down by spending obviously above their means.

I've been mulling over the idea of 'buying' it from Sylia, it seemed the neatest way of sorting it out, maybe as a quid-pro-quo to trade out some of the shares in the metals still held in Frigga intself but it'd look rediculous if I bought it for pennies on the dollar and that'd be a red flag to a bull for Revenue if they ever figure out the mess that's been created. I've been told in no uncertain terms how bad an idea that'd be.

I'll let you know when I've a plan sorted out - I'd apprecite a contact in the US - they're the most likely to kick up for sure - I can manage the Republic. I'm sure I can make up some extra fuel uses - we'd been planning to expand our machinery and a lot of it can easily be diesel powered. I can pick up some turbine gensets to 'cover for the dead reactor' and those'll need a lot fuel until we get the new cores completed.

I still don't know what to do with the thing if I do own it. It doesn't feel like winning the lotto. It's definitely a scary thing to have. Sylia was always accused by the UAW of being a person who owned for a living.


Frigga 77 - Stationpunk.

Note: Jet may not be entirely honest about how chaotic her personal finances are - she probably doesn't know exactly how messed up it is

RE: [open]A little question on company law. - LynnInDenver - 08-25-2019

from: lordandmaster@jmc.fen
to: Lists.Jet.Stingray; jet.jaguar@friggarock.fen
Subject: RE: A little question on company law.

Attachments: USLawyer.txt, FenRUnitFinancialProcessing.PDF

I think most of your problem with the US of A is probably going to be with regards to corporate taxes; I'll admit I'm probably a bit biased against them, they bounced me (and the company) around more than a little bit on that particular score before the treaty was finally signed. You're definitely going to want to get all the finances that you can mark in any way as legitimate accounted for (specifically as to where it was all earned and spent) before you go knocking on their door, although if it helps, the US tax lawyer I wound up using to help deal with our stuff at the time is still working in the field (we still actually use him), and is very Fen friendly.

Geo knows of a couple of financial processing consortiums that are capable of helping with the under-the-table stuff in terms of sorting it all out and giving it the air of legitimacy. Hopefully it won't require any actual laundering, so to speak, that's a little outside our field of knowledge.

Buying it off yourself might be an option, but it could raise red flags in terms of "where did she get into that kind of money", especially given the Frigga situation as it stands. I could see concerns with the insurance company wondering if an accident was some sort of scam, or worse, that there was an accident situation that could have actually been avoided but wasn't because money was allocated somewhere other than safety.

Compared to all that, the "who is legally who here" is a pretty minor concern. So many of us wound up having to deal with "multiple aliases" with various countries even after the treaty that there are procedures in place to deal with that, so even if they attempt to stonewall on who Sylia really is, they eventually do have to relent if you can show there's one person behind that identity, although it is going to depend a lot on what the identity was used for other than, "I wanted to do some corporate stuff without pulling my law enforcement activities into a potential spotlight".

I can relate to the "you just own for a living now" accusation. It's actually been cropping up more and more since we retired Starbug 1 from active service; I no longer really do personal courier runs even as favors, I've just no longer got the time to do it, and people are starting to forget that I forged my company with heaping helpings of my own blood and sweat.

RE: [open]A little question on company law. - Dartz - 08-26-2019

from: jet.jaguar@friggarock.fen
to: lordandmaster@jmc.fen
Subject: A little question on company law.

Thanks mate. I know they gave Ford a lot of trouble after she moved home - it's the stick they use to beat us when they're angry but can't do anything about it. It's not something I thought I'd ever have to worry about.

Stingray - it really is just owned. Sylia set the Snowball running and it just sort of grew on its own without any sort of pushing. It's one thing to 'run' a business and quite another to own one and do nothing but siphon out the cash because it just happened to be a success. The very idea offends against the soul.

I just don't want to be the dickhead who randomly dropped two thousand people out of a job because I felt uncomfortable.

Anyway untangling this is like trying to get the colours back out of a crushed ball of Mala. You know how it goes out in the belt? Asagiri needs to buy parts but a bills hasn't been paid - that's fine, just pull it from the Station's account - then made up the difference from my own pocket, before Asagiri's account pays my dues for the year and t all sort of balances it out.


Frigga 77 - Stationpunk.

RE: [open]A little question on company law. - Dartz - 09-14-2021

Everything in Balance.

It's the first law of accounting. Credits must equal Debits. That's the double entry rule. One Cancels the Other.

I recall a catfolk I saw strolling along the edge of a fence, one foot in front of the other as easy as you or I would walk on the pavement. Perfectly balanced.

It is the work of accountancy to bring order to chaos and I have not seen chaos such as this since Enron. It has taken weeks of investigation to scratch the surface of this financial melange. Thousands in Credits vanish from personal accounts to arrive in business accounts. Business accounts make payments on public projects. Public accounts make payments to personal in quantities which serve no obvious correlation to each other.

Frigga is in debt to Jet. Jet is in Debt to Frigga. Asagiri owes Frigga a sum far greater than both. All three make payments to a dozen mundane shell companies. Those companies owe Frigga, Jet and Asagiri a great deal of money in fees and administration.

By one mark, fantastically wealthy. By another, destitute. Money is simply taken from where it is available, to where it is required. None of it balances. Yet it all evens out. No invoice is ever overdue. At the same time, everything is insolvent.

I cannot sleep at night. I see nothing but chaos in my dreams. I see no solution. I see only the inspiration from that one catfolk on her fence

There is a dimension that may be missing from this, a second or third order to join the disparate parts together, but it forever escapes my grasp. And still the Crown Revenue demands my report with greater vehemency. I have not slept in days.

I am staring at the works of genius, or insanity.

And I fear they will drive me insane before my commission is complete. I see the shadow of something beyond financial reality and I must pursue it.

That balance.

I cannot forget that catfolk, and I know what I must do.

The door to the machine is open. And I must step inside. I see, I must become the cat.


The world is one formed from sound and scent, dimensions of awareness beyond the human. A cacophony of scent. A kaledoscope of sound.

The fence stretches before me and my feet find their place on it. It takes moments before my body steadies itself and I allow myself to be carried along. One foot in front of the other. The moment I stop, I wooble and struggle to catch myself. My tail provides a counterweight, a mass to damp the sway. It's then that it hits.

Balance is dynamic, rather than static. I am stable because I am moving and I keep moving and so long as I keep moving I can never fall.

The future and the past. The rates of change matter as much as the states today. It's not just position, but velocity and acceleration.

I can finally see it.

The past balances the future. The future balances the past.

So long as it keeps moving. So long as it is never stopped.

The epiphany comes to late.

I have been catfolk for three months now. My post now occupied by another - one who faces the same trial I did. I wish him luck. I no longer feel the urge to apply myself to anything beyond the now, and a life of redolent luxury and headpats.

Nyan Nyan, Catgirl fthaghn


(The last line added courtesy of a remark by BA in Discord. )

Probably not the best joke --- but this is the sort of non-euclidean finance that was supposed to keep the Prophetas of the universe guessing.