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+---- Thread: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII (/showthread.php?tid=13977)
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 12-29-2020
(12-28-2020, 10:02 PM)GethN7 Wrote:(12-28-2020, 06:30 PM)Bob Schroeck Wrote: ...Hm. I've been on, making edits, for the last couple-three hours, and I realize that the bogus account registration and bogus page creation rates are both way down. Hopefully this is not just a momentary lull and is actually evidence that StopForumSpam is working.
I don't doubt it's cut down quite a bit of it. Lots of spammers either set up multiple computers with bots as a zombie botnet that just spams constantly, and zombie botnets tend to be known forum spammers and easily killed off, or they try to hire black hats with their own botnets to contract out their spam, and those idiots also get caught in the dragnet too.
Either way, I'd give it few days to be sure.
We had another 60 spam posts yesterday (14:00 UTC - 14:00 UTC) - two-thirds of the daily average since we started using Moderation. Maybe it's working... but I want a few days to be sure, too.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 12-29-2020
Hmmmmm...
As near as I can tell, this page is a manually-maintained copy of this autogenerated page.
Is there any reason to keep both?
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - GethN7 - 12-29-2020
(12-29-2020, 03:23 PM)robkelk Wrote: Hmmmmm...
As near as I can tell, this page is a manually-maintained copy of this autogenerated page.
Is there any reason to keep both?
The Index Index allows us to keep things collated manually, the latter page simply keeps track of all categories, but lacks the drill-down features or manual editing of the other. The former makes doing jobs for cleanup easier because we can narrow them down via the subcategorization, while the latter just lists all categories no matter what without the built-in drill-down of the manual page.
The latter is also generated by the software without any human input, which means it would exist without any categories at all. A truly accurate count of all categories that are relevant to our site mission can only be reliably checked through the manual page, the autogenerated one includes categories that are for maintenance, or generated by certain extensions that may not exist once they are removed.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 12-29-2020
(12-29-2020, 03:35 PM)GethN7 Wrote:(12-29-2020, 03:23 PM)robkelk Wrote: Hmmmmm...
As near as I can tell, this page is a manually-maintained copy of this autogenerated page.
Is there any reason to keep both?
The Index Index allows us to keep things collated manually, the latter page simply keeps track of all categories, but lacks the drill-down features or manual editing of the other. The former makes doing jobs for cleanup easier because we can narrow them down via the subcategorization, while the latter just lists all categories no matter what without the built-in drill-down of the manual page.
The latter is also generated by the software without any human input, which means it would exist without any categories at all. A truly accurate count of all categories that are relevant to our site mission can only be reliably checked through the manual page, the autogenerated one includes categories that are for maintenance, or generated by certain extensions that may not exist once they are removed.
In that case, we had better start using subcategories.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - GethN7 - 12-29-2020
(12-29-2020, 07:30 PM)robkelk Wrote:(12-29-2020, 03:35 PM)GethN7 Wrote:(12-29-2020, 03:23 PM)robkelk Wrote: Hmmmmm...
As near as I can tell, this page is a manually-maintained copy of this autogenerated page.
Is there any reason to keep both?
The Index Index allows us to keep things collated manually, the latter page simply keeps track of all categories, but lacks the drill-down features or manual editing of the other. The former makes doing jobs for cleanup easier because we can narrow them down via the subcategorization, while the latter just lists all categories no matter what without the built-in drill-down of the manual page.
The latter is also generated by the software without any human input, which means it would exist without any categories at all. A truly accurate count of all categories that are relevant to our site mission can only be reliably checked through the manual page, the autogenerated one includes categories that are for maintenance, or generated by certain extensions that may not exist once they are removed.
In that case, we had better start using subcategories.
Already do. See the arrows next to categories in the Index Index? If it's blue, it means that category has subcategories. In fact, our trope/work pages do this by default. Unlike TV Tropes, MediaWiki was designed for allowing fine grained drill-down to narrow things to a specific range of items based on category tags since day one.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 12-29-2020
(12-29-2020, 08:04 PM)GethN7 Wrote:(12-29-2020, 07:30 PM)robkelk Wrote:(12-29-2020, 03:35 PM)GethN7 Wrote:(12-29-2020, 03:23 PM)robkelk Wrote: Hmmmmm...
As near as I can tell, this page is a manually-maintained copy of this autogenerated page.
Is there any reason to keep both?
The Index Index allows us to keep things collated manually, the latter page simply keeps track of all categories, but lacks the drill-down features or manual editing of the other. The former makes doing jobs for cleanup easier because we can narrow them down via the subcategorization, while the latter just lists all categories no matter what without the built-in drill-down of the manual page.
The latter is also generated by the software without any human input, which means it would exist without any categories at all. A truly accurate count of all categories that are relevant to our site mission can only be reliably checked through the manual page, the autogenerated one includes categories that are for maintenance, or generated by certain extensions that may not exist once they are removed.
In that case, we had better start using subcategories.
Already do. See the arrows next to categories in the Index Index? If it's blue, it means that category has subcategories. In fact, our trope/work pages do this by default. Unlike TV Tropes, MediaWiki was designed for allowing fine grained drill-down to narrow things to a specific range of items based on category tags since day one.
Allow me to re-phrase, then.
We should stop dumping everything into Index Index as a matter of course and actually use the subcategories we have. Individual Tropes should go under "Trope", not under "Index Index". Individual Works should go under "Work", not under "Index Index". (Or, better yet, works should go under their medium instead of Work, but baby steps to begin with.) Individual Useful Notes should go under ":Useful Notes", not under "Index Index". And so on. Leave Index Index for the top-level stuff and leverage what we have available to us that's built into MediaWiki.
Set up and use an actual category tree, instead of the kudzu that we have at the moment.
EDIT: Line so, as a bare-bones initial setup:
Index Index
+ Work
| + Advertising
| + Anime
| + Comic Books
| + Fan Works
| + Folklore
| + Film
| + Literature
| | + Magazines
| + Live-Action TV
| + Manga
| + Myths and Legends
| + Music
| | + Alternative Rock
| | + Ballads
| | + Heavy Metal
| | + New Wave
| | + Opera
| | + Punk Rock
| + New Media
| | + Podcasts
| + Newspaper Comics
| + Oral Tradition
| + Pinball
| + Professional Wrestling
| + Puppet Shows
| + Radio
| + Recorded and Stand Up Comedy
| + Religion
| + Tabletop Games
| + Theatre
| + Video Games
| | + 4X
| | + Action Adventure
| | + Action Game
| | + Adventure Game
| | + Beat'Em Up
| | + Edutainment Game
| | + Fighting
| | + First-Person Shooter
| | + Hack and Slash
| | + Mecha Game
| | + Miscellaneous Games
| | + Party Game
| | + Platform Game
| | + Point and Click Game
| | + Puzzle Game
| | + Puzzle Platformer
| | + Racing Game
| | + Rail Shooter
| | + Real Time Strategy
| | + Rhythm Game
| | + Roguelike
| | + Roleplay
| | | + Forum Roleplays
| | | + Journal Roleplay
| | | + Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game
| | | | + Cancelled Online Games
| | | + Strategy RPG
| | + Romance Game
| | + Shoot'Em Up
| | + Simulation Game
| | + Sports Game
| | + Strategy Game
| | | + Strategy RPG
| | + Survival Horror
| | + Third-Person Shooter
| | + Tower Defense
| | + Turn Based Tactics
| | + Turn-Based Strategy
| | + Visual Novels
| + Web Animation
| + Web Comics
| + Web Original
| + Western Animation
+ Trope
| + Abuse Tropes
| + Accidental Trope
| + Action Adventure Tropes
| + Advertising Tropes
| + Afterlife Tropes
| + Alternate History Tropes
| + Animal Tropes
| + Applied Phlebotinum
| + Artistic License
| + Authority Tropes
| + Bargain Tropes
| + Betrayal Tropes
| + Biology Tropes
| + British Media Tropes
| + Camera Tricks
| + Censorship Tropes
| + Characterization Tropes
| + Characters
| + Chekhov's Pun
| + Circus Index
| + Cleanliness Tropes
| + Combat Tropes
| + Comedy Tropes
| + Creator Speak
| + Crime and Punishment Tropes
| + Criticism Tropes
| + Death Tropes
| + Derivative Works
| + Dialogue
| + Did Not Do the Research
| + Distraction Tropes
| + Drama Tropes
| + Dueling Tropes
| + Elements of Nature
| + Emotion Tropes
| + Fame and Reputation Tropes
| + Family Tropes
| + Fandom
| + Fate and Prophecy Tropes
| + Food Tropes
| + Friendship Tropes
| + Furniture Tropes
| + Game Tropes
| + Genre Tropes
| + Genres
| + Geometry Tropes
| + Horror Tropes
| + Index Failure
| + Index in The Sky
| + Information Desk
| + Intelligence Tropes
| + Just for Fun
| + Language Tropes
| + Laws and Formulas
| + Lit Class Tropes
| + Literary Tropes
| + Locomotion Superindex
| + Logic Tropes
| + Love Tropes
| + Loyalty Tropes
| + Made of Index
| + Madness Tropes
| + Memory Tropes
| + Meta Concepts
| + Military and Warfare Tropes
| + Money Tropes
| + Morality Tropes
| + More Like a Footnote Than Anything Else
| + Motifs
| + Music and Sound Tropes
| + Narrative Devices
| + National Stereotyping Tropes
| + Networks
| + News Tropes
| + Number Tropes
| + Occupation Tropes
| + The Oldest Ones in the Book
| + Omnipresent Tropes
| + Paratext
| + Philosophy Tropes
| + Plots
| + Politics Tropes
| + Power
| + Psychology Tropes
| + Rape Tropes
| + Reality TV Tropes
| + Religion Tropes
| + Revenge Tropes
| + Rituals and Ceremonies
| + Royalty and Nobility Tropes
| + Scenes
| + School Tropes
| + The Secret Index
| + Sequential Art
| + Series Tropes
| + Settings
| + Shapes and Symbols Tropes
| + Show Business
| + Sociology Tropes
| + Spectacle
| + Speculative Fiction Tropes
| + Spoilered Rotten
| + Sports Story Tropes
| + Stupidity Tropes
| + Sturgeon's Tropes
| + Superhero Tropes
| + There Are No Indexes
| + This Index Does Not Exist
| + This Index Happened Offscreen
| + This Index Is in The Way
| + This Is Your Index On Drugs
| + This Might Be an Index
| + Time Tropes
| + Tiny Tropes
| + Trope Tropes
| + Tropes About Taboos
| + Tropes by Medium
| + Tropes in Space
| + Truth and Lies
| + Universal Tropes
| + Useful Notes
| + Vacation Tropes
| + Vehicle Tropes
| + Weather and Environment
+ Useful Notes
+ Just for Fun
I'm sure I've missed something obvious here.
Individual pages shouldn't be showing up until level three in the tree at the earliest.
And we could tweak this tree, too. Maybe put Comic Books, Newspaper Comics, and Web Comics all under a new "Sequential Art" supercategory? (EDIT: And rename our current category "Sequential Art" to "Sequential Art Tropes".) Put Web Animation, Western Animation, Eastern European Animation, and Anime under a new "Animation" supercategory?
EDIT: And while we're at it, clean up the level immediately under "Trope". Since when was Useful Notes a trope?
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - Bob Schroeck - 12-29-2020
Sooooo.... on another topic, everyone's favorite public masturbator XanderMartin98 just dropped me an incredibly arrogant email in which he basically claimed, Trump-like, that only he and he alone can save All The Tropes from some unspecified and no doubt entirely imaginary DOOOOOOOOM by solving the rampant grammar and usage errors we inherited from TV Tropes, and that it desperately needs the trope of his we nuked for its basic stupidity.
Naturally I shitcanned it, but geeze, just what I needed to come upon right before going to bed.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - Labster - 12-30-2020
(12-29-2020, 03:11 AM)Norgarth Wrote:
![[Image: fKqXoFs.jpg]](https://i.imgur.com/fKqXoFs.jpg)
Page image for Author Appeal, anyone?
Also I feel like maybe Video Phone needs a bit of a rewrite for 2020.
Good luck on the categories, Rob. I've spent many an hour trying to organize them. Index Index is not the place to start -- Top Index is the root node. As far as I can tell, Index Index is the container category for all of the works' and tropes' individual categories. It's not doing much except keeping those categories off of Special:UncategorizedCategories. And those categories are not doing much except keeping work subpages off of Special:UncategorizedPages.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - Bob Schroeck - 12-30-2020
Quote:Page image for Author Appeal, anyone?Seconded for both.
Also I feel like maybe Video Phone needs a bit of a rewrite for 2020.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 12-30-2020
(12-30-2020, 08:53 AM)Bob Schroeck Wrote:Quote:Page image for Author Appeal, anyone?Seconded for both.
Also I feel like maybe Video Phone needs a bit of a rewrite for 2020.
And thirded. But I just suggested anotehr big project, so I don't have time to write anything right now.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 12-30-2020
(12-29-2020, 01:49 PM)robkelk Wrote:(12-28-2020, 10:02 PM)GethN7 Wrote:(12-28-2020, 06:30 PM)Bob Schroeck Wrote: ...Hm. I've been on, making edits, for the last couple-three hours, and I realize that the bogus account registration and bogus page creation rates are both way down. Hopefully this is not just a momentary lull and is actually evidence that StopForumSpam is working.
I don't doubt it's cut down quite a bit of it. Lots of spammers either set up multiple computers with bots as a zombie botnet that just spams constantly, and zombie botnets tend to be known forum spammers and easily killed off, or they try to hire black hats with their own botnets to contract out their spam, and those idiots also get caught in the dragnet too.
Either way, I'd give it few days to be sure.
We had another 60 spam posts yesterday (14:00 UTC - 14:00 UTC) - two-thirds of the daily average since we started using Moderation. Maybe it's working... but I want a few days to be sure, too.
41 spam posts rejected yesterday (14:00 UTC - 14:00 UTC). We're getting close to as many spam posts in one day as we usually get in one month...
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - GethN7 - 12-30-2020
(12-30-2020, 10:01 AM)robkelk Wrote:(12-30-2020, 08:53 AM)Bob Schroeck Wrote:Quote:Page image for Author Appeal, anyone?Seconded for both.
Also I feel like maybe Video Phone needs a bit of a rewrite for 2020.
And thirded. But I just suggested anotehr big project, so I don't have time to write anything right now.
Fourthed.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 12-30-2020
(12-30-2020, 12:07 PM)GethN7 Wrote:(12-30-2020, 10:01 AM)robkelk Wrote:(12-30-2020, 08:53 AM)Bob Schroeck Wrote:Quote:Page image for Author Appeal, anyone?Seconded for both.
Also I feel like maybe Video Phone needs a bit of a rewrite for 2020.
And thirded. But I just suggested anotehr big project, so I don't have time to write anything right now.
Fourthed.
Image is up.
Somebody else gets to do the re-write.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - Bob Schroeck - 12-30-2020
I've done an initial pass on Author Appeal, but I've left the "unsorted" examples for someone else (or later, or both).
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - Labster - 12-31-2020
Just a reminder that the Miraheze fundraiser is going on now. So if you can spare a few bob, or maybe some quid, they'd appreciate it.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 12-31-2020
Already done. Since I'm involved with three wikis, two of which are routinely on the top 40 hosted at Miraheze, I chipped in substantially more than the suggested amount.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - Bob Schroeck - 12-31-2020
I'm going to have to wait until my next payday, but I'll certainly contribute something.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 01-01-2021
Revisiting a topic that we promised ourselves four months ago that we'd revisit.
Any suggestions for what page or pages to put these two quotes on?
{{quote|"MOM.<!-- all-caps in original text --> There’s nothing redeeming to be said about that show. Cuties sexualizes young girls and it’s completely inappropriate."
My teen daughters are spectacularly opinionated sometimes. I love that they have a strong sense of social justice and even stronger opinions that they are more than willing to share, but I have to challenge that when it seems like they are reacting to something they’ve heard instead of forming their own conclusions.
"But have you seen it?" I asked her this week.
"No, but I’ve seen the trailers and the debate online. Do NOT<!-- all-caps in original text --> write about it. It’s not worth it. The comments will be awful."
"But what if that’s exactly the problem? That people are forming judgements about it before actually seeing Cuties or understanding the message behind it?"
|Paula Schuck|"[https://www.cbc.ca/parents/learning/view/watched-netflix-movie-cuties-with-teen-daughter-she-has-four-words-for-it I Watched Netflix Movie Cuties With My Teen Daughter And She Has Four Words For It]", September 28, 2020}}
{{quote|If art is a reflection of society, and I believe this movie is, then what’s inappropriate is us, the audience, accepting that popular culture, social media, reality shows and music all get a pass on the images and videos they share.
|Paula Schuck|"[https://www.cbc.ca/parents/learning/view/watched-netflix-movie-cuties-with-teen-daughter-she-has-four-words-for-it I Watched Netflix Movie Cuties With My Teen Daughter And She Has Four Words For It]", September 28, 2020}}
I'd put the second quote onto the work page for the movie... if we had one.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 01-02-2021
Thinking of putting this image on Tropes Are Not Legos... unless there's a better page to put it on.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 01-02-2021
We have a new user... could somebody who's familiar with TVT check the pages that he or she has created, please? (I've already asked that this troper use the boilerplates for new pages.)
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - Bob Schroeck - 01-02-2021
(01-02-2021, 11:53 AM)robkelk Wrote: Thinking of putting this image on Tropes Are Not Legos... unless there's a better page to put it on.
Works for me. I think it illustrates the idea perfectly -- same tropes, different results.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - Bob Schroeck - 01-02-2021
(01-02-2021, 01:56 PM)robkelk Wrote: We have a new user... could somebody who's familiar with TVT check the pages that he or she has created, please? (I've already asked that this troper use the boilerplates for new pages.)
I'll do that in just a moment. In the meantime, I went to patrol their contributions, and discovered I'm no longer given the option. Which is weird, because I checked my group memberships and nothing has changed that I can see. Of course, I'm kind of clueless about the wiki management stuff, so maybe I'm not looking at the right place or settings... so could someone who actually knows what they're doing instead of going about thing by rote like me please check? Thanks.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - Bob Schroeck - 01-02-2021
And yeah, both pages were ripped word-for-word from TV Tropes.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 01-02-2021
(01-02-2021, 04:32 PM)Bob Schroeck Wrote:(01-02-2021, 01:56 PM)robkelk Wrote: We have a new user... could somebody who's familiar with TVT check the pages that he or she has created, please? (I've already asked that this troper use the boilerplates for new pages.)
I'll do that in just a moment. In the meantime, I went to patrol their contributions, and discovered I'm no longer given the option. Which is weird, because I checked my group memberships and nothing has changed that I can see. Of course, I'm kind of clueless about the wiki management stuff, so maybe I'm not looking at the right place or settings... so could someone who actually knows what they're doing instead of going about thing by rote like me please check? Thanks.
Odd... I didn't mark them as patrolled when I approved them in Moderation.
(01-02-2021, 04:34 PM)Bob Schroeck Wrote: And yeah, both pages were ripped word-for-word from TV Tropes.
Ah, well.
RE: All The Tropes Wiki Project, Part XVIII - robkelk - 01-02-2021
(01-02-2021, 04:29 PM)Bob Schroeck Wrote:(01-02-2021, 11:53 AM)robkelk Wrote: Thinking of putting this image on Tropes Are Not Legos... unless there's a better page to put it on.
Works for me. I think it illustrates the idea perfectly -- same tropes, different results.
It's up - with a caption inspired by one of the comments on the strip: 'What do you mean, "Luke or Harry"? This list describes Frodo!'