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- Bob Schroeck - 11-14-2013
Argh. Thank you to you, too, Geth. I'm sorry, it's just that Brent was the only visible face for so long...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Jorlem - 11-14-2013
Quote:GethN7 wrote:Ah, my apologies. I didn't realize categories were off limits at the moment. Do you need me to revert those two pages, or will the sentence I added just be automatically overwritten?Quote:JorlemThe site appears to be missing dedicated category pages, as most of the category links at the bottom of the pages are red. I noticed this while looking for an easy way to navigate around fanfic recs. Also, Fanfic Recs and Fan Fiction Recommendations are separate categories, for some odd reason. I've added a link to the main Fan Fic Recommendation page to both. Incidentally, the main Fan Fic Recommendation page has some broken 'hide' code, that I don't know how to fix. (Edit: Broken in that, while it hides or unhides the text block it controls, it also sends me to the top of the page, which I don't think is intended. Edit 2: Also, when I use the 'hide all' button, I can't unhide specific categories, as the 'hide/show' buttons are also hidden.)
Jorlem, I'm currently working on a solution to fill in all the categories in one go, so please don't edit any of the categories. I'm aware of the problem, and I'm almost done cobbling together a solution for it. Should be done in a day or so.
As for "SectionHide" code, I'm afraid our show/hide is imperfectly implemented. Part of that is due to how the SectionHide extension was written, and part of that is because of how sections are controlled in MW (there is no easy way to emulate how it was done on TVT at present)
-----
Stand between the Silver Crystal and the Golden Sea.
"Youngsters these days just have no appreciation for the magnificence of the legendary cucumber." --Krityan Elder, Tales of Vesperia.
- GethN7 - 11-14-2013
Bob - It's okay. No offense taken. Besides, Brent did most of the parser work needed to make the site a reality. I'm just the guy in the background who makes sure everything works properly in MediaWiki. In fact, while we might be co-founders and the wiki was founded in my name, I defer to Brent in regards to most policy issues, I'm just the techie. Still, thanks for the acknowledgement, and I'm just here to make sure you and everyone else can have fun troping
Jorlem- You're fine. Any changes will be automatically overwritten, so don't worry about it.
- GethN7 - 11-16-2013
The guys at Orain have been working on a more elegant solution to making all the categories nice and blue and useful for our purposes, so my original plan to mass create them all with a bot has been tabled.
Feel free to edit to your heart's content in the meantime.
- Labster - 11-16-2013
Yeah, me and the Orain admins basically ganged up on poor Geth to try to do something more "elegant". Us crazy software devs. Note that said "elegance" consists of tricking the software into thinking the categories are present when they're not, which is actually more hackish, but less DB entries means faster queries. So the default page will show all of the entries in the category, this can be overridden by actually making a category page. The good news is that we got a lot of help from our admins, and they seem to be rather on our side.
While there are still some formatting bugs, we are basically open for business. The remaining problems are minor: Many of the pages need differently-cased redirects, since we're now case sensitive. This is construed as a feature
. The image tags need cleaned up, and may need to be turned smaller (replace "frame" with "thumb" in the file link). References to TV Tropes need to be removed, rephrased, or noted as historical. And finally, are we still getting too many cats? I'm an admin so I don't notice these things.So what we need most of all now are editors. There are several kinds that we need to reach out to: Tropers who are disgusted with the current situation at TVT, Tropers who have already left TVT, and those who don't know that they're Tropers yet. For the first part, we're going to need Word of Mouth, Word of Forum, and Word of Blog. So if you have a place to post stuff, I'd kindly ask you to do so. I am going to try and post on my own blog tonight.
But I think the new users subset is a group that we can't ignore. We need to have some sort of gentle introduction to the site, explaining what a trope is and what some of the most common and fun tropes are. I'm afraid that we'll never be able to shed the fanspeak -- nor should we, because it's kinda fun. But we should try to be accessible at the same time. I suppose I should talk more about this on the actual wiki, because this is starting to seem like a hard problem. But yeah, feel free to introduce your friends to a brand new timesink, too.
Let me know if you have media contacts, too. I've never promoted a website that wasn't oriented around some geographic community, so this is new territory for me. All advice is appreciated. We are getting some attention -- ED, BTL, and TVT have all had discussions/edits about us without any involvement from me. So we're slowly moving through the back channels, and picking up 1-2 users a day. But I think we should move to forward channels.
-- ∇×V
- Bob Schroeck - 11-17-2013
I'm pretty much bouncing randomly through the wiki with "random page" and fixing anything I notice -- which includes TVT references. I also have local copies of a couple pages that need the TVT attitude expunged from them, and I'll get to those when I can.
As one of the cat complainers, I'll note that I haven't seen any cats in several days and I am very happy.
I'm curious about the discussions about us -- can you toss up the links?
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- GethN7 - 11-17-2013
Quote:Bob SchroeckI'm pretty much bouncing randomly through the wiki with "random page" and fixing anything I notice -- which includes TVT references. I also have local copies of a couple pages that need the TVT attitude expunged from them, and I'll get to those when I can.
As one of the cat complainers, I'll note that I haven't seen any cats in several days and I am very happy.
I'm curious about the discussions about us -- can you toss up the links?
http://beyondthelampshade.org/viewtopic ... start=3175
(fifth post from the bottom)
http://encyclopediadramatica.es/TV_Tro ... APPEARS.21
(includes commentary now deleted from TV Tropes)
- Bob Schroeck - 11-18-2013
Of course it's been deleted from TV Tropes.
Thanks.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Tennie - 11-18-2013
*Looks through the links GethN7 has helpfully provided*
...Well, it's started.
In any case, I know that TVT has a page listing "notable" instances in which it was referenced. ATT would do well to have a similar page for itself, if it doesn't have one already.
- nylor - 11-18-2013
I got permission from the mods on the StraightDope Messageboard to post information about the new site there.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... st16856889
- Bob Schroeck - 11-18-2013
Quote:nylor wrote:Love your handle there, nylor.
I got permission from the mods on the StraightDope Messageboard to post information about the new site there.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... st16856889
And it looks like there're questions for you to answer now:
Quote:How is the new site going to be supported? Granted, I'm not familiar with the issues here, but if the new site has a way to survive without Google, why couldn't the old site fund itself that way too?I have some ideas how to answer this, but it's not my thread.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Tennie - 11-18-2013
The solution to that would be to have nylor relay your ideas to the StraightDope thread. At least, that's what I'd do.
On another note, I just introduced my mother to ATT. Some years ago, I introduced her to TVT, and now she's learning of our new project. Only time would tell if she, too, becomes an ATTroper (or whatever we decide to call ourselves), as she's usually busy with other stuff and doesn't have much free time in order to actually participate in this kind of stuff. Nonetheless...
- nylor - 11-18-2013
Yup, I'd be happy to relay information provided here. But I'm about to dive back into that thread for the first round of answers.
- Bob Schroeck - 11-18-2013
Quote:Tennie wrote:
In any case, I know that TVT has a page listing "notable" instances in which it was referenced. ATT would do well to have a similar page for itself, if it doesn't have one already.
It does now.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Bob Schroeck - 11-18-2013
Quote:Tennie wrote:Actually, that was just a way for me to say I had some needlessly snarky comments that it would really be counterproductive to post. You could, though, let them know that ATT is running on a non-profit, donation-funded wiki farm. And that TVT is evidently making money for someone, and that they would rather censor than lose their income stream.
The solution to that would be to have nylor relay your ideas to the StraightDope thread. At least, that's what I'd do.
Oh, wait. That last bit was the snark.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Another Troper - 11-19-2013
Waitamoment, guys, I just had an idea:
Fast Eddie made a lot of drama when Geth told him that he can copy stuff from TV Tropes if it's from June 2012 or older. That was for wikia which is flooded with ads. Since then they have a different license that only allows non-commercial use.
But you said that ATT will never use ads. Doesn't that mean you can copy all you want from TVTropes?
I'm no lawyer, but it'd be pretty cool if we could copy the new movies and anime and such from them.
- Bob Schroeck - 11-19-2013
No, much better if we write our own articles from scratch, without ever having seen theirs. Yes, we are non-commercial. But there's no need to be dicks about it.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- GethN7 - 11-19-2013
Quote:Another TroperWaitamoment, guys, I just had an idea:
Fast Eddie made a lot of drama when Geth told him that he can copy stuff from TV Tropes if it's from June 2012 or older. That was for wikia which is flooded with ads. Since then they have a different license that only allows non-commercial use.
But you said that ATT will never use ads. Doesn't that mean you can copy all you want from TVTropes?
I'm no lawyer, but it'd be pretty cool if we could copy the new movies and anime and such from them.
Legally speaking, the reason we cannot and will not use material from TV Tropes from July 2012 or later is twofold:
1. Content from TV Tropes up until July 2012 was CC BY SA licensed. Anything afterwards in not compatible with our own license in terms of reuse and redistribution, since you can't just switch licenses on people without their consent, which is a violation of Creative Commons licensing which bring us to-
2. We, frankly, aren't entirely sure if Fast Eddie's sudden change of licensing is legal, at least in the manner he did so. Generally, changing the license for an entire site that was using one license is no easy changeover, since the contributors must consent to the change and the content must allow for such a changeover.
In this case, it's highly possible what Fast Eddie did may have been illegal under CC, since he did the change without gaining the consent of his userbase, and the operative word in Creative Commons Share Alike Attribution is "Share Alike", which means the content can be redistributed only under the same or similar license.
Wikipedia obtained a special dispensation to dual license their content under the GDFL and CC BY SA, but as far as we know, TV Tropes never obtained a legal go ahead to just up and switch their entire content base from CC BY SA to CC BY NC SA, especially with no prior notice to their contributors.
Due to this, since the legality of what he did is highly questionable, we're trying to avoid any legal hassle ourselves should it turn out the license changeover TV Tropes used was not legally valid, and thus we be tainted by association with content whose legality is uncertain.
- Tennie - 11-19-2013
One question that I have is: What would happen if someone were to write an entry on an ATT page, and then copy/paste said entry into the corresponding TVT article? Could that user get away with it, or could we expect a row between the administrations of ATT and TVT over that? I ask because, if possible, I want to make some additions to some articles on both TVT and ATT. If the answer is negative, then I just might have to stick to ATT.
- robkelk - 11-19-2013
I would strongly recommend not doing that. There's no reason to purposefully kick the hornet's nest.
On a semi-related note, I just added this paragraph to the start of "Orphaned/Sandbox/Pages Cut Under the Policy Change" and "Permanent Red Link Club":
Quote:Important Note: This page applies to the editorial policies of [[The Other Tropes Wiki], and does not necessarily reflect the editorial policies of All The Tropes.Feel free to use it on other pages where it applies.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Bob Schroeck - 11-19-2013
Hey, Brent... why does the "Popular Articles" list on the main page not match the one on the Statistics page? Different code, filtering out some class(es) of pages, something like that? Just curious.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- GethN7 - 11-19-2013
I can answer that. The "Popular Articles" section is based on information from the 'Dynamic Page List" extension, which does not rely on information that has been cached (the statistic page information), but rather on the most views of certain pages have received in real time.
For this reason, there will be discrepancies between the two.
- Tennie - 11-19-2013
robkelk Wrote:I would strongly recommend not doing that. There's no reason to purposefully kick the hornet's nest.
Well, I was not intending to kick over a hornet's nest. The reason I asked was in reference to some entries on the "Start My Owm" article, specifically under the "Web Original" section, that dealt with TVT and its spinoffs. I wanted to mention the fact that ATT exists, since it fits the circumstances of the trope much like the other entries.
I at first thought of posting it first on TVT, decided against it, and then decided to ask to see if something like what I asked would be a "better" (relatively speaking) option. Would mentioning ATT in the context that I just talked about be okay? I would hope so, at any rate, unless things have changed to render that idea impractical...
- Bob Schroeck - 11-19-2013
Tennie, regardless of what TVT claims its policies are, Fast Eddie holds grudges and has no compunctions about stalinzing things he doesn't like and banning people who remind him of them. If you do it, it's pretty much guaranteed that your contribution will disappear, as will your access.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Bob Schroeck - 11-19-2013
Quote:GethN7 wrote:Thanks. I thought it might be something along those lines.
I can answer that.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.