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+--- Thread: Dogfight: Long Odds (/showthread.php?tid=9891)
Dogfight: Long Odds - ordnance11 - 07-29-2009
I'm watching through the History Channel's "Dogfight" series and the "Long Odds" episode is definitely a favorite episode.
Especially the part concerning the dogfight of Stanley "Swede" Vejesta (VS-5) flying a SBD-3 dive bomber against 3 Zeros. 25 minutes (an eternity) of
dogfighting....and downing all 3 Zeros. The last one by accidental ramming. He later got transferred to fighters aboard the Enterrpise. His encore performance
was on 26 October' 42 during the Battle of Santa Cruz. Shot down 2 fighters and 5 torpedo bombers in a single day. Definitely awe inspring.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
RE: Dogfight: Long Odds - Logan Darklighter - 07-29-2009
Here's a link to the first part of Dogfights: Long Odds. (Parts 2-5 are easy to find in the related videos and sidebars.)
And agreed. That display of skill is amazing.
The Flight of Old 666 is almost as amazing for the sheer courage involved. There was a certain amount of finesse involved in that one too, but mostly just
stubbornness of the "We might die, but you're going to PAY for every last ounce of blood!" variety! And the firepower of a refurbished,
over-gunned B-17 Flying fortress. (19 guns where the usual load of 13 guns. Dual mounts and an extra fixed mount in the nose)
- ordnance11 - 07-29-2009
Truly, no better case of "Die Hard" cannot be found in the case of Old 666. Over gunning the B-17 did help
them a lot. Since they were flying solo, the crew needed evry advantage they can get. Also, I belive the Japanese inexperience on how to take on the B-17
helped. If they went for mass head-on attacks like the Germans did, they probably would had brought down Old 666.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
- Black Aeronaut - 07-30-2009
According to the Wikipedia article I looked that, they did. Several times. Only to find that the forward section had a lot more gun than other B-17s. (^_^)
- Rod.H - 07-30-2009
blackaeronaut Wrote:According to the Wikipedia article I looked that, they did. Several times. Only to find that the forward section had a lot more gun than other B-17s. (^_^)Everywhere had a lot more gun!
- DHBirr - 07-30-2009
When I see the words "dive bomber" paired with "downing all 3 Zeros" I'm automatically impressed, even before reading anything else.
Hell, for a Navy bomber in 1942 to down one Zero would impress me.
As for Old 666, she seems to have been almost like an aerial Q-ship. But I didn't see anything about what those extra guns and ammunition did to her range
and/or bomb-load.
-----
Big Brother is watching you. And damn, you are so bloody BORING.
- Logan Darklighter - 07-30-2009
They may have affected her bomb load. But on this mission, that point was moot. As they were doing a mapping and recon mission. It was important because the
marines were going to be landing on beaches of the island a couple of days later and they had to have info on terrain and placement of the enemy forces. I
guess they didn't have fighter escort because (a) that would've been an even bigger target and drawn more opposition, or (b) they simply couldn't
spare any.
- firvulag - 07-30-2009
They didn't have a fighter escort because the fighters didn't have enough range.
--
The European Air War manual had a fun section on "The plane as a projectile weapon", including
such fun advice as "just before impact, start spinning the aircraft as this makes a better display".
- ECSNorway - 07-30-2009
Quote:They didn't have a fighter escort because the fighters didn't have enough range.
True. This was, in fact, why they adopted the high-altitude large formation arrangement, with large numbers of machine-guns per plane, so that they could self-escort. And why the P-51 Mustang was so important - it was the first plane with the legs for the job.
What really got scary was the long stretches of the Atlantic where convoys didn't have air escorts... it's one reason why the Brits built disposable cat-launch planes for their merchies, and part of why we built so many 'jeep' carriers....
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
RE: Dogfight: Long Odds - Logan Darklighter - 07-30-2009
Excellent point. I keep forgetting about the ranges involved in the Pacific. They are almost always enormous. For some reason I remember the ranges when it
comes to the European theater much better. I guess it's because the maps and diagrams I've seen typically illustrated things against a backdrop that
was easier to grasp. The Thunderbolts can only go THIS far before turning back, the Mustangs could go all the way to Berlin and back, etc.
Speaking of the Thunderbolts, or "Jugs", did anyone see the episode of Dogfights that was centered on them? Good GOD what a monster of a plane!
Didn't have nearly the range of the Mustang of course, but in all other respects was a great dogfighter. Incredibly tough. That episode (among other
stories) told of a "Jug" pilot who nearly got shot out of the sky before recovering and as he's limping back home, is attacked by a Focke Wolfe.
He can't do ANYTHING to fight back because the plane can barely fly in a straight line and he can't bail out because the canopy is stuck.
The Focke Wolfe Pilot used ALL HIS AMMO on that plane and COULD NOT KILL IT. He finally had to give up and fly away. The Thunderbolt pilot made it home alive
and relatively ok.
Oh hey - here's a link to the footage I mentioned.
RE: Dogfight: Long Odds - ordnance11 - 08-01-2009
Quote: Logan Darklighter wrote:The jug pilot got lucky there...the Focke Wulf used up his cannon ammo before and he wasn't going for a head on pass.
Excellent point. I keep forgetting about the ranges involved in the Pacific. They are almost always enormous. For some reason I remember the ranges when it
comes to the European theater much better. I guess it's because the maps and diagrams I've seen typically illustrated things against a backdrop that
was easier to grasp. The Thunderbolts can only go THIS far before turning back, the Mustangs could go all the way to Berlin and back, etc.
Speaking of the Thunderbolts, or "Jugs", did anyone see the episode of Dogfights that was centered on them? Good GOD what a monster of a plane!
Didn't have nearly the range of the Mustang of course, but in all other respects was a great dogfighter. Incredibly tough. That episode (among other
stories) told of a "Jug" pilot who nearly got shot out of the sky before recovering and as he's limping back home, is attacked by a Focke
Wolfe. He can't do ANYTHING to fight back because the plane can barely fly in a straight line and he can't bail out because the canopy is stuck.
The Focke Wolfe Pilot used ALL HIS AMMO on that plane and COULD NOT KILL IT. He finally had to give up and fly away. The Thunderbolt pilot made it home alive
and relatively ok.
Oh hey - here's a link to the footage I mentioned.
There were a couple of problems deploying land based-fighters for offensive operations in the Pacific theater during WW II. One of them is range. The P-38 or
the P-51 were the only birds in the U.S inventory with the legs. The other problem is long range over the water navigation. It wasn't much of a problem
during the early stages of the war where you have island landmarks inbound or outbond to target. It became a problem much later when you have a 700 mile round
trip from Iwo Jima to Japan over open water.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell