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robkelk Wrote:GethN7 Wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, it's rare I consider invoking the waving of this particular sword, but this is starting to not only piss me off, but it worries me considering the stability and security of our continued hosting on Miraheze.
Therefore, I want to make it clear if this situation continues, I believe our continued future with Miraheze is in heavy doubt.
I speak for myself alone at this point, but I wanted to make it clear this situation concerns me that greatly.
I will add to this: Wherever the All The Tropes wiki is hosted, the Poser and Daz Studio Free Resources wiki will follow.
These are the two largest public English-language wikis currently on Miraheze, so their presence or absence should be obvious. I'm not sure it would bode well for Miraheze that it would then basically just be a host for a couple of decent size Chinese wikis, some abandoned archives (apple, 8station), a wikipedia knockoff (multilingual), and a whole host of abandoned ones that never seem to take off.
But maybe I'm being too harsh or something idk.
I would prefer this situation would be resolved without us leaving, but either way, even with myself not being a natural troper, I have found my experience good enough to not give a shit as long as we find somewhere that can support our needs and differentiations from TVT.
EDIT: John decided to post on my userpage:
http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:Timbo4hxg9mcqkk2
I'll let you guys read it with no further comment for me because I'm not in the game of trying to skew it. Also the RfC got closed with Proposal 1 passed.
For the record none of the changes actually affect stewards ability to do anything, merging those PRs just sate DQ.
If those requests affected stewards without consensus regarding stewards policy, they would not be affected.
so far, requests merged have only affected DQ's wiki(s). Even changing user rights and block settings on that wiki don't really change anything, as stewards are part of a global user group that overrides local groups in every aspect. If needed, stewards can add any permissions to themselves globally and use them on DQ's wikis.
and all of this (which should show these changes aren't a problem yet) doesn't even account for the fact that every Steward is on the Ops team with complete database access.
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Thank you, NDKilla - that is information about Miraheze internals that I was not aware of.
Also, welcome to this forum.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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NDKilla Wrote:For the record none of the changes actually affect stewards ability to do anything, merging those PRs just sate DQ.
If those requests affected stewards without consensus regarding stewards policy, they would not be affected.
so far, requests merged have only affected DQ's wiki(s). Even changing user rights and block settings on that wiki don't really change anything, as stewards are part of a global user group that overrides local groups in every aspect. If needed, stewards can add any permissions to themselves globally and use them on DQ's wikis.
and all of this (which should show these changes aren't a problem yet) doesn't even account for the fact that every Steward is on the Ops team with complete database access.
This was information that would have been useful to know earlier, thanks for clearing that up, and welcome to the forums as well.
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I appreciate NDKilla for signing on and bringing a more concillatory approach.
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Likewise. Welcome to the forums, NDKilla.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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Oh, just let me add something for John's sake, since he is presumably still reading this thread. Please do not mistake the brevity of my vote for a rubber-stamp "me, too". Even though I have been at work, in the middle of a production push for the website I work at/on, I took the time to read everything relevant to the issue and to look through the tickets before thinking on the issues and adding my voice.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
For the record I will try to act as a mediary if requested, and I will try not to act rash, but I do agree with what John says, at least when it comes to Miraheze being community driven.
For better or worse, if anyone tries to turn Miraheze into a dictatorship I will be resigning my Steward rights and refusing to support the site as an Ops member.
That said I ask the community (Miraheze at large, and ATT users) to help resolve this issue as reasonably and quickly as possible, and with no volunteers leaving the project if possible.
Both John and Labster contribute a lot to Miraheze in different ways, and I hope that ALL USERS realize the project as a whole would be very negatively impacted if labster or John chose to stop contributing.
That said, I would like John and labster to work out any issues between each other and anyone else (DQ, anyone) in as peaceful a manner as possible, using intermediaries (please not me) if required to do so.
If this can not be resolved peacefully by themselves then I ask anyone (involved or not) to create an RfC on Meta wiki proposing alternative solutions (banning DQ, labster leaving, John leaving, any other ideas).
I will voice my personal opinion whenever I feel it needs to be heard but otherwise please believe that I have Miraheze and the communities best interests at heart.
In the spirit of full disclosure, I figured anyone here not aware of *the entire situation* should know that DeltaQuad and all socks were previously globally locked, and I initiated the process of unlocking one account on the understanding they were forbidden from having any other accounts. I really don't want to see any active users leaving, especially people that contribute to Miraheze as a whole and not just their wikis.
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I think we're all agreed that being community driven is a good thing - some of ATT's reasons are given at att:All The Tropes:Why Fork TV Tropes. We've had bad experiences with ... let's call it "top-down management".
I think we're also agreed that a complete democracy won't work; the spammers and control-freaks would outvote the contributors, and Miraheze as a whole would suffer for it. The tyranny of the majority is at least as bad as "top-down management" is.
Where the line should be drawn between the two extremes is, of course, up for debate. I like where it had been drawn by the Miraheze Stewards, and it'll take quite a bit of convincing to get me to change my opinion on how much power the Stewards should have.
And a personal note: John, I for one would welcome your participation in this forum.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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I guess the problem here is that I don't know what a resolution between us would look like. John says he thinks have dictatorship as an ideal. This is not true, but that's kind of besides the point. I was in the process of creating a nonprofit organization. And if John and I can't trust each other, we shouldn't be on the board together. If John isn't on the board, it's a dictatorship. If I'm not in the board, you're not going to be a California corporation unless someone else steps up. And if we're not incorporated, there's no way I'd be willing to assume personal legal liability on behalf of people who hate me. Which leaves the likeliest alternative: my leaving Miraheze leadership.
So while leaving Miraheze is not something I want to do, right now it's kind of the default option, unless someone steps up and shows leadership.
-- ∇×V
Yay for having a profile picture my friend drew.
Anyways, yeah. I guess I'm just figuring out what people should do and it's really all depressing at the moment.
Ive created this page and invite anyone reading this to please comment there but seriously please try not to keep anything burning.. i'd like everyone to help figure out how Miraheze can move forward without losing anyone. Feel free to comment on existing sections or create new ones
http://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User_tal ... /moving_on
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I added a comment in one area. This is an interesting idea. I'm relatively new to this forum too NDK so this isn't just you.
I see Geth already made his comments. I'll let others chime in too.
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Congrats to DeltaQuad, our newly promoted wiki creator. NDKilla decided to grant the right to DeltaQuad today.
I sure wish the libraries behind my bot started working again. Trying to combine categories without adding extra text is harder with MassEditRegex. /(?s)[[Category:Image Links(?: Wiki)?]
(.*?)[[Category:Image Links(?: Wiki)?]/ In my bot, it would just be $page->remove_category('Image Links Wiki'); $page->add_category('Image Links');
-- ∇×V
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I see DQ temp-banned Southparkfan on DQ's wiki...
This isn't at the point where DQ should be invited to find a different wiki host, and it probably will never get to that point ... but I can't help but think that that would be best all around. That shows I'm starting to take this whole mess personally. So I'm out. If there's any comments on the rest of NDKilla's proposals that somebody thinks I should read, please bring them to my attention.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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On a sidenote, I recently bought the humble bundle for gamedevs, and this meant I got Todoist Premium for one year.
http://todoist.com/comparePlans
Apparently this means I can basically invite you all into a project which you guys can use as a productivity manager.
Are any of you interested in such a use?
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Interesting, but I don't have a purpose for such a thing right now. Thanks, though.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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robkelk Wrote:I see DQ temp-banned Southparkfan on DQ's wiki...
There's a lot of aspects to this that I don't entirely understand, but this part is quite alarming. Banning people who haven't engaged in any malfeasance because they've disagreed with you elsewhere is an obvious abuse of power that would lead to one being an ex-mod in any community I'm comfortable being a part of. (Why hello there, chilling effects!)
On the other side, I'm also uncomfortable with the way the DQ/Amanda thing is playing out. It's looking like a bit of a Morton's Fork: They could be the same person, so they can only have one account. But they could be different people, so them using the same account is bad. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
And demanding ID or phone calls or what have you is simply inappropriate. If DQ and Amanda are the same person, having two accounts doesn't seem like it would be such a danger that you can't offer some benefit of the doubt and allow them to each have an account under the presumption that they are different people. With some caveats involving things where one or the other should recuse themselves as a potential conflict of interest of course.
ETA: Also, Rob, it looks like your last edit to that discussion got accidentally overwritten. (Why hello, reason why I don't like trying to use a wiki page like a discussion forum.)
-Morgan.
-Morgan.
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They could be the same person but if you believe DeltaQuad, we have a situation where two sisters and a cousin all: - are interested in running wikis
- are capable of making pull requests on GitHub
- live in the same house
- use browsers that have the exact same user agent (one desktop, one mobile)
- believe strongly enough in wiki independence from its farm to request extensions that break the farm's user privilege model
- decide to delete wikis entirely when things don't go their way (MatthewPW and DeltaQuad)
- ban global stewards from their wiki for unrelated actions on another wiki (Amanda and DeltaQuad)
With an additional caveat that after MatthewPW left the farm for not getting an independent enough wiki. And then other people living with him decided, "hey, let's use the same wiki farm but while still trying to convince them to do things that my cuz couldn't convince them to do." Moreover, what about the 6 other accounts at the same IP with the same user agents?
So, Morganite, what do you think the probability of them all being the same person is?
-- ∇×V
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Bob wants a page deleted regarding a TVT in-joke. Main reason I'm linking is because this conversation has also become about what exactly content do we actually have on ATT. F
http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:Tipfh0ugbmppv9g2
For the record, I believe in the principle ATT set up of Academic freedom, and that includes cases of art with extreme political views, however this particular page is of a non-existent work and that seems to be more of a dig at Disney than it is trying to actually make a point. Also it's actually pretending it's real, which could actually be a possibility of legal hot water.
I also don't agree with Brent's point that it's hate speech, it's just your average shock humour. I know I would say that being an ED admin, but still.
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Morganite Wrote:...
ETA: Also, Rob, it looks like your last edit to that discussion got accidentally overwritten. (Why hello, reason why I don't like trying to use a wiki page like a discussion forum.)
-Morgan.
-Morgan. (goes and looks at the page)
(goes and looks at the page logs)
(discovers the only person to edit the page since me is DQ)
(goes to edit the page to put the comment back in)
(discovers the page has been deleted)
(does not see an update to the Delete Log, so cannot tell who deleted the page)
This looks suspicious.
Since all the Meta Stewards read this forum, this should suffice as a trouble report - especially if the page was deleted by somebody who has access to the delete function on Phabricator.
Most recent version of the page before deletion: http://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?t ... ldid=17497 Copy saved locally in HTML format.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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It doesn't look deleted from here? Even tried looking in a different browser, still there.
-Morgan.
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http://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?t ... /moving_on
"There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or create this page. "
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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robkelk Wrote:http://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?t ... /moving_on
"There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or create this page. "
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Okay... PEBKAC.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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