"It's always too soon to talk about gun control"

[robkelk]

It is bleak.

Definitions of terms in the Constitution can change (look at how "people" changed from white males to whites to all humans, for example) but it takes a long time (look at how long it took for "people" to change from white males to whites to all humans, for example).


And I'll repeat myself:

I've made this offer in the past, I'll make it again here. If any of the regular posters want permanent residency in Canada, I'll help you navigate the paperwork. Please note that there is no constitutional guarantee to possess arms in Canada.

[robkelk]

Let's not arm teachers, m'kay?

Georgia teacher in custody after firing gun at school

[DHBirr]

A tweet quoted in this article from the Washington Post caught my eye.  The originator, Jackie Calmes, is cited as an editor for the L.A. Times:

Jackie Calmes @jackiekcalmes

For Trump, Obama is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't: 
In this mtg with lawmakers on guns, Trump tells Sens. Toomey & Manchin they cldn't pass their 2013 background check bill because Obama didn't give support. They said Obama did help. Trump: "Well, there's your problem."
3:24 PM - Feb 28, 2018

Now THAT'S trying to have it both ways....

[hazard]

Worse; that meeting was televized. They have it on tape.

Not that Trump's credibility was all that high in the first place, but it should be becoming increasingly clear to even the Republican Party that Trump is just impossible to work with.

[LynnInDenver]

And some have been trotting out the old strawman "BUT THE VIDEOGAMES AND OUR KIDS" again. Trump, at least, was putting in some lip regarding violence in other media when he did it, but still. It even includes another attempt to "tax the rated mature games to pay for mental health care". Guys, we've DONE this dance before, you're going to need a LOT more clinical data that's pointing to a direct and absolute link between playing a game that happens to have violence in it, and proceeding to use violence much more readily, in order to get anything to stick.

[hazard]

We have a fair bit of research about that actually. I don't know where to find them, but apparently, violent crime statistics show a notable but not large dip shortly after a popular violent videogame was published.

[robkelk]

Reset

2 fatally shot at Central Michigan University

[hazard]

Huh, that was what, 3 weeks?

Longer than usual this year.

[robkelk]

For a school shooting, yes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sc...ates#2010s

[SilverFang01]

A list of all the near misses we have had since Parkland. Be aware that this is only a partial list:


School threats since Parkland:

Hitchcock, TX: 18-year-old student threatened to turn school into “another Florida"

Brethren, MI: 17-year-old arrested after sheriff received tip that the student threatened to attack his high school. A semiautomatic rifle was found in his home.

Shorewood Hills, WI: A father entered child’s school and gave a teacher a note with the word “gun” written on it to raise concerns about school security

Orono, MN: High school student wrote in Twitter post: “Orono is not safe. Today at 12:00 I will shoot up the school myself”


Whittier, CA: A school employee heard a 17-year-old student telling a classmate, “I guarantee you the school will be shot up in three weeks”

Arlington, TX: Two 16-year-olds were arrested after scrawling on a wall and writing online that they were planning to attack their school

Whittier, CA: A school employee heard a 17-year-old student telling a classmate, “I guarantee you the school will be shot up in three weeks”

Arlington, TX: Two 16-year-olds were arrested after scrawling on a wall and writing online that they were planning to attack their school

Jackson Township, OH: A 7th grader shot and killed himself inside a school restroom; he had planned a mass shooting but changed his mind

Rowlett, TX: 17 year old arrested for sitting in his car outside of high school event with a semiautomatic rifle and 100 rounds of ammunition

Spartanburg, SC: A 9th grader posted a photo showing an assault rifle with the words "round 2 of Florida tomorrow"

Arlington, TX: 13 year old arrested after he told other students he wanted to shoot up the school and mentioned guns

Plano, TX: 16 year old boy arrested for possession of a handgun after a high school resource officer investigated an anonymous tip that a student brought a handgun to campus

Sugar Hill, GA: A high school student was arrested after being found with a gun on campus


West Palm Beach, FL: Police arrested a student who brought two guns to his high school

Flower Mound, TX: Police arrested a 16-year-old at his high school after officers found a small-caliber handgun in his backpack

Collier County, FL: Officers found a note in an 18 year old's backpack that threatened to, "shoot up school," along with a list of names of students. The list contained a drawing of a student with bullet holes to the chest

Elkhorn, NE: 17 year old student wrote in a classmate's notebook that a school shooting would happen on a certain date using his parent's gun

Tulsa, OK: Police arrested 23 year old man who made threats against area schools; they recovered guns and ammo from his home

West Haven, CT: 14 year old student charged after he made threats against staff and displayed pictures of guns

Rutland, VT: 18 year old told authorities he wanted to cause "mass casualties" at local school; police recovered his shotgun and ammo and books about Columbine shooting

Skowhegan, ME: A social media post showed an image of an AR-15 accompanied by a threat, “Skowhegan, February 28, 2018 you’re all DEAD”

Vadnais Heights, MN: A 13 year old and his parents were arrested after he made a threat and negligently stored guns were recovered from his home


Everett, WA: Authorities arrested an 18 year old who was said to be planning an mass shooting inside a school; the alleged plan was foiled by his grandmother

Durham, CT: Troopers arrested a high school student for threatening violence and insinuating a school shooting

[hazard]

... I'm counting 12 instances where a gun was already available to the individual making the threat, and the only reason the Jackson Township school shooting didn't happen was because the individual planning it changed his mind at the last moment. And 24 instances total (I'm disregarding the Shorewood Hills one).

That's not an average of 1 per school day, that's 1 per day. And the most common perpetrator is a student, or someone in that age range.

[robkelk]

Moving off-campus, somebody is taking potshots at buses on I-280

[hazard]

That may just be a result of poor road maintenance leaving gravel that can be kicked up and into people's windscreens. May.

[robkelk]

If that was the case, then vehicles other than buses would also be affected.

[SilverFang01]

The NRA is suing FL for approving a law to raise the age someone can buy a gun from 18 to 21.
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2...412365002/

[robkelk]

The NRA is suing FL for approving a law to raise the age someone can buy a gun from 18 to 21.
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2...412365002/

So, what was the result of the lawsuit filed eariler in the same district regarding people under 18 not being able to buy a gun? I expect that either a precedent has already been set, or the NRA is just as guilty of ageism in not bringing such a suit to court in the past and thus has no basis for bringing this suit.

EDIT: Oh, and isn't there a law saying a US government cannot be sued unless it agrees to be sued? Or is that just at the federal level?

[robkelk]

Reset

Four dead in a California veterans' home.

[SilverFang01]

EDIT: Oh, and isn't there a law saying a US government cannot be sued unless it agrees to be sued? Or is that just at the federal level?

From Wikipedia and other places:

State sovereign immunity does not extend to cases where a plaintiff alleges the state's action is in violation of the federal or state constitution. In Department of Revenue v. Kuhnlein, the Florida Department of Revenue claimed that sovereign immunity prevented plaintiffs from bringing a case that alleged that a tax violated the Commerce Clause and, furthermore, that if the tax was unconstitutional, the refund request could not be given because it did not comply with state statutes for tax refunds. The Florida Supreme Court rejected those arguments, stating: "Sovereign immunity does not exempt the State from a challenge based on violation of the federal or state constitutions, because any other rule self-evidently would make constitutional law subservient to the State's will. Moreover, neither the common law nor a state statute can supersede a provision of the federal or state constitutions."

Could it succeed? Well, the 2nd amendment has been interpreted so broadly that it may. I've been reading up on it, including Federalist 29, and 46, and barely can make heads or tails of how we went from militias under Congress and State control to whatever interpretation allows people to assert that any kind of regulation is impossible.

[robkelk]

Reset - almost, but only because there's only one fatality.

Officer down in Pomona, CA.

---

AP: U.S. Justice Department moves to ban rapid-fire bump stocks

[SilverFang01]

Reset the clock: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/marylan...story.html

[Rajvik]

And gee, the ARMED RESOURCE OFFICER stopped the shooting at TWO INJURED and only the shooter dead

maybe having those "Evil" cops and their even more "Evil Guns" in your school is a good thing [extrmsrcsm]

[robkelk]

And gee, the ARMED RESOURCE OFFICER stopped the shooting at TWO INJURED and only the shooter dead

maybe having those "Evil" cops and their even more "Evil Guns" in your school is a good thing [extrmsrcsm]

Perhaps you missed my earlier post:

Let's not arm teachers, m'kay?

Georgia teacher in custody after firing gun at school

[Black Aeronaut]

Guys.  What I am against is outright bans.  They are not going to fix things, and will more likely than not make things worse.

What I am for, on the other hand, is better regulation.  In fact, I would even dare say to regulate guns the way motor vehicles are.

1. They need to pass a safety inspection on a yearly basis.
   
2. They need to be registered with the ATF and the registration needs to be renewed every year.  Also, buns will need dated registration tags that are clearly visible.
   
3. You are required to have a license that certifies you as being competent to use a firearm.  This extends to mental health as well.
   
4. Assault type weapons and other mil-spec weapons may only be used by people registered with a local militia.  Said militia must drill at least once a month in order to maintain their status.
   
5. The background check system must be digitized and simplified to a basic pass-fail system.  This will enable gun retailers to perform on-the-spot verification, as well as law enforcement and mental health professionals to quickly update the system.
   
6. Just like cars, guns will need to be insured.  This insurance is not only for potential damages caused by the weapon in the event of negligent or unlawful use, but also to cover for damages to the weapon itself and even outright theft.  The premiums charged will encourage gun owners to police themselves.
   
7. Guns may not be owned by anyone under the age of 21, unless currently serving in the armed forces.  Parents that wish to take their children shooting must have additional training and have their gun license show the a 'family' endorsement, or to a certified firing range.  Anyone under the age of 21 is not to be permitted to use a firearm unless under supervision by qualified individuals.  No exceptions, not even for hunting - when hunting the buddy system should apply regardless!!!
   

All this I believe is very fair and just, and I believe will increase accountability to the point where shootings like these will largely become a thing of the past.

And additionally - I fail to understand why people ignore this so emphatically - YOU NEED TO TREAT THE DISEASE AND NOT JUST THE SYMPTOMS!

I would think that the Austin Bombings would be a clear enough indicator of this.  He made those bombs entirely out of household materials and with no formal training whatsoever.  When the police were approaching him, he intentionally killed himself using one of his own devices.  And he has proven that bombs are a far more terrifying weapon than guns.  Bombs are utterly indiscriminate when they detonate as their entire purpose is to spread as much damage in as wide of an area as possible.  One of them detonated in a sorting facility.  It did not care that it had not reached its destination.

You can see the mad man armed with assault weapons and carrying ballistic armor.  You do not see the bomb coming.  It is innocuous.  It does not look out of place.  You are not even aware of the possibility until it is too late.  Spotting them requires a level of paranoia that, I believe, is emphatically unhealthy.  You will always be worried about what is lurking, unseen.

People love to talk about bump stocks and how the Las Vegas shooter used them to such an effect.  But what everyone doesn't discuss is the fact that this madman had 50 POUNDS OF TANNERITE IN HIS CAR!!!  And all rigged so that he can blow it with a single gunshot.

Any and all of your arguments on this front are officially invalid.  Bombs are not complex.  They can be made entirely out of household products.  Even the explosive itself can be easy to make, highly stable, and require only a basic initiator.

These products are all things that you cannot reasonably regulate without turning our nation into a police state, though I know some of you would argue that it already is.

The only fix for this is to treat the underlying disease.  Otherwise... go ahead.  Ban as many guns as you like.  It won't matter in the end.  Instead, you'll see more and more Mark Anthony Conditts.  I will sit here and wonder how much worse it will get before anyone begins to wake up to the notion that there is something horribly wrong in our country that needs to be fixed, and no amount of bans will do it.

Stop trying to sweep the real problem under the rug!  You want to honor the lives of those that have been lost?  FIX THE REAL PROBLEM.

[Labster]

Guns may not be owned by anyone under the age of 21, unless currently serving in the armed forces.  Parents that wish to take their children shooting must have additional training and have their gun license show the a 'family' endorsement, or to a certified firing range.  Anyone under the age of 21 is not to be permitted to use a firearm unless under supervision by qualified individuals.  No exceptions, not even for hunting - when hunting the buddy system should apply regardless!!!

I don't understand this logic at all. Either an 18 year old can be trusted with a gun or they can't.  If they can't then we need to raise the age for admission to the armed forces to 21.  I'm aware that this would be a recruiting nightmare, but hey, at least it would allow the U.S. to join the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child.  Look who's the odd one out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention..._Child.svg

But yeah, guns and motor vehicles in a similar category to me -- both useful tools that if misused can very easily result in death, and thus should be regulated.  The government knows where every street legal car is, who owns it, and who is allowed to drive it.  A similar approach to guns seems reasonable.

While I kind of approve of the rest of your rant, there's very few details on what the REAL PROBLEM is.  Do you mean mental illness?  Domestic violence against women?  What kind of mental illness?  The majority of gun deaths in the United States are suicides, so maybe depression?  How much of that depression is caused by environmental causes, like poverty or drugs?  The second most common cause of gun deaths is accidents.  Do we need to add more training, and if so is that training even effective?  Gun deaths decrease nationwide during NRA conventions, typically held in convention centers that don't allow firearms, so one has to wonder if the current training is effective.  Or are you talking about mass shootings, which often involve some sort of radicalization.  So do we try to improve social bonds in our communities?  Investigate people who make thoughtcrime google searches?

I mean, it's like WTF are we supposed to fix?

[Rajvik]

I could agree with licensing guns like cars if they made it a mandatory high school class. You used to have such, but they were taken away long before even i went to school.