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Treason Season??
RE: Treason Season??
(06-01-2019, 11:32 AM)Rajvik Wrote: I am going to try and take these in order.
Norgarth: yes, as have i, maybe I didn't word the statement concisely enough and maybe I should have put the physical break of a line between those points. The I WANT mentality exists across all barriers save one, the willingness to work for it.

Epsilon: I don't hate capitalism, what I PREFER is that companies hire local labor at reasonable wages so that their local communities are reinvested in instead of the gin owners being able to buy a new pickup truck for themselves and the wife a new Mercedes sedan every season.

Rob: the wall will at best decrease the available labor pool forcing employers to hire more locals. The price of cotton will go up by weight as a result, but not an unreasonable amount.

Hazard, the cost of using US born workers would be acceptable to the paying public because the money would be going back into local economies.

The use of prisoners for labor is tightly constrained depending on what state you are in and mostly limited to roadside and forestry work. The old "making license plates" trope was something from the 40s and 50s and prisoners are not allowed into public businesses as they are required to be under constant supervision.

Edit:
And sometimes the answer to a complex problem Silverfang is to realize that it isn't as complex as you want to think they are. Simple answers are best because they are easy to keep to

Oh you sweet summer child.

The paying public gives not a single thought about who made it. Who made it is irrelevant to their decision making. What they care about is their money, in no small part because that is what is advertised most loudly on the tag.

And trust me, the private prisons would happily buy vast swathes of land to be worked by chain gangs if they believed it'd be profitable and law permitted it. In fact, IIRC there are prisons in the South of the USA actively fielding chain gangs to pick cotton.


And I've got a simple answer for you for the South American refugee crisis the USA has to deal with right now. Start restricting the sale of guns and ammunition in the USA. Seriously. The USA has become one of if not outright the biggest suppliers of the guns those South American gangs Trump and other right wingers like to rail against, and those gangs and the cheap guns and munitions they can get (often through intermediaries) right from the USA are what's providing everything the gangs need for the violence they work in. And that violence is what drives the caravans towards the north.
RE: Treason Season??
Prisoners picking cotton? Site please, I want to see who grits to join their prisoners in wearing a jumpsuit.

Hazard Wrote:And I've got a simple answer for you for the South American refugee crisis the USA has to deal with right now. Start restricting the sale of guns and ammunition in the USA. Seriously. The USA has become one of if not outright the biggest suppliers of the guns those South American gangs

You might want to speak to the previous administration and their "Fast and Furious" program, not the current administration and their attempt to take control back of our border.
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

RE: Treason Season??
(06-01-2019, 01:03 PM)Rajvik Wrote: Prisoners picking cotton? Site please, I want to see who grits to join their prisoners in wearing a jumpsuit.

Hazard Wrote:And I've got a simple answer for you for the South American refugee crisis the USA has to deal with right now. Start restricting the sale of guns and ammunition in the USA. Seriously. The USA has become one of if not outright the biggest suppliers of the guns those South American gangs

You might want to speak to the previous administration and their "Fast and Furious" program, not the current administration and their attempt to take control back of our border.

It's not a separate facility, it's part of one of Louisiana's max security prisons. It's a long running program from all impressions too. 

Rajvik, the previous administration is not blameless, but the current administration is not doing anything despite massive public demands for them do something. Anything at all. All that has happened is that the people at the front of that demand are vilified by the current administration's supporters while the administration either says nothing or quietly approves instead of pushing back in even the slightest amounts. The previous administration at least signed into law restrictions on weapons and components and the sale of them, regardless of how ineffective they were, even if it was only temporary. And the current administration has let those restrictions lapse and failed to reestablish them, regardless of public demand.
RE: Treason Season??
Hazard, what you are suggesting is doing something to save face, to appear to be doing something to placate the masses. While that may work for politicians whose only goal is to be reelected it doesn't solve the problem.

Silverfang made a comment about the simple minded wanting simple answers, and I retorted that sometimes it is the simple answer you need because you are overthinking the problem. Conversely there are subjects that because of history and law are difficult problems that require well thought out answers on multiple fronts. Now, while I particularly blame the majority of our internal problems on what I call the snowflake syndrome, the exterior problem isn't limited to something so simple as gun sales no matter who is doing it.

In the previous wall thread someone said that the migrant caravans were the USs "Dollar Diplomacy" coming home to roost. In a way they were right, however, what they failed to recognize is that we had tried two of the other three methods already and they either didn't work for more than a generation or were abandoned when public opinion turned against it. Frankly all we have left as options is either dollar diplomacy, aka paying the danegeld, or conquest. Because otherwise we are going to have to tank our own economy so bad that people are fleeing the US.
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

RE: Treason Season??
(06-01-2019, 07:22 PM)Rajvik Wrote: Hazard, what you are suggesting is doing something to save face, to appear to be doing something to placate the masses. While that may work for politicians whose only goal is to be reelected it doesn't solve the problem.

Looking at the Australian and New Zealand approach to mass shootings, I'm not so sure about that. Hell, the Australian government who passed its laws on gun restrictions got their asses kicked in the following election regardless of how clearly necessary and publicly supported it was. Although admittedly they went for thorough and effective legislation.

(06-01-2019, 07:22 PM)Rajvik Wrote: Silverfang made a comment about the simple minded wanting simple answers, and I retorted that sometimes it is the simple answer you need because you are overthinking the problem. Conversely there are subjects that because of history and law are difficult problems that require well thought out answers on multiple fronts. Now, while I particularly blame the majority of our internal problems on what I call the snowflake syndrome, the exterior problem isn't limited to something so simple as gun sales no matter who is doing it.

Right wingers are notorious snowflakes, it's true, who make a lot of noise whenever confronted with anything they find even vaguely uncomfortable. Like facts.

It's true that gun sales are not the only source of the USA's internal problems. But the USA gun culture is one of the key factors in why the problems it has are as bad as they are, and a simple answer is both available and likely to be effective. Not in the immediate, true, given that the USA is not likely to pass a sweeping ban and reclaim scheme, but it will help a fair bit over time. The other bit of course is reforming USA gun culture.

(06-01-2019, 07:22 PM)Rajvik Wrote: In the previous wall thread someone said that the migrant caravans were the USs "Dollar Diplomacy" coming home to roost. In a way they were right, however, what they failed to recognize is that we had tried two of the other three methods already and they either didn't work for more than a generation or were abandoned when public opinion turned against it. Frankly all we have left as options is either dollar diplomacy, aka paying the danegeld, or conquest. Because otherwise we are going to have to tank our own economy so bad that people are fleeing the US.

And those other methods would be?

Not that conquest has worked out that well either mind you. Just ask the 19th and 20th century methodology.
RE: Treason Season??
(06-02-2019, 02:59 AM)hazard Wrote: Looking at the Australian and New Zealand approach to mass shootings, I'm not so sure about that. Hell, the Australian government who passed its laws on gun restrictions got their asses kicked in the following election regardless of how clearly necessary and publicly supported it was. Although admittedly they went for thorough and effective legislation.

Honestly, Howard and co didn't lose because of gun laws. They lost because one, they had been in for several terms already, and the usual flow of government was against them. Two, they'd earned a lot more hatred by introducing a flat Goods and Services Tax, which they'd made Not Doing the central focus of their previous election campaign. They'd been blasted by that particular broken promise for years, no matter if the long run has helped show it was the good choice. Finally, they lost because Howard was a racist prick, and the swing in public culture after the Pauline Hanson mess made his actions towards indigenous Australians and illegal immigrants a lot more unacceptable (Getting caught out falsely claiming parents were throwing their children into the ocean REALLY didn't help). By the time the election came around, the guns were a non-issue.
RE: Treason Season??
I stand corrected.
RE: Treason Season??
Yeah, I've mentioned it before in other threads, but the gun debate in every single country except America is drastically different. We don't worship the gun the way the likes of the NRA has encouraged for years to establish its political grip. The debate never became 'They're taking all the guns!' outside of a few nutjobs who were rightly dismissed as idiots. It was 'how will we achieve this and make it stick?' and never became a central election issue.
RE: Treason Season??
Trump claims he has no obligation to call in the FBI if information stolen by foreign adversaries is offered to him

Quote:FBI Director Christopher Wray told lawmakers Donald Trump Jr. should have called his agency to report the offer.

But Trump, who nominated Wray to the role in 2017, told ABC News that he disagrees. "The FBI director is wrong." The president added, "Life doesn't work like that."

Asked whether his advisers should accept information on an opponent from Russia, China or another nation or call the FBI this time, Trump said, "I think maybe you do both," expressing openness to reviewing the information.

Hmmmmm... Well, you folks south of the border wanted somebody who wouldn't do things the way politicians did them. Now you know why politicians do things the way politicians do them.
--
Rob Kelk

Sticks and stones can break your bones,
But words can break your heart.
- unknown
RE: Treason Season??
Trump’s communications with foreign leader are part of whistleblower complaint that spurred standoff between spy chief and Congress, former officials say Already confirmed by other outlets.

TL;DR: A member of the intelligence community found that Trump had, during a phone call to a foreign leader, promised him something that either was a violation of law or an urgent national security threat. They submitted a whistleblower complaint, and the Inspector General agreed and forwarded it on to the DNI. And the Trump administration, in violation of law, has determined that Congress has no oversight over such sensitive executive matters and is telling them nothing.

Looks like it's go time, people.
"Kitto daijoubu da yo." - Sakura Kinomoto
RE: Treason Season??
I'll believe it when I see it actually happen.
RE: Treason Season??
Indeed. Right now he can try to weasel out of it by saying that he has the right to set policy on what constitutes "confidential" information. And there you'll have a long and drawn out legal battle where, if Trump loses, it will set an interesting new precedent that simply states: "No, the POTUS no longer has that particular authority."

Keep in mind, of course, that's all contingent on him being impeached in the first place. But with this, that might actually happen.

Again, keep in mind, impeachment doesn't necessarily mean you're no longer the POTUS. We saw that with Clinton. It just means that it looks like someone has a strong case against you and the Senate is looking into the matter to judge whether or not you should be charged.

This is why the Democrats are biding their time, and the Republicans are doing everything they can to goad them into it, including calling out for impeachment themselves. With a Republican majority in the Senate and the Republicans presenting an overwhelmingly united front, an impeachment won't make it through.

But so far, signs are pointing towards the Senate turning blue this election. There's a lot of seats on the Red Side that are going up for grabs, and many constituents (even in states that are quite Red) are very much sick and tired of the Republicans quest for racism, fascism, and misogyny.

As for the intelligence agencies that are not only complicit, but also trying to sweep this under the rug?

Yeah. More heads are about to start rolling.
RE: Treason Season??
and another tidbit of the reality has come out, not that you'll listen or if you do you won't believe it.

The "Improper" comments were apparently suggesting that the Ukrainians look into restarting their investigation into Hunter Biden, you know, the one that his daddy, the Vice-President at the time, made them fire the investigating prosecutor or loose the 1 Billion dollar loan guarantee, AND THEN BRAGGED ABOUT IT.

Gee, not something so inappropriate now huh?
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

RE: Treason Season??
(09-20-2019, 09:06 PM)Rajvik Wrote: and another tidbit of the reality has come out, not that you'll listen or if you do you won't believe it.

Let's just say I'll consider the source, the way you do before insisting that any source that's not Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, or somebody else in their orbit, is objectively pro-TEH SOCIALIZMS!!!11

Quote:The "Improper" comments were apparently suggesting that the Ukrainians look into restarting their investigation into Hunter Biden,

Even the liberal MSNBC reported that much.

Quote:you know, the one that his daddy, the Vice-President at the time, made them fire the investigating prosecutor or loose the 1 Billion dollar loan guarantee, AND THEN BRAGGED ABOUT IT.

(citation desperately needed)
RE: Treason Season??
(09-20-2019, 09:14 PM)Mamorien Wrote:
(09-20-2019, 09:06 PM)Rajvik Wrote: and another tidbit of the reality has come out, not that you'll listen or if you do you won't believe it.

Let's just say I'll consider the source, the way you do before insisting that any source that's not Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, or somebody else in their orbit, is objectively pro-TEH SOCIALIZMS!!!11

This is why I don't even look at any of the USA-based news outlets for this sort of thing any more.

I assume UK-based Reuters is acceptable as a neutral source. They have the byline on this article.

Quote:Reuters has not confirmed details of the whistleblower's complaint. But a source familiar with the matter said it alleged "multiple acts" by Trump, not just a phone call with a foreign leader. The source requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.

So, all of the arguments posted here on both sides based on this being about a single action need to be reviewed and possibly re-stated.

EDIT: And the other statements in that article - especially the multiple statements about just who is threatening to withhold aid to where - need to be addressed.
--
Rob Kelk

Sticks and stones can break your bones,
But words can break your heart.
- unknown
RE: Treason Season??
I'll be honest, Crazy Racist Old Man Biden getting caught with some of this would be mildly satisfying.
RE: Treason Season??
Mamorian, I will try and find the soundbite on Youtube, but no promises. I did however personally listen to the soundbite and what I described is if anything downplaying what Biden said he did.

As for the  article, it was written in the Wall Street Journal which I can't access because I'm cheap, it was being read on the Mark Levin show so you will probably discount it.

Rob, Refuters is apparently off, or rather their source is. The way I heard it, as read from the above mentioned WSJ article, is that there were supposedly 7 or 8 times "Trump suggested that the Ukrainians reopen the investigation.


Finally, Mamorian, the reason I distrust CNN and MSNBC is because they claim objectivism while being blatant partisan hacks, or do i have to go back and list all the times they have been blatantly and unapologetically wrong about major stories they have "covered"
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

RE: Treason Season??
Why do you even bother refuting Rajvik?  There is no way for mortals like us to reach someone so far lost in the darkness.
"Kitto daijoubu da yo." - Sakura Kinomoto
RE: Treason Season??
Sigh... come on folks. Disagree all you like, but there's no need to make personal attacks. None of us here are involved in policy decisions beyond being one of millions casting a vote come election time, and that only for citizens of the relevant country. It's not any of our fault either way.
--
‎noli esse culus
RE: Treason Season??
Mamorian, here is your citation, like I said, him bragging about it
https://youtu.be/UXA--dj2-CY
Now, here is one news source that is not fox, (don't know who but you probably dont believe their take
https://youtu.be/KCF9My1vBP4
Just like I say Bloomberg is full of it but here is their spin
https://youtu.be/d4aLZyf7JTU
Edit: And a CNN contributors take
https://youtu.be/OS_ybCgkg4w
So believe what you want
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

RE: Treason Season??
(09-21-2019, 05:23 AM)classicdrogn Wrote: Sigh... come on folks. Disagree all you like, but there's no need to make personal attacks. None of us here are involved in policy decisions beyond being one of millions casting a vote come election time, and that only for citizens of the relevant country. It's not any of our fault either way.

Sorry, I'm past the point of pretending.  Trump is a fascist, and anyone who supports his agenda or defends his reputation in any way is committing an evil act.  I can forgive him the sin, but I'm not going to pretend that he's not going around spreading a bunch of evil on this forum.  And without the help of the Holy Spirit, he's proven himself far beyond my reach.

There is such a thing as collective guilt, and Trump supporters are going to have to bear it for a long, long time.  And you drogn, are doing a very good job of absolving yourself of any collective guilt in advance.  I did nothing, because I'm not involved and don't want to be and therefore powerless.  Such a moral stand.

It's also not really true that none of us are involved, because I got involved in party politics after 2016.  You could argue that it was perhaps too late, but better too late than never.  I'm going to be on the ballot in the next election -- just for the Democratic Party County Central Committee -- but on a real ballot.  Is the party perfect?  No.  But at least it hasn't abandoned the idea of democracy.  Maybe you shouldn't either.
"Kitto daijoubu da yo." - Sakura Kinomoto
RE: Treason Season??
(09-21-2019, 07:47 PM)Labster Wrote: Trump is a fascist, and anyone who supports his agenda or defends his reputation in any way is committing an evil act.

I remember a quote I once saw. 'If you see a Nazi sitting at a table with nine friends, you're looking at ten Nazis.'
RE: Treason Season??
Good on you for getting more into it, then, Labster, but collective responsibility is the road to "shoot everyone I don't like" so that holds no water with me.

As for fixing the world in general... blame early literacy and holding on to the lies we tell children too late, but yes, I have given up on it, because all of the things I'd consider worth working toward are precluded by the laws of physics, let alone man. While I may think wishful thoughts of alternate universes and reincarnation, I don't actually believe in an afterlife or some paradigm-changing undiscovered physics or supernatural woo-woo in general. This is all we get, and it sucks. It's not worth getting worked up over, the universe doesn't care. And yes, I am fully aware this contradicts what I said just above, but most of the time I try to delude myself into thinking that there's a poit to doing anything at all, and support people I vaguely like doing things they feel passionate about.

Fucking politics forum. I know better than to read it, but I keep coming back.
--
‎noli esse culus
RE: Treason Season??
(09-22-2019, 03:27 AM)classicdrogn Wrote: Good on you for getting more into it, then, Labster, but collective responsibility is the road to "shoot everyone I don't like" so that holds no water with me.

No, 'Shooting people I don't like' is what a disturbingly large percentage of Trump supporters want. And far rights in general, honestly. I've dealt with more than a few here in Australia, including former co-workers, who believe that killing people for the crime of being a different skin color, religion or sexual preference is a bold and noble stance to take. I remember one co-worker who ended up fired who couldn't understand that his 'jokes' about 'fighting off the gays' were the reason part of the administrative staff wanted nothing to do with him and had in fact complained about harassment.

Trying a 'oh, both sides lead to shooting people' argument is flawed, and frankly, insulting.
RE: Treason Season??
Collective responsibility is the only thing that avoids the Tragedy of the Commons.  And unfortunately, it's a deep problem, as explained in this week's SSC, Too Much Dark Money in Almonds.  This guy is an atheist, so maybe you'll buy this argument better than mine.

Scott Alexander Wrote:In this model, the difference between politics and almonds is that if you spend $2 on almonds, you get $2 worth of almonds. In politics, if you spend $2 on Bernie Sanders, you get nothing, unless millions of other people also spend their $2 on him. People are great at spending money on direct consumption goods, and terrible at spending money on coordination problems.

I don’t want more money in politics. But the same factors that keep money out of politics keep it out of charity too.

The politics case is interesting because it’s so obvious. Nobody’s going to cynically declare “Oh, people don’t really care who wins the election, they just pretend to.” It’s coordination problems! It has to be!

But you don't get to avoid responsibility just because you think you have no effect.  It's not how it works.  If everyone thinks we have no responsibility to do anything on climate change, then we all live in a worse world.  Thankfully, some of us have done something.  Or, as the old adage goes, the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

It has nothing to do with people I don't like.  I like a lot of Republicans, all told.  Or well, people who were Republicans before 2016, at least.  I got the UC Davis student council out of an official UC-systemwide student organization, mainly because the Republicans told us that they weren't working well.  That they were more interested in grinding ideological axes about affirmative action and diversity and socialism than in representing the student body.  And you know what, the conservatives were right!  This was the budget-cut era of 2005, there was no way we'd ever get free tuition for everyone and Schwarzenegger's signature on an (illegal) university quota bill.  You can't go out and effectively lobby if your starting position is a non-starter.

Or take GethN7, who is definitely a conservative.  But there's a difference with him, as compared to the Trump defenders.  We have our Christianity in common, and that helps a lot.  But we also have our patriotism in common.  That, even if we disagree, we are all working towards of a more economically vital, more environmentally protected, more democratic country.  Those assumptions are always underlying our conversations.  This kind of patriotism holds in a lot of well-known conservatives... very few of whom are in Congress right now.

But Trump's most ardent supporters are the kind to shoot people they don't like.  I've had a guy across traffic from his high-suspension pickup truck, veins visible on his forehead across 5 lanes of traffic, scream at the top of his lungs that he was going to go home, get his gun, and fucking kill us all.  For having a peaceful protest on a sidewalk.  So according to your argument, I'm like that guy because I'm saying you need to act on this forum.  I'm not saying that you have to be like me and put your life on the line.  But you have to do something.  If you dismiss your own ability to act, then you demean yourself.

Besides Christianity, the other moral framework I use a lot is from Revolutionary Girl Utena.  I don't talk about it much because it's fairly otaku and niche and most people aren't quite the fan I am.  It rather mirrored some of my own experiences in student council, which might explain some of the obsession.  But the moral lessons are simple:  Never lose your strength and nobility.  The world is messy and complex and you may never know the truth behind it all, but what you can do is to hang on to love and justice, and be prepared to fight for it.  All of life's a stage, but some people choose to wait in the wings.  The revolution comes painfully slowly, one moment, one person at a time.  And sometimes, you have no good choice but to revolutionize the world.  Classicdrogn, the path which you must take has been prepared.
"Kitto daijoubu da yo." - Sakura Kinomoto


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