Government Shutdown

[Labster]

If he gets two terms, then "It's all downhill from here" is even more appropriate.

[Black Aeronaut]

Oh god, will it ever. If he gets a second term, I won't be surprised if DC burns for the second time in history.

[classicdrogn]

Well with any luck, Mueller will come out with the results of the investigation and have a slam-dunk case for impeachment and criminal charges, so we won't even have to deal with a single full term. Just the bit about instructing people to commit perjury should do it if there's really the evidence various sources have claimed, but of course until it's on the table any such material is in question. As odious as he is, he's still innocent until proven guilty culpable.

[robkelk]

As for the shutdown...

I wonder whether you folks can get enough States together to exercise their power under Article Five of the Constitution to convene a National Convention to pass a constitutional amendment stating that elected members of the legislative and executive branches are not to receive pay during an "emergency shutdown" of the government. (The Twenty-seventh Amendment already deals with the pay of members of Congress, so this is the appropriate instrument for such a measure.) It has to apply to both branches, not just one.

[Black Aeronaut]

Look at it this way. It’s arguably worse than what Bill did - which was to lie under oath. He never told anyone to commit perjury. And anyone crying foul over Trump getting impeached either isn’t paying much attention to history, or is just so full of it that their eyes should be brown instead of blue. </s>

[SilverFang01]

As for the shutdown...

I wonder whether you folks can get enough States together to exercise their power under Article Five of the Constitution to convene a National Convention to pass a constitutional amendment stating that elected members of the legislative and executive branches are not to receive pay during an "emergency shutdown" of the government. (The Twenty-seventh Amendment already deals with the pay of members of Congress, so this is the appropriate instrument for such a measure.) It has to apply to both branches, not just one.

There is already a move in that direction but is generally considered to be a bad idea, since the last time it happened we ended up replacing the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...47d5f3b3c4

[robkelk]

The constitution isn't Holy Writ, carved in stone.

Canada's 1867 constitution (the British North America Act) was replaced in 1931 (the Statute of Westminster), and that was replaced in 1982 (the Constitution of Canada). In the meantime, you folks keep using a patched-up (27 amendments so far) ruleset that was designed for the 18th century.

As long as you spend enough time on the process - five-six years minimum - you should be okay with a constitutional convention.

[hazard]

Laws are always patched up rule sets Rob, repeatedly amending the USA constitution is not a real problem. I mean, the Dutch constitution was first written in 1815, and has been amended in 1840, 1848, 1887, 1917, 1922, 1938, 1946, 1948, 1953, 1956, 1963, 1972, saw a complete revision in 1983 (after a decade of work) and has been amended since in 1987, 1995, 1999, 2000, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2008 and 2017.

But then, the Dutch constitution, AFAIK, covers a fair bit more issues than the USA constitution.

[DHBirr]

The prevalent fear regarding a new constitutional convention is that the current dominant group in the Republicans would seize control of the convention and use it to write a constitution effectively enshrining gerrymandering and voter suppression as the never-to-be-overturned law of the land.  Is it paranoid to believe they could pull that off?  I don't know, but I strongly suspect, based on things I've heard and read some of them saying, it's the GOP's wet dream.

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God made me an agnostic — who are you to question His wisdom?

[Valles]

The problem with blocking congressional pay is that not all congresscritters are personally rich - but some of them are. McConnell is worth 27 million; he can lose his salary and laugh. Representative Mark Pryor (D - Arkansas) has only fifteen thousand in the bank. In a situation like this, living in DC with all its prices, which of them will be under more personal pressure to fold?

[Labster]

The constitution isn't Holy Writ, carved in stone.

Sorry, gotta disagree on this one.  Wikipedia: White Horse Prophecy

And it's not just that.  Constitutional fundamentalism is a common judicial philosophy in the U.S., it's just usually referred to as originalism.

[robkelk]

And it's not just that.  Constitutional fundamentalism is a common judicial philosophy in the U.S., it's just usually referred to as originalism.

Which is a good argument for changing the constitution wholesale every so often, IMHO.

[SilverFang01]

It seems Trump is intent to give his SOTU even if he has to force his way into Congress.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/23/us/po...etter.html

I will say this for Trump. He is now forcing us to figure out all the obscure clauses in the Constitution like the State of the Union Clause or the Emoluments Clause.

I can hardly wait until Trump decides to issue patents of nobility.

[classicdrogn]

Na na, na na, Pelosi's back!
Yeah, she knows what you been tweetin'
Now, you're gonna take a beatin'

Something something, believe all your lies (Wa-ooo, da da da, da da da da)
something something, cut you down to size (wa-ooo, da da da, wait and see!)



I mean, I'm not a big fan of her either, but since she's supporting the positions of "no wasting billions on a useless vanity project" and "negotiations start after the government is open for business" I'm on the same side in this case.

[Labster]

It seems Trump is intent to give his SOTU even if he has to force his way into Congress.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/23/us/po...etter.html

I will say this for Trump. He is now forcing us to figure out all the obscure clauses in the Constitution like the State of the Union Clause or the Emoluments Clause.

I can hardly wait until Trump decides to issue patents of nobility.

You mean like Barron Trump?  There's actually a whole series of novels about the concept written like 100 years ago.

Which is a good argument for changing the constitution wholesale every so often, IMHO.

Hey, I've just gotta say, America is not like a slightly different form of Canada that doesn't eat poutine.  We're a deeply different nation with our own religions and values.  Just like in the UK where a calf must be sacrificed in order to enact laws in Parliament, here in the United States the Constitution is written on a material so holy that for decades it was illegal to even possess that kind of paper.  So don't take our culture lightly.

[robkelk]

Fair enough - that trope cuts both ways, after all. I'll drop this.

[hazard]

The problem with blocking congressional pay is that not all congresscritters are personally rich - but some of them are. McConnell is worth 27 million; he can lose his salary and laugh. Representative Mark Pryor (D - Arkansas) has only fifteen thousand in the bank. In a situation like this, living in DC with all its prices, which of them will be under more personal pressure to fold?

Easily resolved the same way excessive negotiations by the cardinals when looking for a new Pope is. Just shove them all into the same building and the longer a shutdown goes on the worse the conditions get, until all they're getting is a shower and fresh clothes every day, water, and bread.

Also, I'm surprised that Congress hasn't decided to establish government living quarters for the Congresscritters yet, roomy enough to work and live in without excessive frills and free to said congresscritters. Want better/larger? Pay for it yourselves.

[SilverFang01]

White House seeks list of programs that would be hurt if shutdown lasts into March

White House acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney has pressed agency leaders to provide him with a list of the highest-impact programs that will be jeopardized if the shutdown continues into March and April, people familiar with the directive said.

Mulvaney wants the list no later than Friday, these people said, and it’s the firmest evidence to date that the White House is preparing for a lengthy funding lapse that could have snowballing consequences for the economy and government services.

Are they really expecting this to last that long?

[classicdrogn]

It's like a chicken race in one fo those 50s movies, "Who'll drive themselves off a cliff first, the UK or the USA?"

With Putin in a fluffy sweater and a poodle skirt, waving a flag and cheering.

[Bob Schroeck]

At this rate, Mexico will pay for the wall, to keep out illegal American immigrants trying to take advantage of better job prospects and living conditions in Mexico.

[DHBirr]

The U.S. Secretary of Commerce is as clueless and/or malevolent as his president.

In his television interview, Ross repeatedly stressed that federal workers should simply take out loans to cover their expenses while the government was shut down. He acknowledged they would have to likely pay some interest, but he said it should help them cover costs.

So because the government isn't fulfilling its obligation to pay those who work for it, he recommends those workers should go into debt?  Am I understanding this correctly?  Assuming they ever received their rightful pay, they'd still owe interest on money that should've been theirs all along.

Oh, and you gotta love his concern for them:

“If they never got their pay — which is not the case, they will eventually get it, but if they never got it, you’re talking about a third of a percent on our economy,” Ross said. “So it’s not like it’s a gigantic number overall.”

It's not a big deal that hundreds of thousands of families may be impoverished, bankrupted.  I'm so reassured.

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Il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un roi pour décourager les autres.  (It is good to kill a king from time to time to discourage the others.)
— paraphrased from Voltaire.  Merci, M’sieur Arouet.

[hazard]

It's a third of a percent of the economy whose job includes billing the people for the government's services. If the shutdown goes on long enough the government won't receive any taxes, which means that essentially 1/4th of the economy falls flat on account of no money.

[Labster]

I think maybe the upside here is that no one will ever try to do this again. The downside is that things will get a whole lot worse before getting better.

[DHBirr]

As a comment on one article, someone using only the name Jack proposed a response to Trump's claim that grocers and banks would "work along" with the people his shutdown put in financial difficulties:

Every federal worker not being paid should rent a room at a trump property and firmly declare they can't pay until the trump shutdown is over. I'm sure trump will be "understanding" of their situation.

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Children, don’t talk to strangers.  Strangers don’t want to hear it.

[SilverFang01]

And so it begins...