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Chapter 2 Is Now Available!
Re: Chapter 2 Is Now Available!
If I could find a place to work that into DW5, I'd be so tempted to do so...

-- Bob
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It's a "magical" land. I think "magical" is ancient Greek for "pain in the butt". -- Bun-Bun, Sluggy Freelance, 11/9/03
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A few comments on the story thus far
A few comments on The Story Thus Far:
Though realizing that this takes place in, mostly, its own continuity, there are certain aspects of the original work that I
feel have been deliberately jettisoned in favor of some orthodox manichean conflict. Specifically, I am referring to the end
of chapter two wherein we are re-introduced to the demon Mara.
Mara has always been, if not a particularly nuanced character, at least one that is not particularly evil per se. This is
true for many of the "demon" characters, in that the most negative consequences of their actions are mostly unintended, or at
least beside the point. Mara's main goal is to send the goddesses permanently back to heaven, which she does by trying to
break up Keiichi and Belldandy. Welsper's goal was to have Belldandy remember him. Hild's . . . well, who can say what
Hild's goal is.
Their actions are antagonistic but usually not malicious. Indeed, the only mention of a "soul" in conjunction with a demon
was during the Queen Sayoko arc, wherein Mara offers power to Sayoko. Sayoko bemusedly asks if it would cost her soul and
Mara replies in the negative, actually surprised that the subject was brought up.
That Mara was trying to "tempt" a man's "soul" from him seems to contradict the spirit (as, of course, canon does not apply)
of the original work.
Indeed, it could be said that a few other things contradict the spirit of the original work. Certainly the characterization
of Belldandy is also another point. In the original work, Belldandy is characterized as someone who will stand up for her
love, firm in her convictions--both points that were present in DW/OMB. Yet it is also clear that *this* Belldandy is also a
disciplinarian, unlike her original counterpart who suppresses her jealousy until it comes out as destructive lightning
bolts; a Belldandy that will demand nothing, only smiling assert her position; an innocent naif untainted by shame (here one
could go on about Original Sin and its nature and so on but one shan't), neither daunted nor indeed noticing of others' hatred or jealousy towards her.
As an aside, it has always struck me that one of the more unique aspects of this 'magical girl' story is the fact that,
unlike many other magical girl stories, this one is not predicated on the magical girls having to keep secret their true
natures on pain of exile and erasure from their friend's memories. It is always Keiichi who insists on their keeping their
natures secret, which the others comply with . . . with varying degrees of success and compliance.
However, as for the second chapter, it is heartening to see this chapter, as it counterpoints nicely to the frankly cliched first chapter. Though enjoyable in itself, there is simply no going around the fact that the first chapter had the cliched 'two heroes, unaware of the other's heroic nature, meet and fight'--a story as old and probably as dated as Gilgamesh and Enkidu (though Enkidu was made by the gods to fight Gilgamesh, my point still stands). Though the tensions are still there, this chapter was filled with enjoyable moments as Doug immerses himself in his new world, a part of the story that I always enjoy. His interactions with the other cast members, his own feelings and emotions about this new world, is a treat.
Yet the real developments in character come from the other protagonist, Chris Angel. It is in this chapter that the apotheosized god is learning that divinity is more than just being able to stop time and travel through clocks. This development, frankly, was long overdue and one wonders how he will confront the fact that he himself is part of something much larger than himself.
One final note--though it is said in the concordance that the idea that the temple the cast lives in is not a Shinto temple was introduced late in the series, that is simply not true. The fact that it was a Buddhist temple was clear from its introduction in chapter three of the manga, where the monk who oversaw the temple was humbled by Belldandy's spiritual purity and left on a pilgrimage to better himself, leaving the temple in Belldandy and Keiichi's care.
-Murmur
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Re: A few comments on the story thus far
Mara has always been, if not a particularly nuanced character, at least one that is not particularly evil per se.
Quote:
This is
true for many of the "demon" characters, in that the most negative consequences of their actions are mostly unintended, or at
least beside the point. Mara's main goal is to send the goddesses permanently back to heaven, which she does by trying to
break up Keiichi and Belldandy. Welsper's goal was to have Belldandy remember him. Hild's . . . well, who can say what
Hild's goal is.
Hild's goal is fairly easy to understand.There was a cover picture in one of the chapters when Hild first appeared. Picture the Madonna and Child. Sub a young Hild as the Madonna and a baby Urd as the Child.
Quote:
In the original work, Belldandy is characterized as someone who will stand up for her
love, firm in her convictions--both points that were present in DW/OMB. Yet it is also clear that *this* Belldandy is also a
disciplinarian, unlike her original counterpart who suppresses her jealousy until it comes out as destructive lightning
bolts;
Your comparisons are not clear. Setting and enforcing clear standards between right and wrong actions doesn't mean you have to be terrorize people to do so (though the Judges might disagree with me). Belldandy is that type of person you wouldn't dare disappoint. She can lay down the law, simply by being who she is. A softer type of iron fist, inside the velvet glove. But still iron, none the less.
Quote:
It is always Keiichi who insists on their keeping their
natures secret, which the others comply with . . . with varying degrees of success and compliance.
Keiichi laid down his reasons in the arc where the Goddesses met his parents. His great (and justified) fear is that there are people that would and will seek to gather and use divine power for their own ends. NGE, anyone?
Quote:
One final note--though it is said in the concordance that the idea that the temple the cast lives in is not a Shinto temple was introduced late in the series, that is simply not true. The fact that it was a Buddhist temple was clear from its introduction in chapter three of the manga, where the monk who oversaw the temple was humbled by Belldandy's spiritual purity and left on a pilgrimage to better himself, leaving the temple in Belldandy and Keiichi's care.
Hmmm...I thought Bob said it was a Buddhist temple.
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
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Re: A few comments on the story thus far
Re: Mara not being very evil in source.
First, let me point out - DEMON. One of some rank. She had to have done something of note to the forces below to get there. It's not unreasonable to think it could be something as simple as corruption of mortals.
Second, the universe of OMB is heavily influenced by In Nomine. That affects things.
For the 10^RILLYBIGNUMBER-th time: OMB was based of the OAVs, not the manga. I have picked and chosen from the later stuff as I saw fit, and I'm taking my own interpretation on the universe. Pointing at stuff that happens in late manga as gospel may apply to the complete source, but not the universe we're using in DW. To reiterate: OMB != AMS! Comprende?
Re: Temple
I don't care what it was in the manga. In OMB it's Buddhist, because Buddha rocks.
(Honestly, I'm tired of this one, people. I'm *not* going to do a Stalinesque revision of OMB just to make the the nitpickers happy. It's an AU anyway, add it to the AU-ness of it.)
--
Christopher Angel, aka JPublic
The Works of Christopher Angel
[Image: Con.gif]
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response to responses
While the intention was simply to note the differences from the characterization and motivation of the original source material, rather than evoke a discussion on "canon" I see that I failed in getting that through. I apologize.
(As an aside, Alan Moore once noted, in the interviews for A Blazing World, I think, that there seemed to be some sort of platonic ideal for each character. Not quite sure what he meant by that, however.)
The only real "canon" issue I brought up was the issue about the temple and this was only to contradict the concordance. As noted, it is a Buddhist temple in all incarnations. It has always been a Buddhist temple since its introduction. It is simply that Doug notes that architecturally it is Shinto but with a Buddhist name. Presumably this means that there's a Torii somewhere.
Hild's motivation, given the previous poster's information, now makes perfect sense . . . for a given value of sense. That Hild would torment and taunt the goddesses simply as a way of getting closer to her daughter is in keeping with both her personality (and Urd's personality, come to that) and her nature as Daimaikaicho.
This, however, leads into my one . . . not complaint, but rather disappointment with this series. As mentioned, this series was influenced by the In Nomine RPG. Though I have not played that game, it is clear from the various resources I've researched that its precepts are basically rooted in the manichaean/zoroastian dualism. Perhaps one of the things that I enjoyed about AMG in all its forms is that it sidestepped that dualism, that concept of good vs. evil. Its villains . . . well, other than the ones that wanted to eat them or destroy the world, that is, had motivations that were not evil by their nature. Selfish, boorish, possibly mean-spirited --but not evil, really(Aoshima is probably the best example here). This eschewing of simple duality is one of the best parts of AMG. Though it is of course within the author's perview to use what elements they wish for their story, it's still a shame.
As for Mara, one wonders whether she is going to be a "demon", which is, though connotated with devil, is properly synymous with "genius"; a devil; or a jotun(though properly jotuns lived in jotunheim not the underworld). And does she live in Hell, Helheimr, or perhaps even Sheol?
As for Belldandy, it never seemed to me that she had a particular law that she wanted to lay down other than "wouldn't it be nice if everyone was nice." And even then, the bar for nice was pretty low. So long as nobody was trying to a)hit on Keiichi, b)eat her angel, c)destroy the world, she seemed pretty okay about everything. Even the frequent destruction of the temple was fine by her.
Hope this cleared things up.
-murmur
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Re: response to responses
Quote:
This eschewing of simple duality is one of the best parts of AMG. Though it is of course within the author's perview to use what elements they wish for their story, it's still a shame.
One of the things that I *prefer* over the In Nomine vision over OMG is the concept of redemption. In OMG, it doesn't matter what you do, you're a demon, which means you're a bad guy. Only by making some ridulously severe sacrifice can you fight that - usually taking youself *out* of the game, not switching sides. See Vesper, poor shmoe. Urd has to *lock away* her demon side. Gah.
Now, In Nomine gives the idea that *anyone* can be redeemed or fall - the only one exempt from that rule is the Bossman himself (and Malakim, but they're so f'd in the head...). Lucifer himself could, if he chose, be redeemed. I like that. It calls to me. That's why I used it so much. It's an important element of OMB's universe.
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As for Mara, one wonders whether she is going to be a "demon", which is, though connotated with devil, is properly synymous with "genius"; a devil; or a jotun(though properly jotuns lived in jotunheim not the underworld). And does she live in Hell, Helheimr, or perhaps even Sheol?
Mara's status is a bit interesting. Keep watching.
The thing to remember is that not all the giants were evil, just like not all the gods were good. Heck, if you want to be picky about it, the only purely *good* god in Norse Myth is Baldur, and he dies. Fun mythos, isn't it?
As far as I'm concerned, Alfheim, Asgard, Valhalla and Vanaheim are all Norse 'heavens'. Norse Hells are Hel, Niflheim, and Muspellheim. Neutral Ground and Purgatories exist in Jotunheim, Nidavellir, and Svartalfhheim.
(Yes, that's more than 9, including Midgard. To be truly precise, Valhalla is a region of Asgard. Muspellheim's existence as a world is of debate - if it does exist, then Hel and Niflheim are one world, if not, they're seperate. For practical purposes, there's 10 Norse Celestial/Infernal realms.)

Also, remember for my purposes Hild *is* Hel - why she's using a Valkyrie's name, I don't know. As Hel, she's not the greatest evil, she's just one of them, like Surtur and Loki. Lucifer is something else.--
Christopher Angel, aka JPublic
The Works of Christopher Angel
[Image: Con.gif]
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Re: A few comments on the story thus far
Quote:
For the 10^RILLYBIGNUMBER-th time: OMB was based of the OAVs, not the manga. I have picked and chosen from the later stuff as I saw fit, and I'm taking my own interpretation on the universe. Pointing at stuff that happens in late manga as gospel may apply to the complete source, but not the universe we're using in DW. To reiterate: OMB != AMS! Comprende?
Which makes your protrayal of Belldandy all the more interesting, since you've protrayed her almost exactly as she's protrayed in the new TV series.
Hmmmmm...Maybe somebody in Japan read OMB?
-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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Re: A few comments on the story thus far
Murmur, sorry for the delay. I will be offering my own thoughts on your comments, just as soon as I can.

-- Bob
---------
It's a "magical" land. I think "magical" is ancient Greek for "pain in the butt". -- Bun-Bun, Sluggy Freelance, 11/9/03
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regarding regarding
To Mr. Bob: okay, great. no problemo.
To robelk: You think so? Really? Huh. ...well, I guess..., though i'm not sure if omb's belldandy would do the instant clothes change thing in public like she did...
-murmur
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Re: regarding regarding
Quote:
To robelk: You think so? Really? Huh. ...well, I guess..., though i'm not sure if omb's belldandy would do the instant clothes change thing in public like she did...
Well,I did say "almost"...
-Rob Kelk
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Reply
identity vs. function in amg
In regards to the idea of "redemption" in the In Nomine series vs. what is there in AMG, I would argue that while there are clear demarcations of function between the gods and the demons, that does not neccessarily mean that there is a clear demarcation in identity.
Which is to say that just because the demons are demons that does not mean that they are bad. As mentioned before, there seems to be little actual "evil" in the AMG world. Even in the case of the Lord of Darkness it was a program designed to destroy the world and as such following its nature.
So while the demons function as a sort of opposition to the gods, they should not be seen as being de facto evil because of it. And if they are not evil then they do not need "redemption." Indeed, you can find cases where they work to maintain the status quo alongside the gods. (whether that's a good thing i leave to you).
And certainly the gods and goddesses that stigmatized Urd for her half-demon nature cannot be said to be saints.
On another topic entirely:
If taking the idea of the meta-god (such as The Three being the Norns as well as the Fates and the other Feminine Trinity Goddesses such as Artemis, Selene and Hecate) and applying it to all the gods, then doesn't it follow that these meta-gods are amoral by their nature since many times gods will be found in both the "good" camp as well as the "bad" camp.
Exampe: The Trickster God, who is Loki (though he goes back and forth between the good guys and the bad), Anansi, Eris (a goddess), etc. etc.
And Set who was good then became evil with the inclusion of Apep (who may be a male counterpart to Eris).
Something to think about.
Also: anybody remember who else is in the solar trinity besides Apollo? And no, I don't mean Jesus--though that is appropriate.
-murmur
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