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Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#26
Rajvik Wrote:He admits in the complaint that HE HAD NO DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of the incident in question.

I know. And how can we expect an intelligence officer to put together a plausible theory of a government's behavior based on indirect evidence?
"Kitto daijoubu da yo." - Sakura Kinomoto
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#27
(09-27-2019, 05:49 PM)Labster Wrote:
Rajvik Wrote:He admits in the complaint that HE HAD NO DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of the incident in question.

I know.  And how can we expect an intelligence officer to put together a plausible theory of a government's behavior based on indirect evidence?

I don't know Labster, Maybe he should have had the "More than half a dozen" people that "complained to him in the four months" sign the complaint as well, or told them to write the complaint. Finally, his timeline is WAY THE FUCK OFF, his first bullet line states that the issues happened over a four month period, but this is ONE phone call, MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MIND.

Now, as to the identified and self admitted extortionist, (re: Joe Biden) here is a link to a story that shows what is more likely the truth.
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/463...aine-story
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#28
There are two problems with the "Hearsay" objection. One, this is not a judicial proceeding, and therefore the rules barring hearsay do not apply. Two, regardless of the context in which it comes up, a Whistleblower Complaint is not technically Hearsay. Per the Federal Rules of Evidence
Quote:“Hearsay” means a statement that:
(1) the declarant does not make while testifying at the current trial or hearing; and
(2) a party offers in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement.
A Whistleblower complaint is not offered as evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted; It is presented as a request to investigate the truth of the matter asserted.
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#29
I'm trying to keep the formation of my opinions to sources outside the US because, right now, they're the ones with no skin in the game.

Anyway, I think you're thinking of the poison tree thing. It doesn't apply - if I call the police on someone on a barefaced lie, and they arrest that person on foot of that lie - and legally find evidence of an entirely different crime. They still had every right to search for that evidence - they had that warrant, they had a reason to believe a crime was in the process of being committed.... i

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#30
(09-27-2019, 04:03 PM)Rajvik Wrote: And both the transcript of the phone call and the complaint, which does not qualify as whistleblower,are available to read also. I will post them both shortly.

Now, as to why this doesn't count as whistleblower is because it is all HEARSAY. ...
Well, duh. Of course it's hearsay. If it wasn't hearsay, it would never have been published - see the The Whistleblower Protection Act of 1989, 5 U.S.C. 2302(b)(8)-(9), Pub.L. 101-12 as amended. It's still a whistleblower document.

And if it isn't true but the whistleblower thought it was, he or she is protected under the False Claims Act of 1863. (Abraham Lincoln signed that one.)
--
Rob Kelk

Sticks and stones can break your bones,
But words can break your heart.
- unknown
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#31
It occurs to me that people may have some questions about the impeachment proceedings.

[Disclaimer: I am not a Lawyer. This is based on some research I did by following Wikipedia citations, my own copy of the Federalists Papers, and several online sources.]

So, the impeachment thing. First, see this Congressional Research Service Report, which is the most recent guidance on federal impeachment.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44260.pdf

1. It is useful at this point to keep in mind we only have 3 Presidential impeachments, two of which have gone to trial in the Senate. That's a very small sample size.

Interesting fact, tho. Johnson was tried for impeachment in 1868, the election year. The fact that the American people would vote in November did not prevent the Senate from voting on impeachment in March.

2. Impeachment is for "Treason, Bribery, High Crimes and Misdemeanors." It is entirely undefined what any of this means. It is not settled that "Treason" in this context must mean the same as the definition of "Treason against the United States" as defined in Article III (although the consensus here is it probably is). This is in part because it is unclear whether impeachment is a criminal trial or something else.

The general consensus is "something else." Federal impeachment is a unique facet of the Constitution. While it draws on certain historical precedent, it should be recalled that the idea of rendering the Executive formally accountable to the legislative branch through a right of removal was one of the experiments of the Constitution. Notably, Hamilton in the Federalist Papers describes impeachment as reserved for those guilty of "abuse or violation of some public trust." (Federalist 65). Jefferson, in fact, argued that impeachment was a legitimate form of removal when he sought to impeach Supreme Court Justice Samuel Chase for "partisan rulings." This view lost the fight historically, which is a good thing for the overall stability of the country.

Accordingly, acts of the President may be grounds for impeachment WHETHER OR NOT THE ACTS CONSTITUTE A PROSECUTABLE OFFENSE. This is a vital point to keep in mind, as it will be obscured quite a bit. Mind you, given the gravity of impeachment, we have generally tried to limit to matters that could lead to criminal prosecution, but not always.

Another important take away from this is that if you hear people saying that because this is a trial the standard is the same as for a criminal trial -- that is nonsense. For one thing, that isn't the standard for indictment, which is the equivalent of what the House does. If this were a criminal trial, then the House would vote to try an impeachment on probable cause.

Likewise, there is no clear legal standard by which to judge whether any of the acts of President Trump rise to the level of an impeachable offense. There is certainly plenty of grist for the mill. Which brings me to the next point.

3. Unlike the Independent counsel's report, which is bounded by a specific referral and limited to specific acts, investigation into possible impeachment is wide-ranging. All Presidential acts and conduct are fair game. So while the event that pushed a majority of Dems over the edge to impeachment may have been the allegations that Trump attempted to coerce the President of the Ukraine into launching a corruption investigation against Joe Biden's son  Hunter, the investigation is not limited to this specific matter. Everything from the emoluments clause accusation to allegations of obstruction of justice to lying about an affair with Stormy Daniels is fair game for consideration.
“We can never undo what we have done. We can never go back in time. We write history with our decisions and our actions. But we also write history with our responses to those actions. We can leave the pain and the damage in our wake, unattended, or we can do the work of acknowledging and fixing, to whatever extent possible, the harm that we have caused.”

— On Repentance and Repair: Making Amends in an Unapologetic World by Danya Ruttenberg
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#32
Please avoid the current BS by calling it a "transcript" it is NOT a word for word transcript as it specifically says on the first page

"CAUTION: A Memorandum of a Telephone Conversation.· (TELCON) is not a verbatim transcript of a
discussion. The text in this document records the notes and recollections of Situation Room Duty
"Officers and-NSC policy staff assigned to listen.and memorialize the conversation in written form
as the conversation takes place. A numper of factors can affect 'the accuracy of the reco?d,
including poor telecommunications connections and variations in accent and/or interpretation.
The word "inaudible" is used to indifate portions of a conversation that the notetaker was unable
to hear."

It is at best a summary/recreation from notes and memories of the listeners. This can be both a positive and/or a negative aspect in the current political bruhaha. If there is a true transcript, it has not been released as yet.

It annoys me that I've seen it stated multiples times "transcript, transcript, transcript" when it is not such. Especially when it's being screamed in a way to skew the perception of the report.

RMH
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#33
Citations

1. Main article to get and idea and the citations section: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachm...ted_States

2. Federalist 65 (online copy): https://www.congress.gov/resources/displ...tPapers-65

3. Andrew Johnson impeachment:
http://www.famous-trials.com/Johnson
http://www.andrewjohnson.com/default.htm...s%20Weekly?
https://www.c-span.org/video/?26896-1/gr...peachments
https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/his...ohnson.htm

4. Samuel Chase impeachment:
https://www.fjc.gov/history/timeline/sam...-impeached
https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/his...ustice.htm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Chase
“We can never undo what we have done. We can never go back in time. We write history with our decisions and our actions. But we also write history with our responses to those actions. We can leave the pain and the damage in our wake, unattended, or we can do the work of acknowledging and fixing, to whatever extent possible, the harm that we have caused.”

— On Repentance and Repair: Making Amends in an Unapologetic World by Danya Ruttenberg
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#34
Something else to keep in mind is that while the whistleblower complaint may be inadmissable in court on account of hearsay, everything the Congress digs up through its oversight authority, which is broad, sweeping and with very few limits while compelling organizations and not people to hand over evidence about the conduct of the organizations (and the people working for them).

Which largely means the 4th and 5th Amendements of the USA Constitution do not apply, and any evidence the Congress finds, it can hand over to the courts without there being any question of their admissability. Because they are, they were acquired legally as a result of Congress oversight authority finding things that need further proceedings in court.
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#35
Not to worry! I mean, it's not like the White House is filled with greedy, short-sighted assholes with court appearances stretching back decades and a history of fraud, right? Right?
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#36
(09-27-2019, 06:59 PM)SilverFang01 Wrote: 3. Unlike the Independent counsel's report, which is bounded by a specific referral and limited to specific acts, investigation into possible impeachment is wide-ranging. All Presidential acts and conduct are fair game. So while the event that pushed a majority of Dems over the edge to impeachment may have been the allegations that Trump attempted to coerce the President of the Ukraine into launching a corruption investigation against Joe Biden's son  Hunter, the investigation is not limited to this specific matter. Everything from the emoluments clause accusation to allegations of obstruction of justice to lying about an affair with Stormy Daniels is fair game for consideration.

Whew lad!

I kinda suspected Point 3 would be the case, but now that I know for sure....

Holy shit he's about to get the entire freakin' book thrown at him, isn't he?  And the best part is that a lot of the investigative footwork has already been done - it's just a matter of reviewing the information and deciding which is actually impeachable.

Here's to hoping Mike Pence gets dragged down with him.
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#37
Throwing the whole book at Trump -- and Pence? This proves that the only reason you want to do impeachment is because you don't like Trump, and you think anything you libs don't like about him is a good reason to get rid of him. Throw any fake news charge at the President, just to see what sticks. Just face up the the fact that you lost the 2016 election, BlackAeronaut.
"Kitto daijoubu da yo." - Sakura Kinomoto
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#38
(09-28-2019, 03:34 PM)Labster Wrote: Throwing the whole book at Trump -- and Pence?  This proves that the only reason you want to do impeachment is because you don't like Trump, and you think anything you libs don't like about him is a good reason to get rid of him.  Throw any fake news charge at the President, just to see what sticks.  Just face up the the fact that you lost the 2016 election, BlackAeronaut.

who are you and what have you done with Labster?

No, seriously, Most of the people would expect something like this statement out of me, in fact if i had not read more than the first few words i was going to post something similar and point out to Dartz that if you lie to get a search warrant, anything found is still considered fruit and is inadmissable, plus the person who lied is looking at serious time.

Also, guys, sorry but you have to at least admit that what Labster said here is the truth, gods forbid if Trump had said half the things Hillary did if the election had gone the other way, the media would have pounded him. But because he is a Republican, trashing him isn't just allowable, but rewarded. The American people outside the urban bubbles have become sick of it, and even in the urban bubbles, they are getting sick of it. quite frankly you have to be a die hard lib to not be.
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#39
I was just pointing out that an impeachment is not a criminal prosecution.  There will be no getting Trump to accept a plea bargain after loading up on charges.  No way to agree to, "you only get 6 more months in office."  There will be no jury of half-witted randos off the street, who the prosecutor can convince to that they must have done something wrong for him to keep you from going to work for a week.  There will be a jury of 100 persons who are all highly interested in the result of the case.

Also, impeachment is not a Festivus celebration.  There is no provision in the Constitution for airing of grievances in this process.  The more you include, the more distractions you have.  And the more distractions you have, the easier it is for people to dismiss the whole thing.  I think we can all agree that Trump is better at distractions than Pelosi is.

So if you want an impeachment to succeed, it has to be very narrowly focused.  There should be exactly two articles of impeachment.  Probably one for the crime, and one for the cover-up thereof.  Keep everything on the same topic.  The second article is so that Senators have something to vote against, so they can show that while they don't like Trump, they also hate liberal investigations.
"Kitto daijoubu da yo." - Sakura Kinomoto
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#40
I have to agree with Rajvik for once - Trump should only be impeached and possibly later charged and convicted for things that actually happened and which warrant such measures. Despite what he seems to think, this is still America and we follow the rule of law, not whoever can shout the loudest or bring the best chorus line to dance and sing to whatever tale they spin.

Okay, theoretically at least. I want to live in that America, not The People's Federal Democratic Republic of Bendoverngrabyerankelstan.
--
‎noli esse culus
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#41
Think of the House investigation more like a Grand Jury investigation. Yes, every action of the President is up for review but only specific charges can be presented to the Senate for impeachment. It’s how the GOP started with Whitewater in the 90’s but ended up presenting charges related to the Lewinski affair.

Also, impeachment only removes him from his post and bars him from holding any government post thereafter. Actual criminal charges would have to be prosecuted by the courts, in this case NY and maybe Federal courts if there are federal crimes committed.
“We can never undo what we have done. We can never go back in time. We write history with our decisions and our actions. But we also write history with our responses to those actions. We can leave the pain and the damage in our wake, unattended, or we can do the work of acknowledging and fixing, to whatever extent possible, the harm that we have caused.”

— On Repentance and Repair: Making Amends in an Unapologetic World by Danya Ruttenberg
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#42
Also, all evidence that is reviewed is part of the public record and hard to keep out of the courts if acquired as a result of the impeachment investigation. A wide ranging impeachment inquiry in the House followed by a very focused trial in the Senate with only a few matters pursued may be more likely to both remove Trump from office as well as bring down most of the higher level officials after Trump's removed from office as a result of the massive pile of evidence.
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#43
(09-28-2019, 03:34 PM)Labster Wrote: Just face up the the fact that you lost the 2016 election, BlackAeronaut.

That's a low-blow and you know it.  He only won because he is a liar, a crook, and a conman.  (And yes, I know that this is supposedly most politicians, but Trump takes the fucking cake.)  Trump wouldn't have won the election if a good number of Sander's voters hadn't voted for Trump.  I warned people that said they were voting for Trump, and I'm sure you did, too.

And not even one month into his Presidency, just about everyone that originally supported Sanders but voted for Trump had buyers remorse.  It was like the fucking Brexit referendum all over again.  "But that wasn't what I thought would happen!!!"  God, it's so hard not to call these people morons to their faces.  How they could ignore the simple logic boggles my mind.  It doesn't matter if Sanders and Trump were both populists because populism, like anything else in politics, has it's own spectrum.  Sanders is a Patriotic Populist and Trump is a Nationalist Populist.

And others voted for him just because he was spouting xenophobia, racism, and misogyny.

So yes, he did win, but he won on a platform of figurative Mountain Laurel Honey.  Oh yes.  It is honey alright, and it tastes pretty good, too.  But it carries a poison that will make you very sick, and may even kill you if you're particularly susceptible.

And it has been pointed out that there have been people dying because of Trump's policies.  Not just illegal immigrants, but also spies and other intelligence assets have been gravely endangered.  And this is to say nothing of all the people his dismantling of pollution regulations is effecting.

So don't you dare tell me that I need to "face it".  It's been in my face for the last several years, but that doesn't mean I have to say "Thank you, sir!  May I have another?" like someone in a gimp suit getting gerbils shoved up their ass.

I seem to recall someone on these boards once said that you shouldn't be upset about anything that won't effect you for less than four years.  Trump's term may only be for four years, but the shit we'll be stuck with cleaning up?  That's gonna linger for a lot longer than just four years.
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#44
(09-28-2019, 09:37 PM)Black Aeronaut Wrote:
(09-28-2019, 03:34 PM)Labster Wrote: Just face up the the fact that you lost the 2016 election, BlackAeronaut.
    [ zOMG teh angries11! ]

<starfire>I believe I have just performed what Earthlings call "possessing a lib".</starfire>

Way to overreact to a joke.  Conservatives are obsessed with how liberals want to undo 2016, but that's basically just projection of their own anxieties.  None of us liberals even talk about Hillary any more, and we think a lot more about the 2018 election and how to do that again.  Conservatives can't let it go that they won the White House with a 3 million vote deficit and can't stop blaming everyone but themselves for this show of weakness.  

Also Trump's sweetness reminds me a little more of antifreeze.
"Kitto daijoubu da yo." - Sakura Kinomoto
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#45
To be fair, he'll get several books thrown at him because it's Trump. He can't stop breaking the law, it's what he's done for decades.
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#46
Lab, do us all a favor: quit throwing "jokes" like that at me. I don't do "high brow" humor.
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#47
More on-topic: we seem to have defectors from Trump's personality cult among the GOP. Or at least one, anyways.

Trump made a tweet implying that there would be a civil war if he was impeached.

One GOP Senator has openly declared his disgust at the tweet.

It's even being reported by Fox News.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/beyond-...lams-trump
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#48
Oh for fucks sake. It's been confirmed that Trump called our PM a while back, asking him to help discredit the Mueller probe. Fuuuuuuck.
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#49
(10-01-2019, 01:21 AM)Matrix Dragon Wrote: Oh for fucks sake. It's been confirmed that Trump called our PM a while back, asking him to help discredit the Mueller probe. Fuuuuuuck.

Quid pro 'roo.

-----
Little-known fact:  "Australia" is actually an abbreviated form.  The land's full name is "AauuuggghhhhAAUUGGHHHHHstralia <whimper>."
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RE: Buckle your seatbelts, everyone....
#50
Oh Snap

Quote:The Complainant on the form he or she submitted on August 12, 2019 in fact checked two relevant boxes: The first box stated that, “I have personal and/or direct knowledge of events or records involved”; and the second box stated that, “Other employees have told me about events or records involved.”

So, first hand knowledge. And works with employees who talked about it.

Quote:As part of his determination that the urgent concern appeared credible, the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community determined that the Complainant had official and authorized access to the information and sources referenced in the Complainant’s Letter and Classified Appendix, including direct knowledge of certain alleged conduct, and that the Complainant has subject matter expertise related to much of the material information provided in the Complainant’s Letter and Classified Appendix.

Or, this is a person who works with these communications, has lawful access to these things and some form of wortwhile authority in these things.


I am struck by the sudden dread that this may be a very small pool of people who have been inadvertantly outed here.

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
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