Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
LoGG and implications for the nature of handwavium
LoGG and implications for the nature of handwavium
#1
OK, I've been thinking again (Run! Run now!), and I've had a few thoughts from what I've read in LoGG. First off...I believe that
currently that's actually viewed in canon for Fenspace? I've read some posts and comments that lead me to believe it is. If so, there are some really
interesting possibilities from it. If not, the following musing would really only hold true for the crossover universe. If you haven't read the
LoGG chapters yet and don't want some minor spoilers for them, you might want to skip the following.

First...Doug's gift worked in Fenspace. Therefore, it's not a strictly technology-only universe. This was also implied/hinted at by the Indeterminate
mana level given in the Infinite Worlds writeup, but this is the first indication we have that magic is real and can work there.

Second - handwavium seems to be able to sense/react to magic. At the very least, it certainly didn't like Doug's little foray into investigative
magery. Admittedly, it could simply be a reaction to his thoughts of what he was doing - the stuff does seem to be at the very least reactive to thought - but
it certainly looked much more like a reaction to the probing magic itself. This would imply that magic might be a part of the makeup of handwavium, or that
whoever created it at least knew of the possibility of magic.

That's as far as I'm willing to go right now with what we've seen in the story so far. If someone were to ask Skuld about it, we might get some
very interesting answers, but I'm not sure if things will develop that way. But now comes the fun part - wild-assed speculation to get people discussing
the ideas. Smile The Jason's views have been listed before - that the stuff is at least partly magical in nature. This certainly seems bumped a little in
probability by the reaction it had to Doug, but it's not conclusive. But it does lead to some lovely ideas. First, the thread that originally led me to
post the Jason's views mentioned the idea that people investigating/observing handwavium noticed all sorts of different things when they did so...things
that fit their own viewpoints on what the stuff was. If anything, the goo seems to be almost the ultimate expression of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle,
where the act of observing changes what's observed. However, it might go further than that. Perhaps handwavium has such a varied number of effects because
it's truly acting differently for every person, based on what they think it does. They might have a general idea of what a strain does - memory,
biomodding, general upgrading - but how the stuff actually works is affected by how the person THINKS it works. Perhaps some of those odd Indetermine readings
that the Infinite Worlds people are getting are from the witches and neopagans using the stuff; if it has any magical properties/components at all, it might
only exhibit them when used by someone who thinks it's magical...which could certainly cause odd fluctuations for anyone trying to detect magic.

Even wilder speculation - this one is completely out of left field, but I'm hoping it will get some interesting talk going. Perhaps the Indeterminate mana
level is because most of the magical energy is currently in a non-energy form, at least around Earth. In all sorts of interesting forms, actually - solids,
goo.... Has anyone ever thought that the stuff might be solidified/gelled MANA? And given that a number of stories talk about aspected mana, it could very well
be solidified/gelled mana with a technology aspect. How it got that way would be anybody's guess....but it might explain some of the really weird effects
we've seen with it. It might ALSO explain the reaction of the handwavium that Doug tried to examine. I'm not sure - Bob, does he draw in ambient mana
when he's using his gift at all? If so, and if he was holding something that was actually solid mana, that could explain why it seemed to implode.
He started to use his gift while holding it, it reacted to the song, but also started to be absorbed to power the song - a feedback loop? That might also
explain why he was knocked unconscious.

So - thoughts? Am I ready for the comfy sweater with the wrap-around arms yet? It's been a while since we've discussed handwavium's nature, so I
thought we were up for another go at it.
Reply
 
#2
... Wow. This would definitely be very cool.

Heh. Funny thought: can't wait for Skuld to meet Midnight. She'd probably say that Midnight is beautiful. ^_^;
Reply
 
#3
Y'know, I love it when somebody dissects what I write. It gives me so many more ideas about the story...
Quote:I believe that currently that's actually viewed in canon for Fenspace?
I'm treating it as such. We've already seen some of the fallout - Sora leaving the Stellvians to join the VVS, and the existance of the Whole Fenspace Catalog.
Quote:First...Doug's gift worked in Fenspace. Therefore, it's not a strictly technology-only universe. This was also implied/hinted at by the Indeterminate mana level given in the Infinite Worlds writeup, but this is the first indication we have that magic is real and can work there.
There's also the fact that as far as Fenspace is concerned, Doug is an extradimensional entity ("Ia! Ia! Sangnoir ftaghan!") - he might have the ability to reject Fenspace's reality and substitute his own. Or maybe he was carrying a magical "charge", and the Indeterminate Mana level of Fenspace was just the Infinity research team picking up deposits of Doug's magic. I do like your idea, though. (But I'm not the one who needs to be convinced...)
Quote:If someone were to ask Skuld about it, we might get some very interesting answers,
And we might get some useful answers if instead we ask... oh, but that's a throwaway-joke surprise for the epilogue. (Besides, nobody's going to think to ask her.)
Quote:But now comes the fun part - wild-assed speculation to get people discussing the ideas. Smile
Bring it on... 8)
Quote:If anything, the goo seems to be almost the ultimate expression of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, where the act of observing changes what's observed.
Which also explains why it looked different for each of the First Fen. Hmmmmm...

Quote:Heh. Funny thought: can't wait for Skuld to meet Midnight. She'd probably say that Midnight is beautiful. ^_^;
"Working SR-71s? I want one!"

"We couldn't possibly fit it through the portals we open between universes, Skuld."

"Aaaaawwwwwwwwww... Pretty please, Leese?"

"No."

""

Yayoi looked at Skuld in surprise. "How can you say a pout?"

"I'm a goddess. I'm not limited to mortal language. And I still want a SR-71."
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Reply
 
#4
*cackle* Well, I definitely prefer Doug to Cthulhu....he's much cuter. And you're right, Doug having a magical charge and the Infinite Worlds team
picking that up is a possibility, maybe even a strong one. The same could be said for Lisa and Makoto when they transformed; again, a magical charge held from
their previous universes. I'd still be more inclined to treat it as Fenspace having its own magical field, but you can't rule out the other
possibility.

Quote: ""




Yayoi looked at Skuld in surprise. "How can you say a pout?"

*grins* You do realize that if Skuld leaves, and the Jason finds out that she was there - the REAL one - and he didn't get to meet her, Noah's going to
be facing pouts from another direction? Some of us Skuld fans regard her as the goddess of mad scientists, after all....so the sulking neopagan mad scientist
chibi will probably be giving you the sad 'kicked-puppy' eyes. And his daughters might want to have words with you too...since she could be considered
a cousin at the very least. Smile *laughs* Just a warning as to possible fallout. Wink
Reply
 
#5
Quote:Bob, does he draw in ambient mana
when he's using his gift at all?
Yes.  I know I've mentioned somewhere that his magegift is always consuming local mana, "processing" it, and leaking back out unfocused magic -- which is what causes his field.
Quote:"We couldn't possibly fit it through the portals we open between universes, Skuld."
At which point Luna Lovegood starts talking shrinking charms...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Reply
 
#6
Quote: Bob Schroeck wrote:


Quote: "We couldn't possibly fit it through the portals we open between universes, Skuld."
At which point Luna Lovegood starts talking shrinking charms...

And Lisa mutters "You're not helping."
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin
Reply
 
#7
Another idea that almost certainly wouldn't be canon, but might make a good altiverse story or thread, would be if the presence of so much magic in
fenspace triggered some strains of handwavium to start producing actual magical effects (eh, just an idea).
Reply
 
#8
Quote: Timote wrote:


Quote: Bob Schroeck wrote:


Quote: "We couldn't possibly fit it through the portals we open between universes, Skuld."
At which point Luna Lovegood starts talking shrinking charms...


And Lisa mutters "You're not helping."

And Benjamin rants says (if the time frame is just right), "Shit. If she is the real deal, then we'll give her one of the production
models we're working on. With a shrinking charm. Besides, shouldn't you be able to adjust the size of the portal? Be a pretty messed up spell if you
couldn't. Unless it's a case of power required for the larger sized portal, then I think Skuld and I would have to put our heads together and figure
something out. And why are you all looking at me like I'm insane? If she really is Skuld, The Goddess of Technology of the Norse Pantheon, then that
means she's also in charge of the Valkyries. An armed Blackbird strikes me as appropriate."
Reply
 
#9
Quote:And why are you all looking at me like I'm insane? If she really is Skuld, The Goddess of Technology of the Norse Pantheon, then that means she's also in charge of the Valkyries. An armed Blackbird strikes me as appropriate.

Chris Marsden smiles, nods, and pulls out his wallet, dropping a Titanium AmEx on the table. "Just charge it to my account."
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
Reply
 
#10
Okay, if this ends up canon, I'm going to have to change some details in the back end of GGG...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Reply
 
#11
If it ends up canon, then it'll be Yayoi and Lisa making a quick tour of interesting places in the Main Belt while Kohran, Sora, Skuld, and Kaolla help Wiregeek and Sparky repair the Pinafore. (That's "repair", not "upgrade and outfit with weapons systems", Kohran. Sometimes it's a hospital ship.) Skuld's presence will be over a vidcom link only. Thus, Luna might not even hear about the Blackbirds until after it's too late to suggest a shrink spell.

As for portal size, note that Lisa said "the portals we open", not "the portals we can open". She's worked with reporters for long enough to know a few tricks with language...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Reply
 
#12
Quote: robkelk wrote:

If it ends up canon, then it'll be Yayoi and Lisa making a quick tour of interesting places in the Main Belt while Kohran, Sora, Skuld, and Kaolla help
Wiregeek and Sparky repair the Pinafore. (That's "repair", not "upgrade and outfit with weapons systems", Kohran. Sometimes
it's a hospital ship.) Skuld's presence will be over a vidcom link only. Thus, Luna might not even hear about the Blackbirds until after it's too
late to suggest a shrink spell.




As for portal size, note that Lisa said "the portals we open", not "the portals we can open". She's worked with reporters for long
enough to know a few tricks with language...
I apologize if any of the following is OOC. It just struck me.

Yayoi: "What are your ships doing with that little asteroid over there?"

Benjamin: "Munitions tests. We've been working on some new toys. Right now they're using one of our Gravity Bomb test-types."

Yayoi: *With Glare 'O' Doom in her glasses* "What exactly is a Gravity Bomb?"

*All watch as the asteroid implodes on itself.*

Benjamin: "Exactly what it sounds like."

Yayoi: *Presses herself against the Bullet Boy Express's window, a rivulet of drool hanging off the corner of her mouth.*

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

Gina: "Jess? You sure you got these people in hand?"

Jess: "Sure. Stitch is keeping the younger tourists entertained up in the biodome while the adults watch and take turns getting some dinner. Why?"

Gina: "Not them. THEM!"

*Points at Kohran, Sora, Kaolla, Wiregeek and Sparky as they work on the Pinafore, with Skuld's direction by vidcom, in the massive
repair/maintenance bay normally used for the Peacemakers. The situation is, as guessed, devlolving.*

Jess: "Oh? That? I wouldn't worry until they begin to uncrate munitions or break out raw handwavium or something like that."

Gina: o_o;

Amendment to Benjamin's rant:

"Then again, you do have some pretty heavy hitters on your team, so I wouldn't know for sure if you'd really need it."

You know, if they do walk away with a 'bird, Ben's not gonna want to let them take one that's stock. He'll want to make sure that it actually
suits their needs and is willing to perform such outfitting at his own expense. He kinda has the same mentality Skuld did about Doug's bike. (Could she
help them install a suitable portal generator in that thing? Be a bad-ass way to travel.)

Hell, I think Skuld will just love Ben on general principal because he is such a gear head and is such a perfectionist in that respect. That and he has cool
projects. Build a corps of space fighters complete with bad-ass support ships? Check. Race a hot-rodded space-sedan (that he fixed up himself) at suicidal
speeds through an asteroid field? Check. Tinker around with wave-tech engine systems just for fun? Check. Get in on science projects with some
freaky-yet-cool kids around her age with nearly-mad-scientist-zeal? Check.

Yay or nay? ^_^;;
Reply
 
#13
a factor against the Girls getting a blackbird could be time. How long are they willing/able to stay in Fenspace?
___________________________
"I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." - George Carlin
Reply
 
#14
Quote:a factor against the Girls getting a blackbird could be time. How long are they willing/able to stay in Fenspace?
Not very long. They arrived at 11:19 GMT 29 May 2013; current plan is that they leave at ~07:07 GMT 5 June 2013. And they're on the move for most of that.

(Both the short visit and the constant moving about are so that they don't meet Haruhi. As I said months ago, it's ironic and funny if the person who most wants to meet extradimensional visitors never does.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Reply
 
#15
Quote:Yay or nay? ^_^;;
Reply Hazy - Ask Again Later.

(Gotta think about the rest of the story, and whether/how this would fit in...)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Reply
 
#16
Of course, of course. It'll be perfectly fine if they can't accept the 'bird after all - that was just me having some fun with the idea.

Is Haruhi really on the move that much herself?
Reply
 
#17
Normally, I'd say she's nowhere near as mobile as she is chasing the "Girls." I mean, yes she WOULD get frequent flier miles, but there is
usually enough "interesting" stuff in any given corner of Fenspace to hold her attention for a while...
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll
Reply
 
#18
.... *Snickers at the following mental imagery.*

Ben: "Hey, check this out. They got some weird radiowaves over at the Pluto Observatory. They think they might be extra-terrestrial in nature."

Haruhi: "REALLY!?" *Damn near breaks the sound barrier as she zooms off.*

Jess: "... Wow. I can't believe she fell for it."

Gina: "I just can't believe how fast that girl moved. She's gotta have some kind of biomod."
Reply
 
#19
First off, I really should've gotten around to responding to this earlier, but the dreaded Con Plague finally managed to sneak up on me after five virus-free years and knocked me flat for a good couple of days. I've only just regained the synapses necessary for anything more complex than snark, so here we go.

First off, the Infinity registering of "indeterminate mana" is part & parcel of keeping the whole mystery of handwavium mysterious. That's the OOC answer; fudging the results just to fuck with the audience.

IC, Infinity honestly doesn't know what to make of Fenspace (excuse me, Gernsback-2). They measure mana in a simple gradient: None, Low, Medium, High, Very High and Holy Shit Magical Chernobyl. Most of the time Gernsback-2 registers as a no-mana world, but sometimes it flucutates. Infinity is used to worlds with hotspots, but finding a world where the mana level jumps from to zero to low and then back again in six hours all over the solar system and completely at random is a little unsettling, to say the least.

So that's what's going on with the mana level. Paralabs has no clue as to how or why, but since the natives blame everything weird on handwavium... well, why not?

Fenian Wrote:Even wilder speculation - this one is completely out of left field, but I'm hoping it will get some interesting talk going. Perhaps the Indeterminate mana level is because most of the magical energy is currently in a non-energy form, at least around Earth. In all sorts of interesting forms, actually - solids, goo.... Has anyone ever thought that the stuff might be solidified/gelled MANA? And given that a number of stories talk about aspected mana, it could very well be solidified/gelled mana with a technology aspect. How it got that way would be anybody's guess....but it might explain some of the really weird effects we've seen with it. It might ALSO explain the reaction of the handwavium that Doug tried to examine. I'm not sure - Bob, does he draw in ambient mana when he's using his gift at all? If so, and if he was holding something that was actually solid mana, that could explain why it seemed to implode. He started to use his gift while holding it, it reacted to the song, but also started to be absorbed to power the song - a feedback loop? That might also explain why he was knocked unconscious.

This is a thought I'd be a little more receptive towards if I hadn't had to smack somebody down for godmodding and overusing the "handwavium is magic!" thing. Don't get me wrong, as theories go it makes as much sense as anything else, but having it be crystalized magic... ehhhhnh.

So, yeah. I'm willing to be convinced, but the burden of proof is higher than "is it neat," you'll have to convince me that I won't have to throttle people left & right for treating handwavium like D&D magic.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
Reply
 
#20
Glad you're getting over the Con Crud, Mal. never good stuff, that. And thanks for specifying what was going on with the mana level a bit more. That's
definitely interesting.

Quote: So that's what's going on with the mana level. Paralabs has no clue as to how or why, but since the natives blame everything weird on handwavium...
well, why not?

Heh - actually, this is part of what got me to thinking about handwavium as mana. If even Paralabs was blaming handwavium for their odd readings, I thought it
might be amusing if they were absolutely correct.

I don't insist on this being accurate. It's something that the Jason might follow, but that's given his/my own inclinations and beliefs. I'm
perfectly happy for it to be a theory. My real goal was to toss the idea out and to get people discussing the nature of handwavium again. There are usually a
few neat ideas brought to light every time we kick the topic around. Most of the time, handwavium is viewed as something strictly tech-based, even if so
advanced it could be considered magic. I thought I'd try to get people looking at it from the other direction, and see if any interesting ideas or thoughts
would spring up. *grin* Now...if the Jason winds up meeting Skuld or one of the others, or at least finding out that some real magic workers were around,
he'll probably tag this theory far higher - in his OWN opinion - in the list of possibilities for how the goo works. That doesn't affect HOW it works,
though. No sudden D&D magic. Even if it IS mana, it's tech-aspected mana; it has to have at least a passing nod to technology to do its thing.
Ultimately, you'd have to have sensors capable of detecting magical energy before you could even try to argue the case fully...

*snicker* Now, there's a fun thought...trying to con...ahem, convince the Professor to design sensors for detecting 'unusual' types of energy.
Either without ever quite mentioning 'magical' energy, or else putting quite a bit of spin on it. Ah well. Something else for the Jason to do...in his
copious free time. Smile
Reply
 
#21
Just to let folks know, I'm going to stop contributing to this thread. I'm spending too much time writing about writing, and not enough actually
writing...

(Oh, and I got your email, Kevin. I think I can work that in.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)