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US Navy options for the future--probably stating the obvious.
 
#51
robkelk Wrote:I just put this on the Timelords' FenWiki page:

The Whovians' militia, '''U.N.I.T.''', uses the NATO grade structure with the British Army names for ranking their forces. They have a small headquarters element and a recruiting office in The Citadel of the Time Lords, maintain a liaison office with [[Great Justice] on [[Arisia Station], and rent hangar space from [[the Roughriders] for their single squadron of 'waved Spitfires; they otherwise do not have any standing forces.

While the Timelords contract with the [[Space Patrol] to police 3325 TARDIS, the faction's '''Torchwood''' group serves the same role as the Patrol's Section 6.And, some rumours claim, Section 9.

(And now I have to log off. The real world calls - I'm going to go take some photos and finally meet SkyKnight face-to-face...)
http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/rep ... eply-87161
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-

NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children
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#52
Interesting little tidbit. Ships with designations like BB and DD and CC are nothing special, really. Up until 1920 they used to be B, C, D (B-1, B-2, C-1, C-2, D-1, D-2, etc). This is because at around 1920, other classifications like Battlecruiser, Escort Cruiser, and Submarine Destroyer all started getting two letter designations. For uniformity's sake, the Designations B, and D were changed to BB, and DD. (Cruisers were a lot more complicated - not getting into that morass.)

Anyhow, freaking the fen with the idea of the US having a strong military presence was never my idea. It's been on my mind lately, occupying a decent share of my mental bandwidth. Thus, I've put some thought into the matter. As always, these are only my thoughts on the matter. Discuss and kibitz as you see fit.

Things wouldn't begin to happen until sometime around 2016. By this time, the USA has been enjoying the perks of open trade with the Fen. The reason for this is because safe healthy food is scarce among the Fen, making them primarily importers. Granted, money is a bit of a problem at first since the Fen economy doesn't play by the same rules most others go by. As a sort of middle grounds, payment is made with various processed metal ingots, such as iron, copper, aluminum, and even silver and gold, based on the market value of said metals. (The reason for the broad range of metals is so as not to drastically upset the values of any one particular metal, precious or otherwise.)

This massive source of export for the US is able to offset the they even more massive trade deficit. Combined with judicious cuts in government spending, the USA is finally able to achieve an economic equilibrium it has not known for many decades.

However, in any case where there is lucrative trade over long distances, there is bound to be piracy. The dregs of the Boskonian Empire, beaten and bushwhacked by the Fen, make a comeback as pirates raiding supply lines cutting through the less civilized areas of the the System, taking both food and metal ingots to feed themselves and rebuild. The first raids in 2016-17 are small and dismissed as being tragic but unavoidable. However, the Boskonians begin to become more brazen as they feed off of the supply lines.

The Fen step up their patrols, but the last straw was when the Roughriders lost two wings of of VF-1S Veritech Fighters and a Peacemaker to a massive Boskonian Assault that captured one cargo ship, disabled two more, and heavily damaged a fourth. Benjamin himself got a few minutes of time with a joint congressional session, during which he verbally beat both the Senate and the House of Representatives for their lack of foresight in the matter. To paraphrase his colorful speech, Ben stated that while he could replace ships quickly, he could not replace the dead among his ranks, and that if the US wanted the Roughriders to continue to assist in protecting their assets then it was time they provided some firepower as well.

To drive the matter home, he went on to illustrate a plan to take destroyer squadron of aging Arleigh Burke-class DDGs and refit them for space flight and combat. His pitch included cost for research and development, cost to lift the hulls into orbit, materials and man-hours for the refit process, and even the ongoing program to man and operate the ships. The over-all cost left heads spinning - not due to the project being too costly, but instead well within the confines of the government's over-all budget. When asked how Ben could substantiate such a small cost, he went on to produce the recent fiscal year's operational costs at 36 Atalante and the next year's projected costs, verified by a reputable 'danelaw auditor.

Additionally, after the Airforce and TSAB's budgetary bungling and the Navy quietly currying favor, the outcome was inevitable.

Two destroyer squadrons and two Ticonderoga-class cruisers are massively refitted. Fen consultants are brought in to ensure not only that the job is done right with as few handwavium quirks as possible. Commander Dodge is instrumental here in liaising between the Fen and the USN, as well in drawing up the standard operating procedures and safety precautions for sailors working in space. Beginning in 2018, the over all construction time takes four years, but this is with crews working in three shifts around the clock. Needless to say that there are some minor, manageable quirks among the fleet.

The two DESRONs (really, Cruiser-Destroyer Squadrons) each consist of one Cruiser, five Destroyers, and two Frigates. Fen technology has permitted a heavy degree of automation, thus reducing the space needed for computers and living spaces. On Cruisers, this extra space is utilized as the living quarters and offices of DESRON staff. For Destoyers, additional weapon systems and ammunition spaces are added, as well as hangar and stores for two F/A-18S Star Hornets. (That part rankled the Airforce to no end.) The Frigates, with new additions to their stripped down weapon systems, now carry a platoon of Marines each and are additionally equipped with breaching airlocks. (The four platoons embarked on the four frigates of the two DESRONs make up a full Company of Marines.)

Because the ventral areas of the ships present a large blind spot for weapon systems of the ships, standard tactics are to have each cover for the other's blind spot where possible. additional armor is also applied and has, thus far, proven nigh invulnerable to all but the most potent weapons. Of course, Navy knows Murphy was a Squid and try not to tempt fate too much.

The first ship to start their space trials was the USS Ticonderoga (CG(S)-47), followed by the USS Yorktown (CG(S)-48), and then the USS Boone (FFG(S)-28), the USS Stephen W. Groves (FFG(S)-29), the USS Crommelin (FFG(S)-37) and the USS Curts (FFG(S)-38). The Destroyers themselves did not come until two years later while awaiting the budgeting for more new ships to replace them.
The destroyers were USS Arleigh Burke (DDG(S)-51), the USS Bary (DDG(D)-52), the USS John Paul Jones (DDG(S)-53), the USS Curtis Wilbur (DDG(S)-54), the USS Stout (DDG(S)-55), the USS John S. McCain (DDG(S)-56), the USS Mitscher (DDG(S)-57), the USSLaboon (DDG(S)-58), the USS Russel (DDG(S)-59), and the USS Paul Hamilton (DDG(S)-60)

The initial home-port is in Wavium-friendly Sasebo, Japan (and moored faaaaaaaaaarrrrrr from the other ships) until their base of operations gets up and running over at L-4. What will be really striking about this facility is that while it is your standard space-rock-turned-space-colony, it's also an orbital resort fit to compete with Stelvia. This not only provides ample R&R for servicemen and civilian contractors, but opens the door a bit wider American enterprise among the Fen as verious commercial establishments open up for business on New Guam.
In 2030 an additional DESRON was assembled to help cover growing trade between NATO allies and the Fen as it began to grow exponentially, and then again in 2035. Having a carrier waved is thought of, but seen as overkill as the total presence required at this time is easily seen to by four DESRONs and four Cruisers. However, one Cruiser, The USS Thomas S. Gates (AX(S)-51) had a badly botched job due to a catastrophic handwavium spill was set aside for use as a training vessel (after the amount of quirks the ship took on, life on the other ships is a breeze by comparison). This resulted in there being one additional Cruiser among the stars, but she's so quirky that she's practically a Fen-ship herself.
How bad is it? All the Gunners Mates have to maintain perpetual five o'clock shadows or else the guns won't work. No one that has shaved that morning may set foot into any of the ship's gun mounts. One gun mount even requires a small blood sacrifice before a live-fire shoot while the other must have a Tiki Mask idol maintained at all times. The engineers must maintain a shrine to Our Blessed Lady of Acceleration or else efficiency drops by ten percent, daily. The Captain must be well versed in either Gilbert and Sullivan or the Horatio Hornblower novels - take your pick. No matter what the ICs do, the General Quarters klaxon sounds just like the one from the Star Trek - The Motion Picture complete with the robotic voice saying "RED ALERT." If duck tape is not used in an electrical repair by an EM, then that repair will fail within 24 hours. Torpedoes must be reminded that you are NOT Lew Zeeland and that you DEFINITELY DO NOT WANT THEM TO COME BACK! (Fortunately, the first time this happened it was with an exercise torpedo.) For some reason, eldritch horrors live in the broom closet on the galley. If you ask nicely, they'll hand you the cleaning supplies and take them back when you're done. Any kind of jam cannot come within thirty feet of the Combat Information Center or else it jams all the equipment, QED. There is an albatross living on the ship. Nobody wants to take the chance of the thing up and dying on them, so they keep the gooney bird alive and in good spirits. The engines will not run unless you dump a bottle of Jim Weed into the fuel header tanks once a week - any other hard liquor will do, but Jim weed has the best effect (think about it - these were originally jet engines... now they're in space). The temperature in the berthing spaces is either a steamy eighty degrees or a chilly fifty degrees. The only way to get it to cool down is by singing a song about penguins once every twelve hours. The showers only give hot water after you knock "Shave And A Haircut" on the pipes. The ships AI demands to have 'A Good Old Smoker' once a week. Curiously enough, no matter how badly one person beats another in a Smoker, all injuries will be minor no matter how bad it looks. The grog ration has been reinstated. You do not have to indulge if you do not wish to, however you do not ask about why it was reinstated or else there will be no grog for anyone for a week. Patriot Day is once a month. The pledge of allegiance must be recited - pick your own deity for THAT part, but you will say it even if it's "One nation under Zule", followed by the Star Spangled Banner, the Sailors Creed, Anchors Away, and then followed by fireworks, a barbeque, dueling guitars, and a war movie. The door to the HAZMAT locker will not open unless you are wearing a radiation hazard suit. Geiger counter not required, but recommended. If someone in the pilot house starts playing a rock song with Hell as a theme (like Highway To Hell or Hell's Bells) the stacks will shoot huge columns of lurid flames that leave trails of malignant looking black smoke. Even though the main guns are now large-caliber coil guns, there will always be a flash of flame whenever they shoot. The folks at Dahlgren have yet to figure this one out.
The list goes on and on.
So, thoughts?
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#53
works for me mostly. It does occur to me that there is one good reason to have a carrier... mobile airbase for really deep space patrols. the way out un-real estate like past jupiter, where solid ground is few and far between.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-

NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children
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#54
blackaeronaut Wrote:AMERICA, FUCK YEAH

I have objections, but right now it'll take more time & mental horsepower than I can spare to articulate them properly. Watch this space for details.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
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#55
M Fnord Wrote:
Quote:blackaeronaut wrote:

Quote:AMERICA, FUCK YEAH

FM: Marsden, C V

TO: Dodge, CPT T

I've got five bucks on the Roughriders. You in?
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
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#56
M Fnord Wrote:
Quote:blackaeronaut wrote:

AMERICA, FUCK YEAH
I have objections, but right now it'll take more time & mental horsepower than I can spare to articulate them properly. Watch this space for details.

Let me guess:
  • The USN already assigned all its Fen and Fendanes to the Stingray - says so in the boat's description. Who's going to crew this fleet?
  • A lot of Fen came Up to get away from these people, and they're not going to like this. Especially the ex-pat Russians like that guy in charge of the Ninja.
  • Didn't we just decide to demilitarize Fenspace in Season 2?

No, wait - those are my objections, not Mal's. However, in matters of Fenspace policy, I can be argued with...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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#57
Having had time to think about it, my objections:

First, the United States doesn't have 'open trade' with Fenspace. Fenspace has much better trade and diplomatic relations with Canada, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, the EU, Russia and India than it does with the US. The main difference between the USA and the PRC is that the USA at least tolerates Fen tourists - most of the time, and mainly in the larger cities.

Second, the Fen economy plays by the same rules as most economies.

Third, why is Benjamin berating the United States Congress for not protecting the internal trade of a nation that it is at best neutral and at worst mildly hostile to? Why isn't he bringing this to Convention authorities - Great Justice, the Patrol, Starfleet, the Republic Navy, the SSX Base Pirates, the Sammies, the Soviets, Stellvia, AEUG or the Rangers? These are the people who're responsible for the safety of the Belt and trans-Jovian space, not the US Navy.

Fourth, why would the Congress accept this drubbing from a non-citizen and then accept his proposals, instead of patting him on the head and sending him on his way? Possibly with a persona-non-grata order on him?

Fifth, why would a nation that is at best neutral and at worst mildly hostile to the United States and its interests accept a Great White Fleet of four destroyer squadrons freely operating in it's territory?

Sixth, with all this hardware now in orbit what's to stop the United States from deciding 'okay, we've got the guns, so you're now officially a territory under our jurisdiction'?

Seventh, do you really want to start a Fen-Earth war? Seriously, as written your 'not strong military presence' would spark a war, because it's a blatant show of imperialistic force that multiple NPC and PC factions would oppose. I mean, if this passed as written I'd steer the Soviets away from exploration and towards ejecting the Navy (not to mention the Roughriders) with all due speed and by any means necessary. Is that really what you're aiming for?
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
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#58
Wot Mal and Rob said. For that matter, wot I said on page 3, especially the second to last paragraph; the one regarding KKVs and open war and whatnot.
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#59
Maybe we should delay the decision to get some more Earth military up into space to a coming Season 3? The situation might be much different after the 'age of exploration', maybe we decide the US navy can play in the solar system at that time without being a danger to the balance of power?
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#60
Didn't we have this discussion a couple of years ago?

I seem to remember a whole lot of ideas planned out for a "cold war" between Earth and the Convention, with scenes like a USAF patrol being shadowed by a VVS patrol to echo the US/USSR patrol flights of the 1960s and 1970s, and one of the stations (maybe Stellvia - I think this was before we populated the L5 point) becoming a latter-day Vienna... and nobody ever actually wrote anything with the ideas.

Exploration, OTOH, is something that actually generates stories, as both Mal and Dartz have shown.

If I'm remembering this correctly, then I have a big meta objection to this: It will stifle creativity in the setting.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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#61
M Fnord Wrote:Seventh, do you really want to start a Fen-Earth war? Seriously, as written your 'not strong military presence' would spark a war, because it's a blatant show of imperialistic force that multiple NPC and PC factions would oppose. I mean, if this passed as written I'd steer the Soviets away from exploration and towards ejecting the Navy (not to mention the Roughriders) with all due speed and by any means necessary. Is that really what you're aiming for?

It had been two months since the USN had used mass-driver weapons to destroy Arisia Station, the White Tower, Port Phobos, Starbase 1, Mos Eisley, Coruscant, New Yavin, Stellvia, Gagarin Base, Black Mesa, the Crystal Cities, and other major Fen installations.

Sora Hasegawa had assumed control of the VVS and StellviaCorp by right of being the only executive left alive in either faction. The two other remaining war leaders were putting her first plan into effect: Cal Calrissian was riding a space rock outfitted with the largest Grav-Master yet seen, and Erin Simmah was waiting at the controls of the Avenger to take him off the rock when it became too late for the 'Danes to do anything about their operation.

At 12:00:07 - two months to the minute after the destruction of the 37 Fides research base - the space rock would impact, and Arlington would be no more.


I'd call this a Bad End for the entire "Fenspace" writing project...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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#62
I recall a Heinlein story that ended up with using mass drivers on the moon to destroy, among any capacity of Earth's major forces to get stuff into cislunar space, more or less every major Earth landmark. I could just as easily see that.

It's not any better of a result.
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#63
robkelk Wrote:Didn't we have this discussion a couple of years ago?
That was before my time here...

Quote:I seem to remember a whole lot of ideas planned out for a "cold war" between Earth and the Convention, with scenes like a USAF patrol being shadowed by a VVS patrol to echo the US/USSR patrol flights of the 1960s and 1970s, and one of the stations (maybe Stellvia - I think this was before we populated the L5 point) becoming a latter-day Vienna... and nobody ever actually wrote anything with the ideas.
Storyplots like this are very difficult to do in a joined worldbuilding setting.

Quote:Exploration, OTOH, is something that actually generates stories, as both Mal and Dartz have shown.
I must admit I have still no clue what to do with the physical exploration setting, but I have enough other things to explore until I will need it. Wink

(editSmile
One thing is sure... an open war between Fenspace and one of the mayor military powers of Earth will be a disaster for the Fenspace project. Because it limits the amount of stories that can fit into Fenspace.
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#64
KJ Wrote:I recall a Heinlein story that ended up with using mass drivers on the moon to destroy, among any capacity of Earth's major forces to get stuff into cislunar space, more or less every major Earth landmark.
The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress - the first Heinlein and the first adult SF I ever read.

KJ Wrote:I could just as easily see that.

It's not any better of a result.
Yeah. It's far too early to declare consensus on this, though - some of the other Collective members haven't been online yet since I posted that objection.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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#65
Alright, I'll drop it.
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#66
Lets not forget that there are already a few places in Fenspace with US presence... the TSBA station and Greenwood. Maybe instead of getting someone new up there, this part could be worked on.
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#67
robkelk Wrote:
KJ Wrote:I recall a Heinlein story that ended up with using mass drivers on the moon to destroy, among any capacity of Earth's major forces to get stuff into cislunar space, more or less every major Earth landmark.

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress - the first Heinlein and the first adult SF I ever read.
I suggest you go re read it, KJ.  because with certain exceptions (Norad Spacecom) that assumption is wrong.  In fact, when they are talking about their target selection, the criteria is "Maximum instructive Schrecalect with minimum actual damage" 
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-

NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children
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#68
Star Ranger4 Wrote:
robkelk Wrote:
KJ Wrote:I recall a Heinlein story that ended up with using mass drivers on the moon to destroy, among any capacity of Earth's major forces to get stuff into cislunar space, more or less every major Earth landmark.

The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress - the first Heinlein and the first adult SF I ever read.
I suggest you go re read it, KJ.  because with certain exceptions (Norad Spacecom) that assumption is wrong.  In fact, when they are talking about their target selection, the criteria is "Maximum instructive Schrecalect with minimum actual damage" 
Which still ends up being pretty nasty. I recall (It's been a while since I read the book myself) that they publicly announced the time and location of the first impact, picked a site way out in the middle of nowhere to minimize potential casualties while demonstrating their ability to hit accurately -- and being horrified when tens of thousands of tourists went to see the impact and were obliterated in the blast. Which carnage the Earthside authorities promptly blamed on them.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
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#69
The reason the US isn't in Space in Fenspace is the same reason *random political problem* is happening IRL. Too much infighting and painting of anything to do with space other than currently exploited hard technologies such as GPS and CommSats as a media devil.

And, the folks who'd normally be champing at the bit to moderate the crazies... are up in space or being forced there by the more and more divisive political infighting.

IIRC, 'Dane US Gov't is heavily Republican-controlled, with one crazy or other getting the 2008 GOP nomination and winning on a "those geeks in space are SCARY boogie men and I'll protect you!" platform. Not as a knock against one party or another, just as a reason why the Fen were in space other than "it's cool!"
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll
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#70
True, but a booming US economy, free of the issues currently ruining things RL, after 12-16 years of Republicans in the WH lead to an almost inevitable Democratic presidency either during or immediately after the Boskone war (I'd estimate 90% likelihood the Dems take the Presidency in Fenspace!2012, 100% in 2016.)
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
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#71
... did we ever establish that Fenspace's USA didn't have the economic issues RL did? Because I'm pretty sure the Housing Bust would have happened anyway. No politicians to (directly) blame for that, just greedy fools being greedy. (Which I can very smugly say with 20/20 hindsight, natch Wink )

And a perception (whether correct or not) of imminent economic collapse might have also provided a spur for some of the non-BNF Fen to go Up.
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll
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#72
Well, we established that the Irish Housing Bust took place in Fenspace, so I can't see why the US Housing Bust couldn't also have taken place.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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#73
Yes, but we've also established that the 'wave has provided a good bit in the way of easing energy costs by allowing for practical fusion power, which is going to drive oil prices into the basement (since it won't be required for electricity generation anymore) and that will alleviate a lot of it. There will be a bubble-burst and an economic dip, but it will not be anywhere near as severe as it has been RL. Especially since a Republican president would not have thrown away trillions on "stimulus" plans that, arguably, don't work, and in a better general economic situation would not have been seen as needful by even the most strident of Keynsian.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
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#74
ECSNorway Wrote:Yes, but we've also established that the 'wave has provided a good bit in the way of easing energy costs by allowing for practical fusion power,
We have? Who's using fusion? (It's past my bedtime; I'm not remembering everything.)

ECSNorway Wrote:which is going to drive oil prices into the basement (since it won't be required for electricity generation anymore) and that will alleviate a lot of it. There will be a bubble-burst and an economic dip, but it will not be anywhere near as severe as it has been RL.
I don't know about that. If we're knocking the legs out from under the oil industry, I'd think the economic adjustment would be even more severe - and felt in more places around the world - than the one in RL.

I've established that Stellvia Oil does not do business on Earth precisely to stave off that particular economic adjustment. It's still going to happen; it's just happening slowly and with as little economic disruption as possible.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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#75
The ESA was using a fusion powered engine in the Thor Heyerdahl (in 2015). Their problem for mass deployment is that I decided the fusion tech Japan reverse engineered from the Fenspace Catalog needs Helium-3 to allow for a aneutronic fusion reaction. So they are still working on getting a reliable source of Helium-3. Don't expect them to switch to fusion for electricity generation before 2020 (a second story about ESA and the Thor Heyerdahl is in progress).
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