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CI Mind Tech
 
#26
nick012000 Wrote:
M Fnord Wrote:The who?
My character?

I... don't recall seeing a character named Adamantine Rapier. I remember seeing somebody post a concept with that name, but it stalled out when the OP didn't answer any of my questions about it. Funny, that.
Mr. Fnord interdimensional man of mystery

FenWiki - Your One-Stop Shop for Fenspace Information

"I. Drink. Your. NERDRAGE!"
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#27
No. He isn't. And he wasn't collective approved..... not yet anyway.

Shinji wasn't intentional. They didn't set out with the goal of making Shinji Ikari.... they were hoping they would get 'something that wasn't Largo', and took a few special steps to keep Jet from contaminating the mix they used. Which was something pretty generic for the job. They were expecting an original person, like Anika.

Anyway, HANDWAVIUM DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. The result might be a hollow echo, or driven by whatever show or meme he was thinking about when he died. It's finnicky that way.....
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
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#28
M Fnord Wrote:
nick012000 Wrote:
M Fnord Wrote:The who?
My character?

I... don't recall seeing a character named Adamantine Rapier. I remember seeing somebody post a concept with that name, but it stalled out when the OP didn't answer any of my questions about it. Funny, that.
Blame the forum software for that. It was making multi-quotes a giant pain in the ass at the time. It looks to be working much better now, though.

Dartz Wrote:Shinji wasn't intentional. They didn't set out with the goal of making Shinji Ikari.... they were hoping they would get 'something that wasn't Largo', and took a few special steps to keep Jet from contaminating the mix they used. Which was something pretty generic for the job. They were expecting an original person, like Anika.

Anyway, HANDWAVIUM DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. The result might be a hollow echo, or driven by whatever show or meme he was thinking about when he died. It's finnicky that way.....
Noah's bevy of android daughters seems to suggest otherwise. Sure, half of the original batch failed to awaken, but that was because of an undiscovered quirk of the android he used. Come to think of it, using a modified version of those androids might be how he goes about it; he might create a robot version of Kevyn Andreyasn as a test run for his backup.
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#29
Dude, whatever character you have in mind has not been approved by the collective yet. Until such a thing occurs, I would advise that you go work on that in another thread. In this thread, we are discussing a contribution by an established Fenspace author and what affects the contribution would have on established characters. If, on the other hand, you wish to refer to this thread in another one, then that is perfectly acceptable.
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#30
about the perfect backup... yes, the Mind Tech has the potential to get there, but as Catgirl Industries discovered during its experiments, its not that difficult to notice that you are a backup in the long run because you lack all the muscle memory your have built up over the year. Mind Tech can induce knowledge skills, which still have to be preprocessed and cleaned up (or combined by using multiple sets of the same skill from different donors), but using it for an active skill (like melee combat for example), you will notice that you only got a part of the whole thing. So there will be still lots of research to be done in 2020 and the following decades.

If someone else want to use this tech, keep in mind that it will not be freely available for the near future. SOTs will become available for Space Patrol and Great Justice in 2017-2018, but it will still take a few more years until they become man portable (and it will still be a "trained specialist equipment"). The rest of Fenspace will not even know about the skill sharing thing until 2019 and it is the result of years of research and experimentation, so its not easily duplicated even for people who have access to Quattros tech.

CI will most likely sit down with parts of the Convention to think about a plan what part of the tech is useful and safe enough to be shared later (which still raise the question if CI wants to share it soon). Most likely CI's "skill learning tech" will become available as a service in 2022+... maybe as a joined project with Prometheus Forge to certify that the service is not dangerous to use.

Quote:Noah's bevy of android daughters seems to suggest otherwise. Sure, half of the original batch failed to awaken, but that was because of an undiscovered quirk of the android he used. Come to think of it, using a modified version of those androids might be how he goes about it; he might create a robot version of Kevyn Andreyasn as a test run for his backup.
Noah did NOT choose the memories of his androids... he managed to wave them to become similar to well known persons from animes watches by millions of people.

(editSmile
Its always possible to TALK with CI about the technology, they are known to be reasonable and do shared projects with friends. But you will have to talk with them before. Wink
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#31
nick012000 Wrote:Why not just run a surveillance feed into a vat of handwavium, so that you can 'wave a computer or android, and generate a lookalike AI of the person you're trying to upload? It's what the Adamantine Rapier is doing, to automatically create a backup in the event he dies somehow (the fact that he's already got a mind-machine interface from his biomod just improves the quality of the surveillance feed, really). He's got a stream of his memories running into a vat of handwavium, in a jar that's connected to a blank android he designed to resemble himself, via a series of tubes and pumps that'd pump the handwavium throughout the android's systems. It's rigged so that if the feed cuts out for too long, if someone tries to dismantle it, or if the nonsapient AI running it determines that it's clear he's died, it'll automatically release the handwavium to 'wave the android and produce a duplicate of him.
This is very risky.  All he needs to do is go into a communications blind spot and he'll find there are two of him arguing about which has rights to his personal resources.  Unless he has tested and debugged this "backup self" process the odds are that 'insane murderous clone' is one of the nicer things likely to happen.
If someone tried to do this in a game I was GMing I'd say something like the handwavium produced a peeping-Tom voyeristic AI that was into watching people, but not getting involved.  And, if he died would never do the cloning process, because it was obviously 'too dangerous' out there.  After all, he'd died already!
Or, an AI that's convinced it's him, but that he is only a meat puppet avatar, and that puppet needs to be 'fixed' so it does what the AI wants.
I'd recommend you tell a story with the Adamantine Rapier in it, doing the sort of things that might interest him in Fenspace.  That is one way to take a character idea and see what needs working-on to get things so you're happy.
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind
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#32
HRogge Wrote:
Quote:Noah's bevy of android daughters seems to suggest otherwise. Sure, half of the original batch failed to awaken, but that was because of an undiscovered quirk of the android he used. Come to think of it, using a modified version of those androids might be how he goes about it; he might create a robot version of Kevyn Andreyasn as a test run for his backup.
Noah did NOT choose the memories of his androids... he managed to wave them to become similar to well known persons from animes watches by millions of people.
I think you misunderstood me; he might not have chose their memories, but he chose which characters to make in the first place. That much is obvious, from reading the story where he actually made the six of them.

Ace Dreamer Wrote:This is very risky. All he needs to do is go into a communications blind spot and he'll find there are two of him arguing about which has rights to his personal resources. Unless he has tested and debugged this "backup self" process the odds are that 'insane murderous clone' is one of the nicer things likely to happen.
Eh; he doesn't think "insane murderous clone" is likely to happen. It's him, after all, and he'd consider such a clone a part of the collective of himself. If anything, he'd try to get the clone to use its radio so they can become a collective intelligence spread between the two of them. Much more difficult to kill, that way, and it's been one of his long-term goals for some time.

Quote:If someone tried to do this in a game I was GMing I'd say something like the handwavium produced a peeping-Tom voyeristic AI that was into watching people, but not getting involved. And, if he died would never do the cloning process, because it was obviously 'too dangerous' out there. After all, he'd died already!

Or, an AI that's convinced it's him, but that he is only a meat puppet avatar, and that puppet needs to be 'fixed' so it does what the AI wants.
This sort of thing is why he makes nonsapient AIs wherever possible, and frequently uses his mind-machine interface to monitor and control things directly.

Quote:I'd recommend you tell a story with the Adamantine Rapier in it, doing the sort of things that might interest him in Fenspace. That is one way to take a character idea and see what needs working-on to get things so you're happy.
I wanted to get approval before I actually started writing.
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#33
HRogge Wrote:about the perfect backup... yes, the Mind Tech has the potential to get there, but as Catgirl Industries discovered during its experiments, its not that difficult to notice that you are a backup in the long run because you lack all the muscle memory your have built up over the year. Mind Tech can induce knowledge skills, which still have to be preprocessed and cleaned up (or combined by using multiple sets of the same skill from different donors), but using it for an active skill (like melee combat for example), you will notice that you only got a part of the whole thing. So there will be still lots of research to be done in 2020 and the following decades.
I did write a piece in another universe about this, involving cybernetic implants and "skillsofts". Yes, you could easily trash an average joe with no training on the street with a melee skill implant... but due to the compromises involved to make it work, anyone with "above white belt" training (even barely above washout but got through that part of Basic Training) would be capable of matching and most likely defeating you because they learned it properly.
I expect the language skill would have similar issues. Including knowing a slang term but having no flippin' clue as to how it's defined except in a vague sense... to the point of being unable to articulate its meaning in the language it's in. It would certainly be an incredibly useful "leg up" if you need to speak a language in a hurry, but don't count on it for your spy mission, as odds are it's going to take as long to "properly" integrate it as it takes many children to learn how to talk.
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
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#34
nick012000 Wrote:Why not just run a surveillance feed into a vat of handwavium, so that you can 'wave a computer or android, and generate a lookalike AI of the person you're trying to upload? ...
We established years ago that you need more than just an image of something and a vat of handwavium to make a copy of that something.

HRogge Wrote:Noah did NOT choose the memories of his androids... he managed to wave them to become similar to well known persons from animes watches by millions of people.
And spent some time uploading (to the computers that would become their brains) all of the data he could find about the characters - including, in as many cases as possible, the original authors' notes about the characters. Then he waited. And waited. And they still didn't turn out exactly as hoped.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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#35
JFerio Wrote:I did write a piece in another universe about this, involving cybernetic implants and "skillsofts". Yes, you could easily trash an average joe with no training on the street with a melee skill implant... but due to the compromises involved to make it work, anyone with "above white belt" training (even barely above washout but got through that part of Basic Training) would be capable of matching and most likely defeating you because they learned it properly.
I expect the language skill would have similar issues. Including knowing a slang term but having no flippin' clue as to how it's defined except in a vague sense... to the point of being unable to articulate its meaning in the language it's in. It would certainly be an incredibly useful "leg up" if you need to speak a language in a hurry, but don't count on it for your spy mission, as odds are it's going to take as long to "properly" integrate it as it takes many children to learn how to talk.

You need both the knowledge the Skillsoft depends on (Physics Skillsoft without knowing basic math is useless!) and you will have to exercise the new skill to 'connect it' with the rest of your knowledge. So CI Skillsoft is not a "instant learn anything" but a very quick way to learn something (sometimes in days except years).

Meta: like nearly all stuff I invented for Fenspace, its not meant to be the "optimal thing", there is still a lot of room for improvement.
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#36
If an AI could run a model to test how the Skillsoft could be used, then they could probably give advice on prerequisites, some of which themselves might be skills you could learn, or might even exist as Skillsofts.

The odds are that an AI that has run such a model could devise a training program to effectively integrate your new Skillsodt with your existing knowledge and skills.

Skillsofts 'fading' if you don't use them, and thus build up the 'associative hooks', might be an interesting idea, too.

Can catgirl minds be 'read', then uploaded and run as AIs, or can you just 'fork' them to make new 'twin' catgirls?
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind
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#37
On the note of 'skillsofts', even if you get the understanding of the technique, you're still probably not going to be able to use it properly.
Free-running for example. Knowing how to perform a bunch of neat flips is cool. Pulling yourself up a ledge still requires you to actually have the muscle strength neccesary to haul yourself up.
To go back to the martial arts example, a significant part of the training for those is building up endurance and strength, along with flexibility. And that's not even going into the little details, like callouses and reactions.
Heck, this even applies to language implants. I haven't taken japanese since highschool, but one of the things I remember is just how weird some of the words felt to say. Not because I didn't understand them at the time, and I barely did, but... It's like learning a new word. And using it in a sentence to familiarize yourself with it. You know the word. You know what it means. You know what it sounds like. Saying it though, can still be tricky.
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#38
"Konnichiwa... that feels really damned freaky."
--

"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
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#39
Ace Dreamer Wrote:If an AI could run a model to test how the Skillsoft could be used, then they could probably give advice on prerequisites, some of which themselves might be skills you could learn, or might even exist as Skillsofts.

The odds are that an AI that has run such a model could devise a training program to effectively integrate your new Skillsodt with your existing knowledge and skills.
No, as mentioned in the original post, CI cannot run memories in a simulation. Because of this there are a lot of catgirls involved creating training programs for skills.

Quote:Skillsofts 'fading' if you don't use them, and thus build up the 'associative hooks', might be an interesting idea, too.
I think so too.

Quote:Can catgirl minds be 'read', then uploaded and run as AIs, or can you just 'fork' them to make new 'twin' catgirls?
Original text: "Research to run a mind state within a computer emulation is still ongoing as the ultimate cyberspace interface."

shaderic Wrote:On the note of 'skillsofts', even if you get the understanding of the technique, you're still probably not going to be able to use it properly.

Free-running for example. Knowing how to perform a bunch of neat flips is cool. Pulling yourself up a ledge still requires you to actually have the muscle strength neccesary to haul yourself up.

To go back to the martial arts example, a significant part of the training for those is building up endurance and strength, along with flexibility. And that's not even going into the little details, like callouses and reactions.

Heck, this even applies to language implants. I haven't taken japanese since highschool, but one of the things I remember is just how weird some of the words felt to say. Not because I didn't understand them at the time, and I barely did, but... It's like learning a new word. And using it in a sentence to familiarize yourself with it. You know the word. You know what it means. You know what it sounds like. Saying it though, can still be tricky.
Yes, thats why its not a "instant do anything"... the more 'physical activity' involved, the less useful the technology becomes (at least thats the state in 2015-2025).

JFerio Wrote:"Konnichiwa... that feels really damned freaky."
*laughing* yes, it does... but you will get used to it very quickly!
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#40
You know.... This could be a good way for the fen in general to get education knocked out in a big hurry.

No, really. All the more intellectual pursuits: the sciences, mathematics, literature, politics, economics, history... all that can be filed away using skillsofts. Art would be a bit trickier. Sure, you'll learn techniques sure enough, but actually making art... well, that's all on you. Languages - trickier. You can learn all the grammar and vocabulary you like, and even have knowledge of the phonetics... but actually learning to make those sounds is gonna be an experience. The phonetics portion will give you a good primer, but you'll still have to develop the muscle memory of making those sounds.

With skillsofts, you can have fen-kinder with double- or even triple-doctorates at the age of six. (The younger, the better - their minds are just so incredibly malleable!) This means you can devote the later years to building up the physical side. Skillsofts can be applied here as well, but the effectiveness is limited, much in the same way languages are. You will come to understand the techniques immediately. But you will still have to build up your body to match it, and it is still probably going to take an instructor to help guide you along.

With this... the Fen would potentially become a force to be reckoned with. At the age of twenty, every fen is a genius in a field that they are absolutely happy in, and probably a 3rd or 4th degree blackbelt in several martial art forms. And that's just the normal, non-biomodded humans. Wink

We'd better be careful with this or else it could get completely ridiculous... Or is that the direction we do want to go? ;D
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#41
I could certainly see the 'Dane governments freaking out over a civilization of geniuses in space...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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#42
Quote:Or is that the direction we do want to go?
Do we want a setting filled with Chiyo-chans and Rebecca Miyamotos?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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#43
You know, something about that idea... really creeps me out.

I can't quite put my finger on it though. Partly because of how many nine year olds would suddenly get the diet-coke/mentos trick. That's going to be an ulgy mess.

Partly because, this technology freaks me out, in multiple ways still.

And thirdly, because I can't help but imagine that little 'extras' might find their way in. It's probably nothing, but the idea of a little something buried in the math section that's got nothing to do with math, really freaks me out. And that's not counting the idea of complete hacks. Suddenly, your lesson about conservation of mass is replaced by a StelOil ad, encouraging you to trust Noah Scott, for he is the One True Bussiness Man.

OK, so it most definitely wouldn't be that, but you get the idea.

I know that the tech doesn't work that way, but you see one hypnotoad, and then- ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!

But seriously, I don't think this tech would be seeing a use like that until, what, the 2030s? You'd have to make it safe, affordable, and secure. Then you get to convince everyone else that it's safe and secure. Then you have to shell out constant protection money for the servers, constantly keep track of who's 'donating' and keep an eye on your coders/teachers.

Point blank, if I had a kid, I'd think very hard about having them use this system.
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#44
Please remember that the text is just an overview of a tech, that still needs work (both in universe and from a meta perspective). There will be no "instant doctor grade" tech in 2020, and most likely not even in 2030...

One idea I had to counter this is that a copy of a skill is never as good as the original... which gets quite a headache if you try to learn the requirements of a skill by skillsoft too. Suddenly even the basic blocks the skill builds upon will be "not good enough". So there is still a lot of learning to do.

I am not even sure the tech will be useful for things like combat, at least not in its 2020 incarnation... too much muscle memory involved.

On the other side this was designed to be controversial, so I am looking forward what would be the reaction of Fenspace when the news about this tech leaches from CI to some parts of Fenspace.

shaderic Wrote:And thirdly, because I can't help but imagine that little 'extras' might find their way in. It's probably nothing, but the idea of a little something buried in the math section that's got nothing to do with math, really freaks me out. And that's not counting the idea of complete hacks. Suddenly, your lesson about conservation of mass is replaced by a StelOil ad, encouraging you to trust Noah Scott, for he is the One True Bussiness Man.
If you think about that this tech was developed out of something designed to manipulate people... *grin*

Quote:But seriously, I don't think this tech would be seeing a use like that until, what, the 2030s? You'd have to make it safe, affordable, and secure. Then you get to convince everyone else that it's safe and secure. Then you have to shell out constant protection money for the servers, constantly keep track of who's 'donating' and keep an eye on your coders/teachers.

Exactly... and Catgirl Industries does NOT plan to sell or rent this tech soon... because they do not want to be responsible for all the craziness that happens when a partly working tech with too many exploits gets out. Wink
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#45
If you really want to limit its usefulness, you can give it a particularly nasty quirk in that frequent use of it can cause permanent brain damage. You have to limit it to about the rate that a human normally learns. Granted, that can still shave several years off of traditional education, but it a puts a realistic damper on things.

BTW: We're already real close to this in real-life hard tech. I don't have the reference handy right now, but somewhere some lab has had success with using computer chips to transfer the memories one rodent has of running a maze, and giving it to another... and the other one ran the maze perfectly without ever having set a paw in it before hand. It's looking really hopeful as a solution to Alzheimer patients.
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#46
blackaeronaut Wrote:If you really want to limit its usefulness, you can give it a particularly nasty quirk in that frequent use of it can cause permanent brain damage. You have to limit it to about the rate that a human normally learns. Granted, that can still shave several years off of traditional education, but it a puts a realistic damper on things.
Not sure I want to do this... on the other side, maybe the catgirls did not noticed it because their homeostasis-effect was too strong?
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#47
I'd suggest the "Must bed-in the skill" quirk, applying at least in non-catgirls.
This means that you need at least two months practicing using the skill on a 5-days a week basis, for at least 15mins per day.  This needs to be a continuous period in the first year after you get the skill, preferably the first six months.  You can only be doing this with at most three skillsofts at once.  Unless you do this then the skillsoft will 'fade', you'll find holes in it, and after two years at most there will be only fragments left.  Fading starts after six months; the practice stops fading, and integrates the skill so its one of your own.
--
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" - Hawkwind
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#48
I had planned that the "you have to practice the skill to prevent it going stall" even for Catgirls.
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#49
Skillsofts should no real replacement for genuine learning and practice at an art. I like the idea that they're a quick fix.... a chunk of code that just happens to be cheaper th/quickeran shoving a menial employee through a couple of months of training, when you can just skill-job them. And then remove the software later when they retire.

A nice downside to a skillsoft is that, while it enables you to use the skill, you can never advance in it beyond a certain level since you haven't built up the base understanding of the concepts behind the skill.... you just know how to follow what the program tells your body to do. You might get more comfortable using the skillsoft, but you're not using the skill itself. Transplanting that base understand requires the trading of a lot more than a simple 'how to do', and a lot more invasive manipulation of the brain.

Might that work?
________________________________
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#50
Dartz Wrote:Skillsofts should no real replacement for genuine learning and practice at an art. I like the idea that they're a quick fix.... a chunk of code that just happens to be cheaper th/quickeran shoving a menial employee through a couple of months of training, when you can just skill-job them. And then remove the software later when they retire.

A nice downside to a skillsoft is that, while it enables you to use the skill, you can never advance in it beyond a certain level since you haven't built up the base understanding of the concepts behind the skill.... you just know how to follow what the program tells your body to do. You might get more comfortable using the skillsoft, but you're not using the skill itself. Transplanting that base understand requires the trading of a lot more than a simple 'how to do', and a lot more invasive manipulation of the brain.

This is not the skillsoft of Shadowrun, where your mind access a computer program through an neural interface. There is no programming involved, its mostly about recording lots of 'strains of thoughts' about the skill and putting them together into a large package.

Getting a skillsoft without a lot personal/emotional context of the donor is also a problem, especially for the first decade CI is experimenting with this tech.
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