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richardson Wrote:Say, as a tangentally related subject, what would the chances of the Stingray's commander pulling legal-fu to pull some of the 300 F-18s in mothballs at the boneyard (minus engines, avionics, and weapons), and then waiving them, mounting railguns and fen-built speed drives and avionics, and hiring retired naval and airforce pilots to form a Navy-Comissioned and regulated militia? The fighters would remain Navy property, 'on-loan' until a proper space navy branch could be established to protect American citizens and economic interests.
All technically legal according to the constitution and the bill of rights, after all... And we have established that the US Navy has a base on asteroid 1625 The NORC. They could be based there...
Bob Schroeck Wrote:Hm. It's been a week since the last change to the "timeline" in the first post. Is this ready for putting up on the wiki in some form? No objections here.
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Anyone have any events to extend the timeline out? I'd like to get the next administration's view on things, and I've been busy this week with other projects.
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2016: [Agency] is established to provide traffic control for spacecraft re-entering from over the Pacific after a mid-air collision between a light Fencar and a 747 Cargo over Louisiana killed 7 people. (The pilot of the car, and the flight-crew of the aircraft). Coming after a number of near misses, Congress authorised funding for , based out of the former Heuston mission-control complex. A number of dedicated re-entry corridors were established over the Southern United States, offering approache to Cape Canaveral, That New Mexico spaceport whos name escapes me, or entry into conventional airspace routes to other airports. Funding for the agency is part provided by landing fees charged at airports based on vehicle mass and cargo capacity.
For the next eight years, there are no further re-entry accidents.
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Quote:robkelkrichardson
Say, as a tangentally related subject, what would the chances of the Stingray's commander pulling legal-fu to pull some of the 300 F-18s in mothballs at the boneyard (minus engines, avionics, and weapons), and then waiving them, mounting railguns and fen-built speed drives and avionics, and hiring retired naval and airforce pilots to form a Navy-Comissioned and regulated militia? The fighters would remain Navy property, 'on-loan' until a proper space navy branch could be established to protect American citizens and economic interests.
All technically legal according to the constitution and the bill of rights, after all...
And we have established that the US Navy has a base on asteroid 1625 The NORC. They could be based there...
Agreed on NORC. That's the obvious 'hub' base. But, the idea of the militia is to spread out the Navy's influence, to get people used to 'Danelaw forces HELPING instead of hindering. So, there are secondaries. Ceres, Vesta, Phobos, Ganymede... two prototype space carriers built out of shipping containers and leftover platforms...
Say, 12 birds to a Squadron, with an AWACS converted 'wavied airliner using Fen (a mix of Trekkie and Warsie sensors) sensors to massively extend the range. 3 wings of 4 aircraft per squadron, each rotating onto 'active' duty for the week, escorting miners and freighters, and being directed onto leftover raiders by their AWACS bird. The pilots would all be retired military, with no distinctions on branch. Even helicopter pilots might get roped in for their unique experience in 3d manuvering. A mix of Vietnam, OIF/OEF, Gulf War Vets, even a WW2 pilot or two who responded favorably when offered a biomod to get back up into the air, and who rejuvinated. Others who didn't act as instructors for training Belter pilots of all stripes on evasion and counterattack tactics, training them to survive longer.
Perhaps have the first squadron come online in December of 2013, as the Stingray stops by the Boneyard to pick them up with grappling hooks, and orders signed by another sympathetic admiral (who recognizes that capital ships are fine in Fenspace, but that you need fighters to pin them down so that engagements can occur). After that, the Stingray comissions a company (say, Thunderbolt Aeronautics?) to install new fen avionics (single-piece cockpit that ejects, new fen concept based radar and detection systems & controls), acceleration Ion Drives replacing the old engines (which would have been removed), manuvering speed drives woven into the wing structure to give them aerial performance, and twin coil and/or railguns with 300-1000 rounds each for their main weapons (since they can't be armed with weapons/missiles requiring a security clearance to operate).
That way, they can be operated out of minimal 'airstrips', allowing for them to be deployed where the Stingray can't hang out 24/7. As said, like Ceres, Phobos, Ganymede... And, because it offers the Stingray more ammunition when the inevitable congressional inquery occurs. Which could end up becoming the day the Danes Stood Up.
Say, set it a little bit after 2016 (or just before it, during the election), when someone finally realizes that the Stingray has been hiring old pilots on semi-minimum wage for part time jobs... flying retired navy airframes that have been waved. Which turns into an utter clusterfuck for congress when the Stingray's commander and the contractors helping out on the project slam congress with the 2nd amendment and other relevant passages from the constitution, citing the TSAB's utter inability to do ANYTHING that has forced them to take drastic measures to fulfill their orders to 'Maintain Peace and Security for all American Citizens Beyond Earth Orbit'. Use the republican sticking points against them, have them hammer in the points of how Fenspace is leaving America (and the rest of the world) behind, economically and militarily. After all, they have honest to god FLEETS of cruisers, and all the US has is a SINGLE waved sub, and whatever that sub's crew has managed to scrounge up.
Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of US citizens are flying around without protection, cutting their ties to the US due to its hostility towards them. A ten minute speech that goes down as one of the most legendary ever, challenging congress to get off their ass and get america properly into space. To stop fearing handwavium, and USE IT. After all, if they claim to be god-fearing americans, why are they shunning something that might as well be from god? Nothing else has explained the outright miracle of handwavium. A parable is used, about how the british empire once said the sun could never set upon it. And yet, it did, because the empire refused to move to say in the sun. Remind Congress that with humanity spreading out, even to the stars. And they're leaving america behind. The sun is SETTING on the USA. And it needs to move.
At the end of the speech, an aide comes in, babbling in the House Speaker's ear. An AI hacked the feeds, and every channel EVERYWHERE heard the speech.
Quote: ECSNorwayAnyone have any events to extend the timeline out? I'd like to get the next administration's view on things, and I've been busy this week with other projects.
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The response of the majority of fen could probably be summarised as:
Oh look.... here comes "democracy".
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Dartz Wrote:The response of the majority of fen could probably be summarised as:
Oh look.... here comes "democracy". Absolutely true. But a good point could be that nobody ever figures out who hacked the signal and forced the issue. For all anyone knows, it could have been a villain faction out to cause a panic (in the danes AND in Fen who are extra-flighty) by forcing them up.
And after the Boskone War, it makes no sense whatsoever for the US to accept not having any power projection 'Upstairs'. I just can't see them bumbling around anymore. You're talking actual space NAVIES, who are unbeholden to the UN and are undetered by nukes. Hell, they have BETTER strategic weapons since they can 'drop rocks'. Plus, well... we're already seeing it in the 2015 stories, but just flying around CISlunar space, going to Mars and Ceres, Venus and Ganymede? It's becoming... normal. You know, MUNDANE. All of a sudden, it's no longer 'Those guys are nuts! It's crazy going up there!' to 'Man, what nuttiness did those Fenners get up to this week? Say, don't you have a business meeting with them tomorrow?' All of a sudden, supertankers start rising from the oceans with built-in refineries to go harvest Venus and Titan, great mundane mining ships are being assembled in Earth orbit, factory stations cluttering up near space...
It would explain why everyone is so keen on leaving the solar system in the 2020's. All of a sudden, there are danes EVERYWHERE. So, they move out to other systems. Far enough away where those uppity normal, BORING folk will stop trampling their lawns!
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Ha! I love that idea!
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I have no problems with mundanes steadily appearing and things 'normalising'.
Can we leave the manifest destiny out though? Not to mention other nations who may have other interests.... Arguably, most mundane countries rather missed the boat when it comes to establishing strong power projection in space. Before 2012, maybe. After 2014, someone else has moved in. They're up against a whole slew of people who have the idea that they carved out a piece of the universe for themselves, all by themselves, and now the governments who sat by and watched while they did so seem to want an unfair share.
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Quote:TSAB's utter inability to do ANYTHING
It should be noted here that TSAB is a research organization, not a direct-action agency. Expecting TSAB to defend American interests abroad - which is what this is, let's not kid ourselves here - is like expecting DARPA to patrol the coasts.
Also I echo the call for less manifest destiny.
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I think before 2012/2013 (especially before the attack on Serenity Valley) most countries didn't even took the actions in orbit serious...
Some small scale conflict between a bunch of criminal nuts and a bunch of not-so-criminal nuts, nothing special.
Afterwards they suddenly discovered that there was not only a group "in orbit" that could work together, the Fen also proved that they had the necessary force to defend themselves. Suddenly moving out and "bringing democracy to the Fen" (spelled: bring them under your heel) became more complicated and risky.
Sure you can build up your own asteroid settlement, but be prepared to work together with Space Patrol (the cops) and Grreat Justice (the military)... I don't think Space Patrol would stop from looking into a crime just because you say "we are a US/Chinese/whatever colony, we are not your jurisdiction" that easily.
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i have to agree as well, and also, this:
Quote:Say, set it a little bit after 2016 (or just before it, during the election), when someone finally realizes that the Stingray has been hiring old pilots on semi-minimum wage for part time jobs... flying retired navy airframes that have been waved. Which turns into an utter clusterfuck for congress when the Stingray's commander and the contractors helping out on the project slam congress with the 2nd amendment and other relevant passages from the constitution, citing the TSAB's utter inability to do ANYTHING that has forced them to take drastic measures to fulfill their orders to 'Maintain Peace and Security for all American Citizens Beyond Earth Orbit'. Use the republican sticking points against them, have them hammer in the points of how Fenspace is leaving America (and the rest of the world) behind, economically and militarily. After all, they have honest to god FLEETS of cruisers, and all the US has is a SINGLE waved sub, and whatever that sub's crew has managed to scrounge up.
would dovetail nicely with the december relaunch of the USS Tarawa as the FCS Werewolf and then the 2018 relaunch of the USS Whitbey Island by the US navy
Rajvik Wrote:i have to agree as well, and also, this:
Quote:Say, set it a little bit after 2016 (or just before it, during the election), when someone finally realizes that the Stingray has been hiring old pilots on semi-minimum wage for part time jobs... flying retired navy airframes that have been waved. Which turns into an utter clusterfuck for congress when the Stingray's commander and the contractors helping out on the project slam congress with the 2nd amendment and other relevant passages from the constitution, citing the TSAB's utter inability to do ANYTHING that has forced them to take drastic measures to fulfill their orders to 'Maintain Peace and Security for all American Citizens Beyond Earth Orbit'. Use the republican sticking points against them, have them hammer in the points of how Fenspace is leaving America (and the rest of the world) behind, economically and militarily. After all, they have honest to god FLEETS of cruisers, and all the US has is a SINGLE waved sub, and whatever that sub's crew has managed to scrounge up.
would dovetail nicely with the december relaunch of the USS Tarawa as the FCS Werewolf and then the 2018 relaunch of the USS Whitbey Island by the US navy March 2015 is also the year when the ESA/JAXA spaceship Thor Heyerdahl flies the first time... which might be another readon for the two launches you describe ("We need a bit more presence up there!"). It didn't helped a bit that both ESA/JAXA kept pushing forward their projects in 2017 either. 
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As Mal said, the TSAB is not a DEFENSIVE organization, it's a research group.
OTOH, there are persistent rumours in fenspace - see the Conspiracy Theories page - that the Stingray is not the only USN ship out there. This might well be true, and the launch you reference might well be what triggers the reveal that they're for real.
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Just another thought, how will the launch of more Earth warships influence the PEPPER treaty?
If the US starts a few more ships, the Russians will most likely do so too... and maybe the Chinese will reveal that they are still interested in orbit (without showing everyone their stealth ships).
Which means that suddenly a dozen warships from nations that are known to be neutral or hostile to Fen are running around in the Solar system showing the flag. Fen will call for some larger weapons to "defend themselves" against this potential thread.
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I suspect the various Fen Embassies and Consulates would start by dropping quiet comments to their host nations' Foreign Offices/Departments/Ministries to remind them of what the PEPPER Treaty says about military buildups and the people making them, and that the Convention would continue to respect Earth's nations just as much as Earth's nations respect the Convention. Phrased far more diplomatically and not at all as a threat, of course.
If that doesn't work, only then would the military buildup be appropriate.
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The more I reread the material about American military buildup in Fenspace, the more... disquieting? I guess the whole thing is. It reads to me as if some people are treating Fenspace as an unruly group of expatriates or colonists who need the big strong adult US to come in and sort their shit out for them. If this is the emerging consensus I'd like to know now so I can shutter this project and move on to something less blatantly imperialist and America-fuck-yeah.
I would like the America boosters in this thread (except Norway; you're cool, the OP is cool) to take a step back and reflect upon something before proceeding: Fenspace is a foreign country. Just because it has a shitload of ex-Americans in it doesn't make it any less foreign, and that doesn't give the US - or any other nation - the right to go swinging their big dicks wherever they please. In general military forces have to be invited into another country... unless the intent is invasion and occupation.
Is it?
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Mal, as far as i'm concerned the answer to that is no, however, Like in 1900, america always has felt a need to go where ever people are and america has interests to "Show the flag" The Tarawa was an experiment and sold afterwards to the fan that helped wave it because the american government felt they could trust at least that one as someone who WASNT going to drop a rock on their head and maybe more importantly wouldnt let others do so as well. It might be a good idea for you to also step back and realize that while fenspace is a sovereign nation of its own, that every nation has a vested interest in securing their orbital space, and quite frankly there's a lot of it up there and while the fen control their own stations and habitats, and like the islands that make up Malaysia have some form of centralized government, they dont control all of space up there. That and that there is a lot of space up there, honestly there should be enough with the arc ships and the colonization of mars ganymede and other places that the fen shouldnt get all that irate about two or three ships from each of the major, (and some of the minor) world players out there
Think about this:
Nothing that has happened in fenspace canon has caused a butterfly effect that would prevent the teaparty from rising. The foundations for their rise (the economic crash of 2008) were laid in the late 90's and early 2000-2001. Add to that fear. Fear from amongst themselves, from terrorists and handwavium (possibly mixed together by shock jocks), fear from above (there was a WAR!?), fear brought on from any number of sources.
So, you have one nearly insane hyper-nationalist rightwinger group that is markedly diving headlong into religious fundamentalism, add one speech (in stupidity and desperation to get more resources applied) that leverages that with talk of 'god's gift', and playing on old national themes that are disturbingly still suggested (Manifest destiny. Intentionally picked to inspire America Uber Alles!, and yes, I am aware of the disturbing implications), add as suggested attempts to claim all of space is in fact part of the fenspace nation (which would get laughed off the podium just as fast as china trying to claim the entire south china sea. Expect exclusive economic zones and 'national space zones' established by UN mandate), intentionally (in a very bad idea) played up fear of the fact that the fens have a space navy, and the US... doesn't (meaning they can strike without the US being able to counterstrike), and it all adds up to a very toxic soup that is equal parts inspiring, encouraging, and pants-shittingly terrifying.
It's not MEANT to be a good thing, and from the setup in fenspace, I can't see why it hasn't happened already. If anything, politics in Fenspace America is going to be more toxic than currently thanks to events happening, and the fact that a massive chunk of the moderating influence IRL has left for Upstairs, and because (as pointed out in violation of a few treaties) Fenspace already HAS a navy. A very large, very dangerous navy that can first-strike the US without the US being able to do anything about that. Like, say, being able to tow a dinosaur killer onto a collision orbit that will drop it on DC.
Think of it in real world terms, Foriegnstan has suddenly appeared off the coast. And they've somehow developed a perfect anti-nuke shield. And they have enough nukes to hit every US city. Meanwhile, the Navy and the airforce are bickering too much to actually do anything to act as a protective measure.
There is going to be SOMETHING happening in response to the aftermath of the Boskone War. Great Justice is still around. The big factions are still armed, almost to ludicrous levels. Before the war, Fenspace was ignorable. Nothing had happened that was worth noting, and it was politically safe to write off space as 'fen territory'.
Then came the war. Overnight, everybody Upstairs is armed. Overnight, they launched an attack on an EARTHBOUND target (Shipwreck Island, if I remember right), and demonstrated that they had the will and ability to fight a war. And all of a sudden, somebody rubs their face in that fact. Fen having exclusive control over space is no longer acceptable. Now, space has to be treated as just another frontier, another threat (rightly or wrongly) to defend against. Now, you've got Space Patrol and the Convention as the Space UN, sure it's nice to work with them, but smaller nations within the fen have come forward. Now, all of a sudden, you've got to defend the US from attack from above. You've already GOT a base out in the Main Belt, so claiming that sending ships Up is an invasion is now moot.
Is it not good? Yeah, but that's intentional. It's a new type of friction between the danelaw and the fens, one that is going to cause Problems. The politicians are going to want to do things that the fen aren't going to like. That doesn't mean that the military commanders Upstairs are going to completely listen to them. That precedent has already been established with the Stingray.
As for establishing FOBs on Ceres, and other places in Fenspace? Not an invasion, but more like Diego Garcia, Germany, Okinawa. Places negotiated for, basing permissions established (and potentially revoked in the aftermath of The Call) at first as additional protection in the height of the Bosokone War and afterwards to help add an additional layer of protection. After all, the Space Patrol and Great Justice and the Trekkies and Warsies are nice, but... in the aftermath of Jenga, can anyone guarantee that they'll be there in time to help? Some are going to look elsewhere. Why not the USA? They promise to keep to themselves, and they've got all these nice fighters and a small detachment marines ready to go! heck, they'll even bring up business from earth with them!
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And what about all those other countries that aren't Eagleland. What're they doing?
Or for that matter, what will America's actions provoke them to do? Or, added on top of that, what will those Taxed Enough Already see the bill for establishing and resupplying FoB's do?.
Not an invasion? Isn't that always what the Empire says as it moves in? Oh Hi, we're here to bring civilisation/freedom/democracy. We bring police and army to keep you safe - oh, and a government far away more concerned with dissapearring up its own arsehole than doing anything correctly. They like taxes and military bases - oh, and proecutorial immunity for their military bases. We already brought the soldiers, they're on the gunboat in orbit. If you don't like that - well, see your glass dome? Pretty isn't it. Shame if anything happened to it. There, that's a good child - you're letting us move in willingly aren't you?
Frankly, if the American government- or any major government for that matter - wanted to be relevant and respected in Fenspace it sat out and watched while it's biggest opportunity slipped by. To be present is possible - but political domination, beyond maybe having the ear of one or two 'independents' or a few rocks who find the idea of having a platoon of Army stationed on them a good idea - is something that has already slipped from their fingers. Something else has been established and that something will not be disestablished just because it inconveniences the old country.
By all means come up, have a look around - maybe even find a few rocks in the main belt that like the whole idea of being under the American thumb - same as some might 'like' the idea of being Chinese, or German or Japanese or British or Russian. While others like the idea of being free of national ties.
But remember, space is big. Parts of it are already inhabited, and those that inhabit it would like to be respected. And they are more than capable of ensuring they are respected.
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Part of me is now wondering what the Convention's reaction to the quite open and above-board establishment of a US Coast Guard base in, say, L5, would be....
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Plenty of feedback...
Religious fundamentalism as a political force in the USA: Fans of Heinlein's "Future History" will already be aware of Nehemiah Scudder. The link shows two ways that having such a person gaining some real power could go - I think both are extreme and unlikely to happen exactly as described. However, Fenspace has gone with the "Libertarian counter-reaction" option.
Shipwreck Island: Please refresh my memory - what was this, when did it happen, and who did it? I thought my knowledge about mainline Fenspace (not the alternates) was near-encyclopedic (heck, I maintain the encyclopedia), but I don't remember this incident.
The Convention as the "Space UN": Er, no. The Convention is the national government of a loose confederation, the Space Patrol is the national police force (comparable to the FBI or RCMP), and Great Justice is the standing army. The "PEPPER Treaty" limits the number and strength of any private military forces.
Dropping Rocks: That would require actually moving rocks into the correct orbits and positions, which (because handwaved drives work on a "larger is slower" principle) takes a very, very long time. While the Convention could physically use Space Rocks as a sword of Damocles over the Danelaw, they can't stage a sneak attack. And we've already established that there are factions that don't like the idea of dropping rocks.
Permanent Danelaw presence in space: Certainly, there's room for everyone who can get there, just as there are enough uninhabited atolls in the South Pacific for everyone who can get there. And we've already established that LEO and GEO are filled with Danelaw artifacts and stations.
USCG at L5: They already have a base on Luna, and I saw fit to put the Convention Authority offices in the same city. This was not a random choice; placing the Convention's permanent address and databank facility in close proximity to the oldest US government presence in Fen territory was intended to show that the Fen were willing to get along with the Danelaw. I'm expecting that Port Luna will eventually turn into Fenspace's "embassy town;" I already picture the USCG administering only Tranquility Base and a civilian government associated with the Convention running the rest of the city.
More later - must go to work now.
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Quote:Boskone Two (codename "Shipwreck Island"): Boskonian Alliance chief shipyards.
I was always thinking this is a base in the asteroid belt.
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it was, see "Jet Jaguar and the Steelyard"
I want to add something, Mal, no matter how things go, i would rather you stay. as much as you and I have our differences in both ideology and belief, you are a guiding light here and i would hate to see this place die off as it became a "who's got the bigger badder ship wankfest"
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08-26-2013, 11:46 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-05-2017, 01:39 PM by Bob Schroeck.)
HRogge Wrote:Quote:Boskone Two (codename "Shipwreck Island"): Boskonian Alliance chief shipyards.
I was always thinking this is a base in the asteroid belt.
That was my intention when I suggested it all the way back when. Is "richardson" thinking of Skull Cove instead? That is on Earth, and after the raid that secured it the locals let the Fen have it because of all the handwavium contamination. The SOS-dan now run it as a theme park.
It happened during OGJ, but I don't think we ever established who actually did it.
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Rajvik Wrote:it was, see "Jet Jaguar and the Steelyard"
I want to add something, Mal, no matter how things go, i would rather you stay. as much as you and I have our differences in both ideology and belief, you are a guiding light here and i would hate to see this place die off as it became a "who's got the bigger badder ship wankfest" I seem to have fallen into the role of "deputy Mal," gods alone know how... and as long as I'm here, I'll do my best to make sure we don't start counting battlewagons.
(waves at Ross van Loan, who I invited in)
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them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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