Going off on tangents (may be NSFW?)

[Morganite]

(This is responding to Kokuten's post in the "Pope-a-Dope" thread at (4/29/07 2:23 am). I thought it really was better to move this out of there, since it really doesn't relate to the original topic very much...)

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Interviews with rapists, interviews with rape victims. There is a whole 'rape culture' in America, and while there's a lot of knee-jerk bullshit in it, you spend enough time and effort learning, and it becomes clear. "Rape isn't about sex, it's about power" is a cliche, but it's a true one. No, I'm not saying that there are no exceptions, but it's as true as most any generalization I've run across.

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Okay, this works for me. My main problem is that the first time I ran into it was in a high school class taught by someone who, as I recall, refused to even *consider* the idea of it ever not being true.

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The "Rape Fantasy" is a completely different animal, and can be both an incredibly erotic experience, and an emotional high of very high grade, but the setup for doing it right requires a level of trust and communication that is abnormal in its strength and integrity. The roots of it, though, are in power and responsibility and sex, not just sex..

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Hmmm. I think first I'd better clarify what I originally said. The "really disturbing stuff to think that sometimes, maybe it actually is about sex" is more related to fantasies about committing rape. The "really freaks me out" is more relating to fantasies about being raped. I assume you're talking about the latter.
As for it being an erotic experience... it's something that I find myself literally unable to imagine. I don't know exactly why I feel this way (I can think of several possibilities, including that I may have effectively brainwashed myself on the issue), but I just cannot wrap my mind around the idea.
I recently read an american-made adult comic that started with someone being raped, then she realized it was actually someone she knew and loved, and poof! Suddenly it's okay and she loved it.
...
Well, I'd read books where poeple talked about their blood running cold. I'd never actually *felt* it until then.
And anything more I might have to say about this will have to wait until tomorrow. '.'
-Morgan."This continuity is now a Princess of Darkness crossover."
"... They're all going to die, aren't they?"
"Yep. Popcorn?"

[Kokuten]

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it's something that I find myself literally unable to imagine.

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Then don't worry about it. I'm not saying, don't _think_ or _learn_ about it, but don't worry about it.

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the first time I ran into it was in a high school class taught by someone who, as I recall, refused to even *consider* the idea of it ever not being true.

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Heh. High School is perhaps one of the worst places to learn a value system that I can think of, save for a religious school.

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Well, I'd read books where poeple talked about their blood running cold. I'd never actually *felt* it until then.

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That sounds.. less than fun..Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Ayiekie]

I don't understand why some people find vore sexually appealing, or why some people find golden showers sexually appealing, or why some people find breasts the size of beachballs sexually appealing. But they do. C'est la vie.
Sexual fetishes are hardwired into the brain, don't really need to make sense, and aren't necessarily going to be comprehensible to someone who doesn't share them. Rape fetishes are no different. I wouldn't worry about it, because there's a hell of a lot stranger things that get people off out there.
Violent Acres had something to say about this, like she often does (caution: contents may be offensive, but are germaine to the topic at hand).

[Kokuten]

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Violent Acres

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WOO!
where's my fan and my ice-cold mint julep, that's hot.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Morganite]

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Then don't worry about it. I'm not saying, don't _think_ or _learn_ about it, but don't worry about it.

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The problem is that I have a hard time getting away from it. It's like having a toothache and not being able to resist prodding at it, even though that'll just make it hurt more.
There's a lot of different sexual practices I don't particularly *like*, or just don't see the point of someone. But, to paraphrase someone whose name I've forgotten, I can see how someone might get there.
This one I can't, and it gnaws at me. I can and have sat for hours trying to figure it out, like a computer in a recursion loop. It hasn't happened recently, I've gotten better at mentally shoving myself out of loops like that, but it's still something I haven't actually resolved, and until I do it'll keep coming back to kick me in the face.

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Heh. High School is perhaps one of the worst places to learn a value system that I can think of, save for a religious school.

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I actually went to a religious elementary school, then a public high school.
The religion I practiced at that point wasn't the same as the religion of the school, which sometimes made things interesting.

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Sexual fetishes are hardwired into the brain

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I've always had doubts about this, for no other reason than that my own preferences have changed significantly over time.
-Morgan, has always been something of a romance fetishist though...
"We're just having a crossover lemon, would you like to join us?"
-Rane

[Ayiekie]

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I've always had doubts about this, for no other reason than that my own preferences have changed significantly over time.

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You're right, that's a bad choice of words. In fact, fetishes are rarely static - if nothing else, it's been pretty well documented that as you get more of what turns you on, the more you want and the more picky you are about it.
But they're still wired in the brain, even if not permanently and unchangingly so. And they don't really have to make any sense.
Perhaps your disconnect stems from the assumption that women who fantasize about being raped actually want to be raped in real life? I would wager that this is not at all the case. Their fantasies about nonconsensual sex don't mean they actually want to have nonconsensual sex, any more than every person who likes furry art actually wants to have sex with animals or people in fursuits.

[rmthorn]

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There's a lot of different sexual practices I don't particularly *like*, or just don't see the point of someone. But, to paraphrase someone whose name I've forgotten, I can see how someone might get there.
This one I can't, and it gnaws at me. I can and have sat for hours trying to figure it out, like a computer in a recursion loop.

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I can't figure out how anyone can look at a little kid, a rotting corpse, or a dog, and think "Hmm, I wouldn't mind a bit of that." By comparison, rape fantasies seem somewhat... tame.

[Morganite]

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You're right, that's a bad choice of words. In fact, fetishes are rarely static - if nothing else, it's been pretty well documented that as you get more of what turns you on, the more you want and the more picky you are about it.

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Hmmm. Mine have actually gotten broader and less specific. But then, I also haven't gotten any. '.'

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But they're still wired in the brain, even if not permanently and unchangingly so. And they don't really have to make any sense.

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I guess I"m not sure what the significance of "wired in the brain" is, if they aren't permanent and unchanging.
In any case, I generally find myself driven to, if not have things on their own make sense, to understand my own reactions to things. If only because things I understand are less likely to turn around and bite me one day.

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Perhaps your disconnect stems from the assumption that women who fantasize about being raped actually want to be raped in real life?

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I... don't think so, but I can't safely rule it out either.
The problem is that reality is the yardstick by which I measure my own fantasies. Any fantasy which I wouldn't be willing to live out in real life, *as either participant*, is inherently suspect. (Anything I wouldn't be interested in as both, I start seriously wondering what the point is to begin with. And mind you, this is for things I already find turning me on, not things that I have no interest in at all.)
If I expect other people to evaluate fantasies in the same way, then that would lead to what you suggest. I conciously expect people to *not* do things that way. (Particularly the "either participant" part, I doubt most people switch genders like flipping a light switch in their fantasies...) But it could be affecting my unconcious assumptions.
I can't be certain that I wouldn't react the same either way though. It just seems so... Okay, I can't come up with a single word to use. The best thing I can come up with is "counter to everything I would expect of humans". Which still doesn't sound quite right. Oh well.
But then, if I can't even tell whether I'm making that assumption or not, I certainly can't guess what I'd think if I was in the opposite state, can I?

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Their fantasies about nonconsensual sex don't mean they actually want to have nonconsensual sex, any more than every person who likes furry art actually wants to have sex with animals or people in fursuits.

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The art thing makes me think of another thing that I used to have a hard time reconciling about myself... The conclusion I've finally reached is that when I look at something drawn, there are certain things that I don't see quite as the artist probably intended them...
(On to rmthorn's post!)
>a little kid
Typically a subset of rape. (I say "typically", because while I can't imagine an exception in real life, fiction sometimes throws you curve balls - like 18 year old that look 12, and centuries old that look 15...)
>a dog
Also typically considered nonconsensual. Though I've read some stuff about dolphins, which was quite interesting and I want to never think of it again...
>a rotting corpse
... Well, at least they aren't hurting anyone...
And you're also talking about fantasies rather than the actual act, aren't you? But, like I said, that's how I evaluate fantasies too.
And in any case I still find fantasizing about being a victim less comprehensible than any of it, even if I don't think any of them are very good ideas.
Maybe I should just give up on figuring this one out... but dammit, I hate getting in infinite loops. It always happens when I'm trying to *sleep*. >.>
-Morgan.
"Danger lingers in the air
It's the night of the riot and it tells you to beware"
-"The Fault", Defiance

[Ayiekie]

I'm not sure why you find "fantasizing about being a victim" so hard to grasp. It's incredibly common and spans across a variety of fetishes. The feeling of having power taken away, of being at the mercy of someone else, is something a lot of people find extremely erotic. The cliche of the high-powered businessman (or businesswoman) who after work goes to a dungeon to be tied up and have nipple clamps applied by someone who calls them "slave" and forces them to lick their feet exists for a reason.
From bondage to ageplay, a lot of fetishes involve the notion of one participant being an unwilling victim at some level. That's not what makes it work for everyone who has that fetish, but for some people it's going to be the main draw. Roleplaying, in many fetishes, is often an aspect of pretending that what's happening is closer to the unattainable reality (rape, slave relationships, authority figure relationships) than it actually is.
As for the "wired in the brain" part, the significance is it's something the person links to sex, even if it's not directly sexual, and which heightens sexual pleasure for them, and (most of all) is involuntary.
Of course, nobody but yourself can really be sure why the concept bothers you so much.

[Morganite]

Well, I don't really see those things as involving being a victim. After all, one is in it of it's own free will. Not being in it of your own free will seems to me the very essence of rape, since pretty much anything else that's involved with it can also be found in consensual activity.
Now, don't get me wrong, I still find a lot of those other things you mentioned to be good god what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you-people fucking batshit insane, but I can still understand people thinking otherwise. I've even in some contexts been known to make jokes about some things.
Roleplaying... I feel like I ought to have something to say about this, but I'm tired and it's not coming to me. >.>
And... I guess that goes for the next part too. *sweatdrop*
-Morgan, didn't I get enough sleep *last* night?"This continuity is now a Princess of Darkness crossover."
"... They're all going to die, aren't they?"
"Yep. Popcorn?"

[Kokuten]

Ahhh, I love the sweet, sweet, burning stench of someone valiantly trying to expand their squick-horizon. Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Morganite]

o.O
Really, I don't have to *try* to do that, it happens just fine on it's own. Do you know how many times I've had to redefine just my sexual orientation? I can't even do it just in words now, I have to use tables or I'd just confuse the issue...
-Morgan, could of course be entirely wrong about her guess on what you mean by squick-horizon...
"Roll a saving throw versus cute bunny rabbits."

[Ayiekie]

I'm not certain you really got my point, so I'll try to clarify.
Let's take bondage/sadomasochism. Sure, people who actually do bondage/sadomasochism are doing it generally voluntarily. For some people, this is even what they want - they don't want to pretend it's anything other than totally consensual.
But for some people, it isn't. What they want is explicitly involuntary, either for themselves or the person they're doing it with. They want the feeling of tying up and whipping someone helpless and unwilling, or being tied up and whipped themselves, helpless and unwilling. That is their fantasy, not a consensual scenario.
Thus, roleplaying. Also, "safe words". One point of a safeword is, obviously safety - to know when someone's limits have been breached - but the other point of it is so the victim can scream and holler and cry for help and the person tormenting them will keep on happily doing it. Both get the benefit of the headspace where it really is nonconsensual, because in the nonconsensual scenario in their head, nobody was going to suddenly say "Shakespeare" anyway.
This doesn't mean any of them really want to be kidnapped, tied up and tortured. It doesn't mean any of them want to tie up and torture a helpless victim, either. But pretending, getting themselves into the moment of believing, that that is exactly what is happening is what does it for them.
This is perfectly normal. In fact, quite common. Certainly not to everyone, of course, and it may be you simply can't wrap your head around why people would want that. But lots of people do.

[Morganite]

I think I understand your point, I just don't agree with it.
To me, the scenario you describe isn't just an exercise of one fetish, it's a combination of bondage, sadism/masochism, and nonconsensual fantasy. The first two don't interest me, but don't make me lose sleep at night. The third, obviously, causes me considerable agitation. I look at it on it's own instead of mixed in with the various other things it can show up in, because otherwise those other things will just confuse the issue and make it more difficult for me to reach any actual *conclusions*.
(I also tend to be very fastidious about componentizing things because a lot of what I am interested in gets mixed in with things I don't like, or even despise.)
As for normality, isn't one of the things that makes something a fetish that only people who have it think it's normal? I certainly don't expect other people to think the stuff I'm into is normal. In some cases *I* have my doubts.
Anyway, it's not like I'm trying to *stop* anyone from doing whatever it is they do. I'm just commenting fairly randomly on stuff, and trying to figure out a bit more about myself. Which, in fact, this might be helping with. I'm beginning to think I may not be breaking the "rape fantasy" idea down into enough components...
Of course, it's also getting a bit embarrassing. ^_^;;;
-Morgan.
Drive Like A Demon (natural trait): +4 bonus to all rolls to avoid injury in a vehicular accident. -4 penalty to avoid being in a vehicular accident. This trait only takes effect when the person with it is driving/piloting the vehicle.

[Kokuten]

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causes me considerable agitation

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That would be the meaning of 'squick' I was going for.

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Of course, it's also getting a bit embarrassing. ^_^;;;

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Yah, this isn't exactly alt.sex.wizardsWire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979