Kucinich Introduces Articles of Impeachment Against Bush

[Bob Schroeck]

I'd also point out that -- as far as we know -- he's nowhere near as close to actually doing it as Nixon got;

An addendum: my personal opinion is that the Bush-Martial Law scenario won't come to be, because Bush is obsessed with the "legacy" he wants to leave. As a number of former White House insiders have reported, Bush wants to be remembered as one of the "great" presidents, and this has driven a lot of his policies and actions. The whole Iraq mess is because he want(s/ed) to be remembered for being the one to finally "fix" the Mideast permanently. He won't declare martial law over anything short of a national-scale disaster because it would cement his position in history somewhere far, far south of where he's certain it's supposed to be.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[hmelton]

Personally I agree with Logan.

Until recently I been busy planting and it wasn't until today that I spared time from more important things for political antics.

I started reading the referenced material and the replies in this thread and by the end of the first page my first reaction was to think about ending my
membership.

My second reaction was disappointment..

Sadly I have several radio neighbors who are buying into these obvious political ploys and are reacting just as the politicians planned for them to react, so I
have heard many of the same comments before in the CB and local HAM bands. But just as I haven't stopped talking in the CB and HAM bands I won't stop
visiting this board and posting comments I'm just surprised to see such narrow and biased views cropping up here.

This impeachment of Bush campaign and many of your comments are from my point of view paranoid, silly and a thoughtless buying into partisan politics that is
geared more to whip voters into a kneejerk dogmatic voting pattern than an attempt to obtain some amount of justice.

I consider this impeachment campaign of Bush to be as silly and stupid as the impeachment of Clinton campaign was.

Neither impeachment campaign is/was about justice or righting wrongs, but instead is/was a political move to try and force voters to vote along party lines
with little actual thought about thier decision.

I personally think the last thing most modern politicians want is for the voters to actually think about the issues and become well informed on them by
actually looking at what all the sides have to say on them.

If you focus exclusively only on one set of views and the info provided by people who support that set of views then you run the risk of falling into a
positive feedback loop and settling into some rather outlandish ideas and beliefs.

Every set of views has blindspots and stupid or silly biases that can lead to outlandishly wrong conclusion or beliefs if you immerse yourself solely and
exclusively in those views. Other view points can see things that your favorite or favored viewpoint is blind to.

Here is something I do regularly that can be quite entertaining and sometimes very educational, pick and track a set of news story not just through time but
through various view points and systems of belief.

To get a simplified idea of what I'm talking about pick out several news stories and pay careful attention to how CNN presents each of them then go to FOX
and see how it presents them and then follow that up with a trip to a Japanese or some other nations news that is nominally neutral to the set of news stories
and see how they present them.

I personally usually out of habit and availability check ABC news and FOX news followed by a Japanese website or the freeby Japanese to English newscast on my
dish sat system.

howard melton

God bless

[Bob Schroeck]

Quite honestly, Howard, I don't trust either party any farther than I can throw their heaviest member. Both are fundamentally corrupt and willing to pander to whoever writes the biggest contribution checks. That said, I find Democratic principles are far more likely to be in line with my own than Republican, and in the lack of any evidence or information to the contrary, I will tend to support that party. Not because I am a partisan, but simply out of a variety of enlightened self-interest: I am far more likely to see the kind of things I want out of my government come from Democratic leadership. For one, fiscal conservatism. I don't care how you spin it, wiping out a balanced budget with a surplus and replacing it with the largest national debt in the history of the country is not conservative. It's economic suicide for an individual, and it's economic suicide for a nation. I'd rather side with so-called "tax-and-spend," because at least I know the money is coming from somewhere now, as opposed to being borrowed and left for the future to deal with.

And to prevent this turning into a rant/screed, I'm stopping there.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Black Aeronaut]

Hey guys... Look, I know that some of you think we might be bat-chit crazy to think that Bush might try a martial law. Guess what? I freely admit to
being a bit bat-shit crazy. Oh, and guess what? I'm out here in Japan. Granted, I can't really understand the local newscasts too much and I live on
a US Military installation, but from what I gather Bush's image isn't entirely spiffy over here, either.

Bob's right about what he said about scuttlebut: the current administration has got some pretty severe issues if the common people of the American
workforce are whispering about martial law. And another thing you gotta remember (something we're always told here): don't pay too much attention to
the scuttlebut. Sure, it's good to keep your ear to the ground, but you also have to be smart about what you hear.

You also have to also realize that some pretty nasty and needless things have happened in our country since Bush took office. I can understand that he is
trying to be a great president, but he's simply trying too hard. If he wanted to be known as a great president he should have gone out and sought peace
instead of war. It's not a lost cause - Clinton made good headway in that department (and that has very little to do with NAFTA and his indiscretions in
the Oval Office). The only reason why things are the way they are now is because consistent pressure for peace was not kept up. Instead, we go to war. An
unnoficial war that pissed off the world community at large. And with the wrong country, no less. Bush will be remembered as a great president, all right.

This war has cost us - that is you, me, and everyone else who pays taxes - trillions of US dollars. It has cost us the blood of my fellow Sailors, Marines,
Soldiers, and Airmen. Sure, they may have died for a better purpose. Sure, they may have died fightuing insurgents and terrorists. But did they have to be
fighting them in the first place!?

And let us not forget the toll he has taken on our personal rights. He violates our privacy by tapping our phones and our email accounts at will, has people
arrested with no Miranda Rights and no real reason except for something like they were riding their bike too close to a stadium where he was giving an address
or they had something with an anti-Bush slogan. (I'm not kidding about that part. When he was campaigning for his second term, I spoke with several
people at the local bike shop and coffee house that had been arrested for those reasons without their Mirandas and with no charges).

And don't even get me started on the election fraud. When I am ready to start my own business, Diebold is a company who's products I will refuse to
use, even if they are better or cheaper. I won't even accept their product as second-hand goods, and every time I go to an ATM machine that says
"Diebold" I am reminded of that election and I get a strong desire to vandalize that machine. Don't. Go. There.

None of what I have said is false, really. You can look it up.

I may be biased, but I have my reasons for being so. I am certain that you have your reasons for supporting Bush, but I am unclear as to what those reasons
are. If you are willing to discuss things politely, then I am as well. Just don't expect me to be able to post frequently. Being Forward-Deployed in
Japan is like that.

[Morganite]

The paper here today had a letter to the editor about how the impeachment proceedings (such as they were) had received no media coverage.

Interestingly, he believes this is because it's a "conservative and corporate media".

I find it interesting because the other reasoning I've seen is that the liberal-controlled media is helping the Democrats in their goal of making the whole
thing disappear.

Once again, the media always belongs to the enemy of whoever's currently describing them...

-Morgan.

[Black Aeronaut]

Actually, I think the response that I got from everyone here on my ship pretty much sums it up: "Meh." When I ask why, the general response is something along the lines of, "What's the point now? His term in office is almost over."

I think some people just fail to realize the kind of political nasty an impeachment is. It not only marks you as a failed President, but it also marks your whole administration. And, what's more, it also opens the door to proceedings for criminal charges to be brought against you. I think that this is what everyone wants to hear.

What still ticks me off is that even if Bush Jr. were to be impeached I don't think things would change much. I caught the last half-hour of Shooter earlier and the line by that Senator when they're on the mountain top pretty much sums our problems up: "There are no liberals or conservatives. There are no Democrats or Republicans. There's only Haves and Have Nots."

Somebody needs to do something about corporate lobyists.

[Bob Schroeck]

Anybody who can do anything about corporate lobbyists is already in debt to the corporate lobbyists.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Fidoohki]

the trouble with this impeachment is that it does no good at all and smacks of revenge for

the legitamite ((Yes lying to a grand jury as president for personal gain is in my book

inpeachable)) inpeachment of Clinton.

As for martial law? Well if this was a majority democratic congress with enough democrats

to ramrod an impeachment vote through then I'd agree it would be possible and likely. Of

course if there were enough to do this it would have been done in 2004 or 2006.

If he tried to do it now he'd be thrown out so fast his head would spin.

[khagler]

Fidoohki wrote:

---

the trouble with this impeachment is that it does no good at all and smacks of revenge for


the legitamite ((Yes lying to a grand jury as president for personal gain is in my book


inpeachable)) inpeachment of Clinton.

Not from Kucinich. Granted, I'm not telepathic, but he acts out of principle. As a libertarian I dislike nearly all of his principles, but he's sure
got them. I just don't buy him acting out of desire for revenge. I think his motive was, first and foremost, that it's the right thing to do. Of
course, doing the right thing is so completely out of place and unwanted in US politics that it's inevitably perceived as crazy (Ron Paul gets this a lot
too).

I do suspect he had a secondary motive of pointing out the perfidy of the Democratic Party--saying, in effect, "If those guys believed the stuff they
say to get votes they'd be supporting me." In this, I think it's like Ron Paul's running for President as a real Conservative, and about as
useful. It's far, far too late for working within the system to be of any use.

[Black Aeronaut]

Argh! The whole damn system is in need of an overhaul! Time to change the oil!

[Bob Schroeck]

Fortunately, the chassis is still good, but there've just been too many aftermarket add-ons.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.