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Shifters Playtest Opens
Shifters Playtest Opens
#1
The Shapeshifters files went up for playtest this afternoon, and already sjgames.playtest.gurps.shapeshifters has 68 messages.
I've read ten of them.
And already what was left of my self-esteem is in tatters.
God, I hate this project.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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Re: Shifters Playtest Opens
#2
I don't blame you.However,I do think that something has to be done with Morph-it should be possible to build a Morph character without having to buy every advantage in the book.I therefore came up with the "Physical Adaptation" Enhancement,which is the exact opposite to the "Nuisance Effect" Limitation,and reads as follows:
Physical Adaptation (variable): The shapeshifter with this Enhancement can alter his physique to imitate a particular physical Advantage (or set therof).Such advantages must be realistic animal traits,unless the character can assume imaginary forms.The cost for this enhancement is equal to the character point cost of the Advantage,or 80% of the CP cost of the Advantage,whichever is lower.
Example: A character with Morph-16(10) wishes to be able to fly using wings,so he adds Physical Adaptation (Winged Flight) to his Morph Power as a +30% Enhancement.He only pays a maximum of 24 character points (80% of 30 character points)."There's only one kind of monster that uses bullets""There's only one kind of monster that uses bullets"
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Re: Shifters Playtest Opens
#3
Are you participating in the playtest, Morgan?
> Physical Adaptation (variable): The shapeshifter with this
> Enhancement can alter his physique to imitate a particular
> physical Advantage (or set therof).Such advantages must
> be realistic animal traits,unless the character can assume
> imaginary forms.The cost for this enhancement is equal to
> the character point cost of the Advantage,or 80% of the
> CP cost of the Advantage,whichever is lower.
Interesting. I was going to offer something a little wider-ranging -- an enhancement that allowed the morph to temporarily acquire physical advantages equal in points to half the unmodified Morph advantage/power's cost. But I haven't done the number-crunching on it yet.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Reply
Re: Shifters Playtest Opens
#4
Bob, the key to survival in GURPS playtests is to remember that 8 in 10 people who read those forums are -idiots-.
And I'm not even mentioning the Cult of Stat Normalization. (Yes! Aunt May and Galactus are both 100-point characters with no more than 40 points of disads! Really!)
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.
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Re: Shifters Playtest
#5
I guess I ought to mention that this is my first playtest going through the Pyramid/newsgroups system. The last time I had a whole book playtested was 1993 or 1994 -- Mage -- and that was handled by a considerably smaller playtest community that was far more intimate and family-like. The few things I read seemed more interested in tearing the book down than in building it up.
I am so tempted to let the lead playtested do all the interaction with the newsgroup, but I promised I would stick my nose in from time to time...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Reply
Shifters Playtest
#6
I also came up with the following Enhancement to Morph (I based it on the Variable Advantage from Hero System Fifth Edition)
Omni-Enhancement (+20%/level):Each level of this enhancement can duplicate any ONE +10% enhancement . Each level is cumulative with the preceding one,so a character with 5 levels of this enhancement could have any enhancement (or combination thereof) that had a value of 50% (such as Area Effect or Homing)."There's only one kind of monster that uses bullets"
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Re: Shifters Playtest
#7
Hmm. That seems a lot more general-purpose than Morph-specific.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Reply
I'm not sure if I can post unregistered here...
#8
>I guess I ought to mention that this is my first playtest >going through the Pyramid/newsgroups system. The >last time I had a whole book playtested was 1993 or >1994 -- Mage -- and that was handled by a >considerably smaller playtest community that was far >more intimate and family-like. The few things I read >seemed more interested in tearing the book down than >in building it up.
>
>I am so tempted to let the lead playtested do all the >interaction with the newsgroup, but I promised I would >stick my nose in from time to time...
As a playtester who has taken the time to read the manuscript, post a variety of comments that were certainly intended to be helpful, and participating in other discussions based on other comments, I'm less than enthused in continuing if the author doesn't intend to read the forum.
As I see it the feedback so far in the 500+ messages currently posted can be loosely grouped into 4 categories.
1)This isn't what was expected. Several of us were expecting less of a focus on weres. This may not be a problem at all, I assume the author and SJG have a good idea of what the goal of this book is.
2)Their is too much focus on werewolves. Seems to be a general consensus on this topic. Easy to fix if desired.
3)Complaints about the mechanics. Numerous GURPS books have tried to tackle this subject, all using different mechanics. If you didn't expect feedback on this I'm very surprised. However if you were to read the feedback you'll see it varies a great deal and IMHO there are plenty of good suggestions from mild tweaks to radical overhauls. This is an area where author participation would really help steer the playtest.
4)Suggestions for topics that weren't covered. As this is something you specifically asked for I hope you aren't complaining about it.
I'm sorry you have had such a bad reaction to the playtest so far but I think you'll find that in general the playtesters will genuinely try to give you constructive feedback. Aside from a few posts at the very start I haven't seen many posts that were negative in tone. Even then I think the problem was more that playtesters were epecting a book with less focus on Were creatures than a huge problem with the quality of the book. Obviously we're not going to post about the parts of the book we like, only the parts we think can be improved. So if that's a problem I don't know what to tell you.
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Re: I'm not sure if I can post unregistered here...
#9
For everyone following this topic, Curtis emailed me this message when Ezboard went down and I answered him privately. I won't post my response without his okay, though.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Reply
No problem
#10
Bob-Feel free to post your reply.
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Re: No problem
#11
Thank you, Curtis.
Okay, this is what I wrote back to him on Wednesday night:
Curtis Shenton wrote:> I'm getting all kinds of timeout errors trying to use your ezboard forum to> post. Here's what I was trying to post:Ezboard seems to have gone down sometime early tonight. I've been tryingsince around 6 eastern time to get on, with no luck.> I'm pretty pissed that a large> number of us have wasted our time trying to be helpful on the playtest> board since you don't seem interested in reading the feedback. I'm sorry, I *am* interested in the feedback. But I haven't been onfrequently; and to tell the truth, the huge surge of response is somewhat overwhelming. The lead playtester is supposed to be providingme with digests of what he thinks is the most useful information, but I haven't heard from him since before the playtest; I was goingto be writing him tonight to find out what the deal is.> I'm less than enthused in> continuing if the author doesn't intend to read the forum. In fact it seems> pretty rude to dismiss the efforts of a large number of people, including> several other GURPS authors, in a public forum.I'm not dismissing *anyone* or *anything*. I just don't know where to start.Look, the fact that I haven't posted anything doesn't mean I'm ignoringit. In fact, there is so much that I'm having some trouble sortingthrough it all and deciding what to pay attention to and what to standfirm on.> 1)This isn't what was expected. I don't want to be flip, but on this point I have to say, if this isn'twhat was expected, then they didn't read the outline in the proposal.I delivered almost exactly what I said I would. No one had problems with it at that stage.Unfortunately for those wanting fewer weres, one of the major changes I have to make based on discussions with the line editor involves adding *more* weres -- all those found in Compendium I, in the placeof the Yrth weres.> 2)Their is too much focus on werewolves. Seems to be a general consensus on> this topic. Easy to fix if desired.True enough, and one of the things I am thinking on at the moment. > I'm sorry you have had such a bad reaction to the playtest so far but I> think you'll find that in general the playtesters will genuinely try to> give you constructive feedback. I know -- I've been through this process before, except the last timeI wrote a full book, it was pre-sjgames.com, pre-Net. The playtestgroup was smaller, more intimate, more like a gang of friends you calledover to your house one night to check out the new stuff. This... thisis like stepping out on your front porch and being hailed by a monstrouscrowd. Like I said, I don't know where to start. Other than a fewfamiliar names, I don't know whose opinions I should give a lot of weight to, and who's a mouthy jerk I can safely ignore.> Aside from a few posts at the very start I> haven't seen many posts that were negative in tone. And I think I hit all of those the first day of playtest. The problem for me is that this book has done more to ruin my self-confidence as a writer than anything else since I got into college.And seeing nothing but problems and complaints -- right on down to something as nitpicky as which transliteration system I used for a Japanese name -- doesn't help me feel good about this project. I don't remember how many times in the past two years I have all but given up on it, only to have Kromm talk me back into continuing. Just one "gee, this was a cool idea" would help me immensely, but right now, I just find myself thinking that all I have to show for two years of work is a huge pile of shit that it might be better to throw away than to fix.-- Bob
-------------
Anyway, since then, my lead playtester has sent me the first of the digests. And if you think the Japanese name thing was nitpicky, it turns out that there was a long and vehement thread on whether or not I was correct in calling Ancient Egypt part of the Middle East! Jesus Harold Christ on a fucking handtruck.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Reply
Re: No problem
#12
Well, I haven't had a chance to finish reading everything, and unless I see something major one way or the other I probably wont comment "officially". But I already gave you kudos for the Ryo-ohki comment [Image: smile.gif]
As for the people who are giving you what I will call less-than-constructive criticism (like the transliteration issue), there are several things to remember (I've been an author's sounding board for venting about playtest stuff, so I've done this part before [Image: smile.gif] )
1) There's no way to make everybody happy 100% of the time - even as the author. So expect to get single complaints about just about every little thing in the book.m But don't worry about it until you see the second.
2) People are stupid (and I include myself in this, so I'm not being discriminatory). Stupid people say stupid things, and make stupid comments. Just laugh at them and keep going.
3) That being said, there are a lot of well thought out, well reasoned arguments out there for changing things in one way or another. But just because they have good reasons for wanting things changed doesn't mean you didn't have a good reason for making them the way you did.
4) Remember the 90% rule: 90% of everything is shit. However, you've spent the last 2 years making sure that most of what you have in the book is part of the 10% that isn't. The playtesters haven't, so you get a lot of comments that are also shit. Sorting through this and pulling out the good stuff is a lot of work.
5) Last thing to remember: People are more likely to speak up about something that they don't like than they are about something they do. So most of the stuff you'll hear is gonna be negative - but it doesn't necessarily reflect the true proportions of opinion...
Sorry if you've heard this before, I just figureid I'd let you know you've got some support out there that understands about playtesting.
Oh, and by the way: "Atta boy!" [Image: smile.gif]
Offsides
Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large
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At the risk of seeming like more of an ass
#13
What was wrong with the transliteration discussion? I only skimmed it as I don't claim to know anything about Japanese. As I recall someone felt it wasn't using the same transliteration scheme as GURPS Japan. Assuming I'm not misremembering what's the harm in that? Seems like an easy thing to change and that way the publisher maintains consistency between books.
On the other hand I thought the Middle East thread was pretty ridiculous as well so it's probably just a threshold of nitpickyness thing.
As for Offsides point 5, I think you really need to understand the changes to the SJG playtest process. It's become a lot more formal and is set up to make sure posts are solely on areas that people feel could be improved, not for general discussion of the book. Have a look at the playtest rules at:
www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login/playtest/
I think you'll find that broad comments on the book as a whole, or even the quality of a chapter are actively discouraged. Which leaves little room to give positive feedback.
That said I really like the book. It's very different than what I had expected but I think it covers Weres very well.
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Re: No problem
#14
> This... this is like stepping out on your front porch and being hailed by a monstrous crowd.
He is the messiah!
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Re: At the risk of seeming like more of an ass
#15
Not trying to start a flame war in any respect, just trying to discuss the issues at hand. I have no problem with debate, as long as it's civilized [Image: smile.gif]
I do understand the SJG Playtest process (I was recently involved in the CW5:VDS playtest), I was more trying to help Bob keep perspective. I know the playtest rules are geared more towards "what don't you like" to "what do you like", but the latter is still a part of the process - it's just often silent [Image: frown.gif] .
As to the transliteration discussion (which I just read), I think the issue (at least I my mind) is more that it's a _very_ small thing relative to the rest of the book, and yet it's one of the first major threads in the playtest. As dor using the same scheme as GURPS Japan, that really is an editorial call, and not a playtesting one. And those are explicitly excluded from the playtest rules...
However, at least you're giving clear and reasonable discussion, which makes taking it seriously a lot easier [Image: smile.gif]
Offsides
Drunkard's Walk Forum Moderator and Prereader At Large
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Major Thread?
#16
I'm still trying to wrap my brain around why the Transliteration thread was bad. A playtester noticed an issue, posted it, and others replied. This still seems to me how it should work. That doesn't make it any more of a major thread than any other.
As for it being an editoral decision I can see that. At the same time it's not something an editor will automatically notice, though they might well agree that it should be consistent. Most, if not all SJG editors are probably not familiar with Japanese transliteration schemes. As I recall it was the author of the second edition of GURPS Japan who posted first.
In general most playtests start with the smaller details as it usually takes a bit longer to digest the more complex elements. While it may take some thinking and mulling over to comment on the new Were rules it's pretty easy to say a Japanese word isn't consistent with prior SJG practice.
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Bob's response on the SJG playtest board
#17
Great response to the CH1 comments so far Bob. You're a gentleman and a scholar.
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Re: No problem
#18
> He is the messiah!
No, he's not! He's a depressed author!

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Reply
Re: No problem
#19
Offsides said:
> Sorry if you've heard this before, I just figureid I'd let you know you've got some support out there
> that understands about playtesting.
No, no, that's fine -- it really is the kind of thing I need.
> Oh, and by the way: "Atta boy!"
Thanks -- I needed that.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Reply
Re: At the risk of seeming like more of an ass
#20
> Curtis Shenton said:
> What was wrong with the transliteration discussion?
> As I recall someone felt it wasn't using the same transliteration scheme as GURPS Japan.
Actually, that's what it led to, but the initial message was along the lines of "There's no such spelling in Japanese," with implied overtones of "you must have made it up instead of doing proper research, you amateur punk".
It took a couple levels of responses for someone to point out that my sources used a different -- but equally valid -- transliteration schema than GURPS Japan.
> Assuming I'm not misremembering what's the harm in that?
The harm was the initial message, not the ultimate result. That snotty arrogance... grrrr.
> Seems like an easy thing to change and that way the publisher maintains consistency between books.
Oh, that part's not a problem. I had, in fact, chosen the alternate transliteration to hide the fact that I'd lifted the character's name from a pair of girls in an anime I like. (The two Mitsukis in Parallel Trouble Adventure Dual, in case anyone wonders.) I don't own Japan -- as I recall, it's out of print and impossible to find, and there's nothing in the warehouse to hand out as writer comp copies -- and there's no indication anywhere else that there's a "preferred" schema. I have no problem with changing the transliteration. It's just that the arrogant sumbitch going "there ain't no such spelling" really, really pissed me off. Worse yet, every one of those "error of fact" postings nails me right in my self-confidence, because I do make mistakes, I do get sloppy, and I worked my damned butt off for two years to keep that from happening with this book -- and every time there's something like that, I feel like saying "what's the use? No matter what I do, it's still crap, no matter how hard I work." Even if it the posting isn't justified.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Reply
Re: Major Thread?
#21
> In general most playtests start with the smaller details as it usually takes a bit longer to digest the more
> complex elements. While it may take some thinking and mulling over to comment on the new Were rules
> it's pretty easy to say a Japanese word isn't consistent with prior SJG practice.
I don't buy that. It's like starting a field test on a tank, and having the first complaint be about the color of the fourth bolt on the 96th tread. Instead of something important.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
Reply
Re: Bob's response on the SJG playtest board
#22
> Great response to the CH1 comments so far Bob. You're a gentleman and a scholar.
Thank you. But I'm not all that virtuous. I cut some unwarrantedly snide comments out before I let myself post the thing.
That's one of my faults: I do tend to get over-defensive about my work.

-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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How would that work?
#23
>I don't buy that. It's like starting a field test on a tank, >and having the first complaint be about the color of the >fourth bolt on the 96th tread. Instead of something >important.
How, exactly, would that work? What is important? If I find some minor issues do I need to first post something important, or can I post them if someone else posts something important?
IMHO it's much better to post when you find an issue, than wait for some theoretical time in the future when all the major issues have been found...and you've forgotten about the little things.
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Cutting snide comments
#24
Just remember to cut the snide comments when you read my suggestion about possession being a form of shapechanging. Not my best idea.
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Re: Cutting snide comments
#25
Haven't gotten to that yet, but don't worry, I'll be gentle.
-- Bob
(who really ought to investigate this "sleep" thing he keeps hearing about.)
(But I finally got through a fair amount of the playtest newsgroup just now. Yay.)
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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