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Digressing slightly... I'm guessing "loyal opposition" means something subtly (or not-so-subtly) different in the USA than it does in the Commonwealth.
In the parliamentary system, the term is applied to elected representatives who are not part of the Government. They're loyal to the state, but not to the government. (Having one person as Head of State and a different person as Head of Government helps make the distinction clear. Having a Parliament that legislates and a Cabinet that governs also helps.)
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Rob, the effect is the same only within the party, the established membership don't like or want Trump but the harder they fought the more the populace wanted him so they are stuck with him
Quote:Rajvik wrote:
Rob, the effect is the same only within the party, the established membership don't like or want Trump but the harder they fought the more the populace wanted him so they are stuck with him
And probably go down with him. A fate they are actively trying to avoid. They say that adversity reveals character not build it. Well. Trumps speech after the Orlando massacre revealed his true character. It all it's shiny putrid ugliness. I dare anyone to say otherwise.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
I was looking at an article asking who Trump would pick as VP. I vote either Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann. Might was well double down on the crazy.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
A double-dose of crazy would drive a lot of voters to the other side, yes...
More seriously: Given the persona that Trump has displayed throughout the campaign, do you really think he'll pick anyone who isn't a white Protestant middle-aged wealthy male? Or, possibly, have picked for him (so that Trump can do all the head of state stuff while the VP handles all the head of government stuff)?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Back when George W. Bush was running, a few commentators expressed the notion that Dick Cheney as his VP would provide gravitas -- and intelligence, given that Bush was suggested to be something of an intellectual lightweight even then. Who might the GOP push for the post if they dared hope that he could somehow reduce Trump to the role of his puppet, thereby toning down the craziness..?
-----
Big Brother is watching you. And damn, you are so bloody BORING.
Meanwhile, Colbert sums up what the rest of the world thinks about Trump
Maybe it's hyperbole, but there's a part of me that's genuinely worried about how long it'll be before ye have things like the HUAC popping up, maybe with a little more internment without trial as the only natural response to any pro-islamist who disagrees with the federal line.....
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
Bob Schroeck Wrote:Um, Dartz? About HUAC...
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/14/politics/ ... committee/
Er...
Quote:"We're going to ultimately declare a war on Islamic supremacists and we're going to say, if you pledge allegiance to ISIS, you are a traitor and you have lost your citizenship," he said.
Is that legal? I thought (from the discussions that took place when it was suggested a couple of years ago up here) that there was a treaty saying a country couldn't make somebody stateless.
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Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Oh wow. I didn't see that.......
And next they'll be putting them in internment camps too. Without trial because it's for their own safety or they're enemy supporters , some other justification. All concentrated together like that. How long before pledging allegiance to ISIS becomes refusing to pledge allegiance to the government, or speaking out against a drone or two?
I mean fuck me, that's how it starts.
And ye're all sitting there behind your guns, thinking your safe from the government so you don't actually interact with it and tell it what to do just be glad that it'sover there not bothering you, so it's marching towards some very odious things and it's like the whole world can see it coming, but half of America cant because they think history is that thing hollywood makes movies of rather than a catalogue of shit that you really shouldn't do..... and we're sitting here terrified that they might just hang in their long enough to get a *nasty* surprise. That's how it starts. The first link in Captain Picards chain.
I mean seriously. Okay, so I'm off my head with the drunk right now but isn't there something hideously un-american about an an-american activities committee? Say what you want, so long as we don't disagree with it. I thought the whole point of the amendment was that you could actually call the government out on it's bollocks and not get shuffled off to a secret prison but isn't that exactly what he's proposing - the ultimate end where this is going? And does he, or anyone else agreeing with him not realise what they're eneabling and the ultimate destination these sort of enabling acts ultimately lead to.
I had the experience of having a long and interesting discussion with an Iraqi about Iraq before Freedom dropped in and he said it was like this. You had Saddam and all the party functionaries who got to go in through the front door, while everyone else went in the back - but it was okay because why would you want to go in the front door anyway? Stay away from the front door, and everything was fine.
How many of ye will be going in the back door in a few years time so?
Wow.
Okay. Apologies for the rant but, why do I get the feeling that the entire world can see what high flag trump marches under, except for the people who might elect him.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
I'd post a relevant quote, but I already did that in post #250 in this thread.
So... how about bringing back the original two parties - Federalists and Whigs - and letting the Democrats and Republicans fade away? (
http://xkcd.com/1127/large/]Obligatory xkcd reference) Or maybe having more than two parties, the way the rest of the democracies do things?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Quote:robkelk wrote:
I'd post a relevant quote, but I already did that in post #250 in this thread.
So... how about bringing back the original two parties - Federalists and Whigs - and letting the Democrats and Republicans fade away? (Obligatory xkcd reference) Or maybe having more than two parties, the way the rest of the democracies do things?
Mitt Romney is already talking about a Reconstruction post-2016. Which is ironic, because it's also the term for post Civil War South. And the irony is that the party of Lincoln is now mostly composed of the descendants of the losers of the Civil War. The Dixiecrats are now Republicans.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
Keeping Muslims out of America, and getting them out on paper sounds fairly simple. But the logistic of doings so on a massive scale will prove taxing for a country with infrastructure in as poor a condition of the united states. And then, there's the constitution.
I mean, first, you need an act of congress to enable law enforcement to operate outside the constitution against enemies of the state. This is quite easy to achieve in a country where you already have unlawful combatants and internment camps. This allows you to redefine unlawful combatant and 'enemy supporter' as someone who actively protests against the goverment. These Un-American activities can be determined by a committee, enabling a detainment of the would-be terrorist without trial. Define a particular activity as disloyal, as being 'terrorist'. Then, detain for the sake of public security.
There, that's doable. You can already dronestrike the fuckers, can't ye.
Now, we're onto the meat of things. Stripping these traitors of their citenzship so it's possible to deport them. What right do you have to call yourself American when you actively oppose your elected government? When you demand rights that you haven't paid for? That's not American, is it? Disloyalty before the flag on high, that's treason. Fuck you, you're gone with a stroke of a pen and a rubber stamp. That's conduct unbecoming of an American, you should be glad to have the privelege of being part of this society, not bitching about it.
We're all in this together, us against them, the ones plotting in secret to destroy us
Now, individual deportations are quite expensive. 1 person at a time will take a long goddamned time and a lot of taxpeayers money. Logisitically deportations will need to happen en-masse. The most efficient large-scale people moving system is the locomotive, so, ye'll be deporting the unwanted one trainload at a time. To the South. To the North.
Now, to get a thousand people ona train, we need to gather together. Concentrate them first. They need to be housed and fed - at the taxpayers expense so naturally the resulting camp will be built by the lowest bidder. Maybe Haliburton will do it? We build these privatised camps for concentration to hold these traitors and subversives together. Now, ye can't afford this because who the fuck wants to pay to feed un-American citizens, so, y'know, why not put 'em to work? Make 'em work for their bit to eat -there's no free rides for traitors.. Maybe Haliburton can turn a profit leasing them out to highway construction projects, civil regeneration, construction, farm labour? And then, return to their camp to await the the train. Make 'em pay for the ticket even. No free rides in this land. Fuck the scum.
A lien against their posessions, a seizure as the proceeds of crime? That can be done. Feed it into the budget. Feed it all into the Specially tasked groups doing the roundup, so the whole system becomes self -upporting. From suspicion, to denunciation, to incarceration. No honest taxpayer with nothing to fear need worry about a cent of their money being spent....
Deportations are so expensive aren't they?
Hmm, America does still have the death penalty for treason? Doesn't it? And that's a lot of traitors concentrated together.
Alright. I am very drunk right now. I had one of those days. So, free hyperbole for everyone because there's no way Trump would be that competent. The cabbage.
....what's that droning sound?
Aramcheck?
But that's how it starts, with a thousand little nudges. Keep saying that right up until you're going fuck me, how the fuck did that happen here?
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
It's been a long while since I've seen anyone make that comparison without actually saying the name... (polite applause)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
It's still a bit too unsubtle... It's like the sock around the brick.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?
Maybe, maybe not.
Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Hey, it's going to be the classiest concentration camp you've ever seen. The best. It'll have golden barbed wire all around it, and a super tall guard tower. Barracks like the Taj Mahal Resort. And the best part is that we'll get those people to build their own camps for free! It's going to be so good, you're not gonna believe it. And the ones that work the hardest, we'll deport 'em first as a reward. Work to freedom! I'm telling you, it's going to be great.
The first post in this thread Wrote:So ladies and gentlemen, when debate nite comes around, gather around and
have the popcorn ready. In the words of a circus announcer, "Welcome to
the Greatest Show On Earth"
Wow, has the tone of this thread changed in just one year!
-- ∇×V
Quote:vorticity wrote:
Hey, it's going to be the classiest concentration camp you've ever seen. The best. It'll have golden barbed wire all around it, and a super tall guard tower. Barracks like the Taj Mahal Resort. And the best part is that we'll get those people to build their own camps for free! It's going to be so good, you're not gonna believe it. And the ones that work the hardest, we'll deport 'em first as a reward. Work to freedom! I'm telling you, it's going to be great.
Quote:The first post in this thread wrote:
So ladies and gentlemen, when debate nite comes around, gather around and
have the popcorn ready. In the words of a circus announcer, "Welcome to
the Greatest Show On Earth"
Wow, has the tone of this thread changed in just one year!
Because the general thought was that hell would freeze over before Trump becomes the GOP nominee. guess what, the skating rink has been open. We are looking at clear and present danger here.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
Quote:robkelk wrote:
It's been a long while since I've seen anyone make that comparison without actually saying the name... (polite applause)
You mean... Roosevelt?
I don't know if it's widely known outside the US (it certainly wasn't mentioned in US public schools back when I was in them), but the US government actually did round up over 100,000 Americans with Japanese ancestry and put them in concentration camps during World War 2.
khagler Wrote:robkelk Wrote:It's been a long while since I've seen anyone make that comparison without actually saying the name... (polite applause)
You mean... Roosevelt?
I don't know if it's widely known outside the US (it certainly wasn't mentioned in US public schools back when I was in them), but the US government actually did round up over 100,000 Americans with Japanese ancestry and put them in concentration camps during World War 2.
I was thinking more "Mackenzie King", but I'm Canadian. (The US wasn't the only country that did that.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Trump pivots backward
He can't stay on message.
The currrent VP pick is either Newt Gingrich or Chris Christie. He should pick Palin. Double down on the crazy.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
So Trump picked a VP (who he tried to dump at the last minute if you believe the reports.
Also this:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... ton-214058
My take is that he's goning to do what Dubya did. Have his VP become the co-president. Not really sure about that.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
Okay for those not watching the campaign:
1. The rumor that Donald asked his senior advisors if he can change the VP pick to someone else.
2. Paul Manafort picking a fight with the governor of Oho. Which is stupid because Trump needs John Kasich (the governor) more than Kasich needs Trump. Especially the governor of a swing state like Ohio. Lose Ohio (and Florida) and you lose the election.
3. And of course, the plagiarism scandal of Melania Trump's speech.
And this is just Day 1.
The good news is that no riots outside the Q.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
In a somewhat-related note, the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_New ... nstabulary]Royal Newfoundland Constabulary would like to remind everyone that the Twitter hashtag #RNC refers to them.
We know there's a groundswell of intention that people plan going to move to Canada if Trump is elected President, but it's a bit too soon to be asking the police any questions about conditions here. Besides, there simply isn't enough infrastructure in Newfoundland and Labrador to support all of you - some of you will just have to live west or north of New England, not east.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
Quote:robkelk wrote:
In a somewhat-related note, the Royal Newfoundland Constabulary would like to remind everyone that the Twitter hashtag #RNC refers to them.
We know there's a groundswell of intention that people plan going to move to Canada if Trump is elected President, but it's a bit too soon to be asking the police any questions about conditions here. Besides, there simply isn't enough infrastructure in Newfoundland and Labrador to support all of you - some of you will just have to live west or north of New England, not east.
lol..
Interesting part on the Melania Trump story
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/m ... ers-225825
Quote:“The campaign needs to take some kind of corrective action,” agreed
Amanda Carpenter, a former top communications aide to Texas Sen. Ted
Cruz. “They could fire somebody, and they should do something, but Trump
is incapable of admitting any kind of error.”
"Whoever lifted the two paragraphs is almost entirely at fault,"
added Favreau. "I don't know how anyone else would've known. ... And
this makes it all the more bizarre that they're refusing to admit this
and just fire the person — unless it's someone who can't really be
fired."
Kalen Pruss, a former speechwriter for John Podesta at the Center for
American Progress, said the plagiarism incident was merely a symptom of
a bigger problem with the speech: It was oddly impersonal.
“I would say that more than anything, the mistake shows a lack of
creativity — especially given that Melania's speech was supposed to be a
personal recommendation of her husband,” she said, noting pointedly
that the speech was entirely bereft of humanizing anecdotes about Donald
Trump.
Which raises the question..who wrote the speech and who vetted it. I'm tempted to go with Melania's Trump earlier statement that she wrote all of it. Which raises all sorts of questions as to who vetted it and if they had a vetting process. Either way it's sloppy and shows not ready for prime time for the Trump organization.
__________________
Into terror!, Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell
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