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+--- Thread: Missteps (/showthread.php?tid=1669)
- Bob Schroeck - 02-05-2009
I should also note that "plenty of room" is much larger than you might think. In the portion of DW13-1 that Helen and I have completed, Doug notes
that he's been looking for home for almost a century and a half at that point, and during Eimi's first appearance therein, she mentions a world they
were both in together where he spent at least twenty years...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
RE: Missteps - robkelk - 02-06-2009
And it's up. Bob, I'll send you an HTML version of the revision.
- yumekochan - 02-06-2009
Is it safe to assume Doug doesn't age then? ^_^ Though it'd be funny to see an (uber-)elderly Looney Toons running around...
--Amanda
"Hey, it's not like dying is on my schedule for this week."
--Yumeko Asagiri, Bubblegum Crisis: The Next Generation, part 3
- Bob Schroeck - 02-06-2009
At the start of DW5, Doug notes (somewhat prematurely, but no less accurately) that he seems to have stopped aging in the wake of the events of DW2. In DW2 he
mentions that he possesses the "usual mutant life extension genes", but the Three tossed in a little lagniappe with the song they let him use to
leave that world. Check the lyrics used in the scene where he gates out in chapter 15 -- and check the Coda to the story.
Short answer is yes. In the words of Rush, he is immortal for a limited time -- until he gets home.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Bob Schroeck - 02-06-2009
Oh, and thanks, Rob. I have to run right now, but when I get home I'll check it (and my mail) out.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- DHBirr - 02-06-2009
Quote: he's been looking for home for almost a century and a half at that pointI gather V&V doesn't run on experience points like D&D, or by the time he gets home, with 150 years plus of experience, he'd be
seriously upgraded in combat power. (At any rate, the years should give him a changed perspective; let's hope Shadowwalker is
into older men ) ...For that matter, how would you integrate some of the nifty thingies he's picking up along the way into your game?
-----
Big Brother is watching you. And damn, you are so bloody BORING.
- Shepherd - 02-07-2009
Quote: DHBirr wrote:Given that Doug has stated that he was not one of the heavy hitters on his old team, I don't think he'd be too unbalaced when rejoins
For that matter, how would you integrate some of the nifty thingies he's picking up along the way into your game?
them. Besides, I doubt that many of his 'nifty thingies' are too unique. Didn't he own a flying motorcycle before going on his trip? The Banzai
katana isn't going to do anything that can't be done better by a weapon taken from some random villain with decent weird science melee tech.
----------------------------------------------------
"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV
- Bob Schroeck - 02-07-2009
V&V does in fact run on XP, it is very much like early D&D in its design -- not surprising, given when it was written. But I'm essentially ignoring
that. I will raise the point when Doug re-enters the campaign, and leave it up to the others. But I will not be addressing it in-story.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- robkelk - 02-07-2009
Quote:Given that Doug has stated that he was not one of the heavy hitters on his old team, I don't think he'd be too unbalaced when rejoins them. Besides, I doubt that many of his 'nifty thingies' are too unique. Didn't he own a flying motorcycle before going on his trip? The Banzai katana isn't going to do anything that can't be done better by a weapon taken from some random villain with decent weird science melee tech.And you can get the specs for Leontophonus-A or a flask of Fenspace handwavium anywhere... oh, wait.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Evil Midnight Lurker - 02-07-2009
Leo-A isn't exactly of much use outside of a BGC alternate. And Warrior's World probably has much more reliable weird science than handwavium, if that isn't a contradiction in terms.
--Sam
"We tried to turn her into a cloud of butterflies."
- Bob Schroeck - 02-07-2009
Quote:And Warrior's World probably has much more reliable weird science than handwavium, if that isn't a contradiction in terms.I can't remember if it remained in DW2 or not, but I did write a passage that talked about how Doug loved to putter around the warehouse where they store all the weird tech they take off of villains... So even though we're talking apples and beefsteak tomatoes here, yeah.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- robkelk - 02-08-2009
The question wasn't whether the items Doug is collecting are useful, it was whether they're unique.
Good thing Doug's got those panniers for his bike - it looks like he's collecting a heck of a lot of souveniers... most of which are likely destined to end up in that warehouse. (Have to wonder what happens to Eimi, though; there's no way Doug would leave her on a lonely shelf to be forgotten.)
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- DHBirr - 02-08-2009
Quote: The question wasn't whether the items Doug is collecting are useful, it was whether they're unique.In fact, I was specifically wondering if he gets to keep that staff that punched through Mara. Unless the transition to WW depowers it at least
somewhat, the way it penetrated her defenses is ... intimidating....
Quote: Given that Doug has stated that he was not one of the heavy hitters on his old team, I don't think he'd be too unbalaced when rejoins them.Oh, no? Grabbing any old numbers, just to give perspective, imagine the statement: "I was an eighth-level mage when I left. Now the rest of
you have advanced a level or two, and I'm ... twentieth level." The alternative is to pretend that those 150 years, including all the times he did
things cool enough to make it into the stories, only produced one or two levels worth of experience. How many xp do you think clobbering Mara will be good for?
And assuming the ceremony works, how many for saving her? How many for the part he plays in taking on this Glory character in the BtVS step?
-----
Big Brother is watching you. And damn, you are so bloody BORING.
- robkelk - 02-08-2009
Quote:The alternative is to pretend that those 150 years, including all the times he did things cool enough to make it into the stories, only produced one or two levels worth of experience.Or to let other characters have some, if not all, of those XPs. In DW II, Lisa went from Level 1 Girl Reporter to Level 1 Mage, and she hardly did anything before that happened - that had to have been from Doug's XP pool. (I won't count what happened to Megumi in DW V - that came out of Skuld's XP pool.)
Maybe Doug's only gone up a few levels when he gets home, but Eimi's gone from a level 1 AI to a level 20 AI...?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Bob Schroeck - 02-08-2009
As far as Doug's "advancement" is concerned, I'd rather think of it in GURPS terms, at least as long as I'm writing the stories. So,
it's not that Doug gains X levels, but that he gets a lot of points in cybernetics, and magical theory, and yeah, martial arts, and so on...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Shepherd - 02-08-2009
Quote: Bob Schroeck wrote:Well, in GURPS terms, a lot of Doug's XP probably went into learning a bunch of Gate songs that he'll almost certainly never get to use
As far as Doug's "advancement" is concerned, I'd rather think of it in GURPS terms, at least as long as I'm writing the stories. So,
it's not that Doug gains X levels, but that he gets a lot of points in cybernetics, and magical theory, and yeah, martial arts, and so on...
again, since each individual Gate spell only takes you from one specific dimension to another specific dimension.
Similarly, many of his new technical skills will be at a different TL than his homeworld and will thus be of limited utility. After all, the Bubblegum Crisis
universe was probably one of the more technologically advanced worlds he visited, and most of their tech was still inferior to what he was used to using.
Finally, some existing skills may have suffered atrophy if he couldn't practice them for years at a time.
----------------------------------------------------
"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV
- robkelk - 02-09-2009
Quote:Well, in GURPS terms, a lot of Doug's XP probably went into learning a bunch of Gate songs that he'll almost certainly never get to use again, since each individual Gate spell only takes you from one specific dimension to another specific dimension.Unless he wants to be nasty...
On Warrior's World, Doug switches off the MP4 player. 'Well,' he thought, 'the song did something, but I have no idea what. Must have been another null song.'
Meanwhile, in another universe, a gate opens up under Bert Van Vliet's feet, sending him to what would become known as the Bubblegum Zone world.
(AFAIK, Bert never did explain how his SI character ended up moving between universes. )
Repeat for any number of "character ends up in a different universe for no known reason" stories, replacing the character and universes as appropriate...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
- Bob Schroeck - 02-09-2009
Mmm. Given that we've established BGZ and DW are both in the same metacontinuum, that's entirely possible...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- trboturtle - 07-10-2009
Quote: robkelk wrote:
Quote: Well, in GURPS terms, a lot of Doug's XP probably went into learning a bunch of Gate songs that he'll almost certainly never get to use again,Unless he wants to be nasty...
since each individual Gate spell only takes you from one specific dimension to another specific dimension.
On Warrior's World, Doug switches off the MP4 player. 'Well,' he thought, 'the song did something, but I have no idea what. Must
have been another null song.'
Meanwhile, in another universe, a gate opens up under Bert Van Vliet's feet, sending him to what would become known as the Bubblegum Zone world.
(AFAIK, Bert never did explain how his SI character ended up moving between universes. )
Repeat for any number of "character ends up in a different universe for no known reason" stories, replacing the character and universes as
appropriate...
Ishmael: "Well, don't look at me. What happen to Mister Van Vliet was not my doing. The paperwork would have taken months to process."
BGA Craig: "So what happened to me?"
Ishmael: For you, it took years. I expect the final approval to come through in about....forty years."
Craig
- Shepherd - 07-10-2009
Good news. I've been reading the 4th edition version of GURPS Supers, and not only does it provide the perfect solution for much of Doug's power creep,
it also does so by lowering his total cost in character points by one.
The forgetful quirk on page 33 is for characters who forget about some of their powers or equipment when they may be good solutions for a problem (and since it
is a quirk, there are no dice rolled, it happens when you say so).
With this quirk, you can state that Doug has a huge arsenal of songs worth thousands of points, and then have him forget to use them during missions. So, if
konwa no hurricane from BGC is the ideal song for dealing with a situation, but Doug didn't spend any character points on the song, then he conveniently
fails to consider using the song during the battle and has a d'oh! moment after the fact.
----------------------------------------------------
"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV
- Bob Schroeck - 07-10-2009
I'm not sure where you see the songs themselves costing thousands of points. IIRC, Doug would be best implemented in GURPS 4 via a cosmic power pool, and
each song would be a different allocation of the pool points.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Shepherd - 07-10-2009
Quote: Bob Schroeck wrote:Possibly, but possibly not. I referred to 'thousands of points' because of the worry that you expressed in a previous post that Doug's
I'm not sure where you see the songs themselves costing thousands of points. IIRC, Doug would be best implemented in GURPS 4 via a cosmic power pool, and
each song would be a different allocation of the pool points.
adventures through the dimensions would leave him overpowered upon returning to the campaign world.
As for the use of a cosmic power pool, if Doug's powers were modeled using Modular Abilities (cosmic), then they would start off at 10 points per actual
point of ability before applying modifiers.
Doug's powers allow him to adopt mental (+0%), physical (+100%), and social advantages/skills (+50%).
Modular Abilities (cosmic) normally take one second to activate per ability gained whereas Doug's power activates all of the abilties at once. The Reduced
Time enhancement normally costs +20% per level, with each level halving the time required to activate the ability. Since Doug's power sets can range from a
single ability (requiring no extra time) to a huge array of minor abilities (which would require multiple levels of the enhancement), the GM may allow for a
generic +50% enhancement to indicate that each power set takes only 1 second to activate no matter how many powers it includes.
As for limitations, Doug's powers are Magic (-10%) and Detect Based (Hearing) (-20%). Each individual power set requires an appropriate power song (likely
modeled as: material component -10%), can only be used once per day (-??%), lasts only as long as the power song plays (-??%), and works only as long as other
songs don't interfere with the power song, which is an Accessibility limitation (-??%). Additionally, his power songs are drawn from a finite (but growing)
list (-??%) and there is evidence that there is a limitation to how many of these songs he can play before exhausting his power and needing to recharge (Costs
Fatigue: -5% per point).
Unless I've missed some major modifiers, it looks to me as if the power's limitations are unlikely to do more than counter the cost of its
enhancements. That means that the adjusted cost would be about 10 points per point of modular ability, which means that Doug would have to spend about 3000
points in order to gain 300 points to rearrange with his power songs. This is in addition to his high Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, and Health and the
points spent on Longevity, Combat Reflexes, Danger Sense, his chaos field, skills, martial arts techniques, etcetera. This clearly puts Doug well into the
realm of godlike power.
Alternately, Doug's powers could be modeled using the Alternate Form advantage. Buying the most expensive form costs 15 points (modified by enhancements
and limitations) plus 90% of the cost of the actual power 'package'. Each additional form costs a flat 15 points (modified by enhancements and
limitations). None of the enhancements for the previous power apply here, although most of the limitations do. Assuming that the limitations add up to at least
-80% (the largest possible discount), this means that Doug's most expensive power song costs 3 points plus 90% of the cost of the power 'package'
while each additional song costs 3 points.
----------------------------------------------------
"Anyone can be a winner if their definition of victory is flexible enough." - The DM of the Rings XXXV
- Bob Schroeck - 07-10-2009
Quote:which means that Doug would have to spend about 3000 points in order to gain 300 points to rearrange with his power songs.Yeah, that's in the same neighborhood as the ballpark figure I worked up some years back when I first went through the 4th Edition rules. Even then it might be too much. I really have to figure out what his most expensive GURPS effect is -- maybe the weather control stuff -- and price the Modular Abilities accordingly. And I'd probably handwave some stuff like the gate songs as plot devices, really.
What I thought you were talking about was buying each song as a skill, like the magic system, and I was thinking "no, no, it doesn't work that way."
And yeah, it doesn't matter what system it is, if it's based on points, Doug is obscene. That's one reason I love V&V. It doesn't get caught up in the accounting, it just lets you do heroic stuff.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
- Foxboy - 07-10-2009
Old School "FASERIP" Marvel Superheroes is similarly unconcerned with "balance" between players
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''
-- James Nicoll
- ECSNorway - 07-10-2009
Bob Schroeck Wrote:Mmm. Given that we've established BGZ and DW are both in the same metacontinuum, that's entirely possible...Which means that so are Twisted Path, Legion's Quest, Undocumented Features, and a slew or two of others. Including at least one Battletech universe...
Quote:Doug shook his head as the disorientation of gate travel started to fade. Then he looked at the object his bike had crashed into. It was large, blocky, and metallic, and shaped rather vaguely like a ... foot?--
He paused, looked up, and then looked up... taking in the vaguely vulture-like hunched shape of the thing, the heavy cannon resting over its shoulder, and the massive club-like arms that looked to end in yet more bits and bobs of heavy artillery. One of which seemed to be pointing in his direction, and boy didn't that barrel look big from way down here...
"Oh boy."
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.