I guess reality was just too difficult to ignore...

[SilverFang01]

Ayn Rand Railed Against Government Benefits, But Grabbed Social Security and Medicare When She Needed Them

I don't understand why these people rally against social programs that can help them in their hour of need.  What do they have against being their brother's keeper? 
Granted, there are people that abuse the system, but that should not be enough to condemn everyone to a life of misery when bad times hit.  Are they so arrogant, so blind that they believe that bad things cannot happen to them as well?

[ordnance11]

I figured sometime back that some sections of the American public are two faced about the federal government. They are more than willing to abolish sections or turn it over to the private industry..all in the name of laizze-fair capitalism. I agree that there are certain things that government does not do very well and would be well advised to stay clear off. There are also some things that government does very well and shutting it down or privitizing would have dire consequences. I can think of two examples of the top of my head.
1.The California energy crisis of 2000-2001  Grey Davis may had been booted out for his handling of the mess, but it was the Republicans under Pete Wilson who started deregulation that set it up.
2. The rise of the privatized military companies or PMC's. I used to think the plotline of Metal Gear Solid 4 was fiction when I read it was more truth than fiction to it. I grant you mercenaries have along history, but I'm uneasy about our use of them.
__________________
Into terror!,  Into valour!
Charge ahead! No! Never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn!
- Scarlett Pimpernell

[Black Aeronaut]

Agreed that certain things need to be strictly regulated for the sake of public interests: energy for one. It's incredibly hard on the public when certain energy resources are suddenly deregulated and the companies that supply those resources go wild. And nine-times-out-of-ten most of the extra money they make goes into the pockets of the investors and not into improvement of plants and infrastructure.

Telecommunications could use a light touch, say a set of standards that must be met - I think the FCC handles this, though, and that they do a half-way decent job. Internet, on the other hand, is Free Country and should be left alone for the most part. Malicious activity should be policed, and no more.

Gun control... I'm of the opinion that we should have whatever we'd like to have. If I want to keep a fully functional antique Sherman tank, then I should be able to so long as I can prove that I can competently and responsibly operate it and not go on a rampage with the thing. Of course, I'm also of the opinion that weapons should be registered, but not through a municipal system. The movie, Red Dawn, illustrates just how easy that is to turn against the populace. Weapon's registry should be a Federal digital database contained in two locations (one for back-up) and with a RAID system to make it difficult to get any data off the system unless you steal every single HD drive in the facility and figure out which drive matches to which. And kudos to any city/county/state that says that carrying a gun with the serial numbers filed off is a felony offense.

Education... good lord, it sucks out there. I'm not saying we all need to turn into Tiger Moms, but we seriously need to raise the bar and include early childhood education as part of the standard package. And education these days is no longer a matter of regional importance - the nation as a whole is being made to suffer for it when world-wide corporations look to countries other than the USA for skilled workers. The federal government needs to take firm control over education and make massive improvements, QED.

And on the same token: For God's sake, get the freakin' Ivy Leagues back in check! The tuition fees are out of control! A prestigious education should not be the the sole providence of the wealthy! I don't care how many grants and scholarships your throw out there, it is not enough! Nip it at the root, God dammit!

Privatized paramilitaries? Oh hell no! It's bad enough that we can barely afford our own military budgets, but now we're throwing gobs of taxpayer's dollars at people that are not guaranteed to give a rat's ass?

Also on the same token: WTF is up with government contracts? Price gouging much? Call me a socialist, but firm control must be taken of these companies that charge outlandish prices for parts that are supposed to be mass-produced. I swear to God, I wanna start up a company, call it ACME, hire on just about anyone that's been laid off from government contracts, and outbid everyone for everything just because I serve the USA and not my pocket book.

It boggles the mind that there are people that want to tear down the medical care reforms. Fortunately, the so-called 'Tea Party' Republicans are having a very hard time of it lately. Let's hope that they are always stone-walled every time they try to bring it down - we only want to see improvements, not steps backwards. Some of my favorite people on the Internet are going to be able to get insurance for the treatments they need because of medical care reforms.

And is there honestly anything wrong with keeping a sharp eye on the stock market? Sure, there's ups and downs, but this last slow-crash (fuck that 'It was a recession!' BS) could have easily been avoided if people had wised up and realized what they were doing instead of worshiping the all-mighty dollar sign.

Other than that, people should be free to do as they please. If I want to go rolling down the highway in a loud-as-the-Gods 4x4 truck, giant-ass stacks in the back exhausting a V-10 Cummings Turbo-Diesel (running on bio-diesel - I'm not that thoughtless of the environment), front end strong enough plow with a house and not have a single bit out of place, winch powerful enough to haul the Sears Tower off it's foundations, rack of assault rifles (properly secured, with trigger locks, condition four, ammo locked up as well), and about six of my best friends chugging beers in the cargo bed as they parade the latest kill we just bagged on our hunting trip... then dammit, I should be able to do it!

[SilverFang01]

To me, regulations are an important part of a functioning society, as mentioned before the power utilities in California went crazy once regulatory oversight was weakened or taken away completely, hell, the whole foreclosure mess is a good example of what can happen when you don't have a set of rules in place so that everyone plays fairly, or when those in charge of overseeing do not do their jobs. 
About guns I believe that people have lost respect for the damage they can do.  They have become a substitute for argument and debate, instead of the tools for hunting or self defense they actually are. 
And I agree with blackaeronaut about education.
What I don't get, and I think I never will is the constant attack against social safety net programs, like SS, or Medicare, or what little was actually passed as health reform.  This attitude of as long as I have what is mine you can go die for all I care sickens me.  Some people act as if the fact that they have plenty to live does not mean that someday they or their sons or daughters will not need a safety net when things go south.

[ECSNorway]

What I don't get, and I think I never will is the constant attack against social safety net programs, like SS, or Medicare, or what little was actually passed as health reform.  This attitude of as long as I have what is mine you can go die for all I care sickens me.  Some people act as if the fact that they have plenty to live does not mean that someday they or their sons or daughters will not need a safety net when things go south.

The reason you don't get it is that it doesn't exist. The "constant attack" is an illusion perpetrated by the Left in order to prevent the Right's efforts at reforming these programs to make them an actual safety-net, rather than a vote-buying bonanza. All we really want is for that kind of support to be saved for people who actually need it, rather than splurged around as widely as they are now.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[robkelk]

What I don't get, and I think I never will is the constant attack against social safety net programs, like SS, or Medicare, or what little was actually passed as health reform.

It's a part of human nature - someone doesn't need something, so he thinks that nobody needs that thing, and thus it's a waste of resources to provide that thing. Social Security isn't needed in the affluent parts of the US, so people in those parts of the country wonder why money's being wasted on providing Social Security to the parts of the US that do need it. Genetically-modified crops aren't needed in Europe, so Europeans legislate against them while ignoring the famines in Africa that GMOs could prevent. Many Australians rarely have to deal with below-freezing temperatures, so they wonder why Canadians use so much energy to heat their homes in the winter. And so on...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Rod.H]

Genetically-modified crops aren't needed in Europe, so Europeans legislate against them while ignoring the famines in Africa that GMOs could prevent.

Is there any evidence of that 'cos I thought the EU's stance on GM crops was both more an anti-Monsanto & need more research thing.

Many Australians rarely have to deal with below-freezing temperatures, so they wonder why Canadians use so much energy to heat their homes in the winter.

I'm an Australian and I don't think that as I do live in a location that encounters the odd temp near or below 0C, night time temp and have seen snow - it's bloody cold and wet and I don't blame you for using what ever you need to get and keep warm, Regardless of whatever stupid press piece the Australian Greens put out vilifying yous. I believe they've gone quite for the time being due to their stance against dams......

--Rod.H

[Dartz]

The problem with GM crops isn't that they're genetically modified. It's Monsanto and their patent asshattery. And the simple fact that once you introduce these crops into a wild environment they're going to spread everywhere quite happily on their own.... which is a patent lawyers dream. They infest other farms against the farmer's will, while Monsanto lawyers move in to sting them for patent violation. Never mind what happens when stuff with a programmed-in self-kill gets out there.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Bob Schroeck]

For God's sake, get the freakin' Ivy Leagues back in check! The tuition fees are out of control! A prestigious education should not be the the sole providence of the wealthy! I don't care how many grants and scholarships your throw out there, it is not enough! Nip it at the root, God dammit!

I'd just like to note that Princeton's tuition increase this year is the lowest in more than 4 decades -- the lowest since 1965 or 1966, when there was no increase at all. And they're hoping to keep holding it down to inflation rate or so.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[ECSNorway]

The problem with GM crops isn't that they're genetically modified. It's Monsanto and their patent asshattery. And the simple fact that once you introduce these crops into a wild environment they're going to spread everywhere quite happily on their own.... which is a patent lawyers dream. They infest other farms against the farmer's will, while Monsanto lawyers move in to sting them for patent violation. Never mind what happens when stuff with a programmed-in self-kill gets out there.

Yeah. We've been around this merry-go-round once before. Folks got kind of upset when most seed stock available commercially was sterile, in order to force farmers to have to keep buying it... so after they banned that, most farmers who went to buy the new fertile seedstock found themselves stuck with contracts that forced them not to replant, so that they have to keep coming back and buying more seed stock.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[CattyNebulart]

Denmark get these things right, IMHO, but they get plenty of things wrong too.

In denmark rather than having to fill out a folder of paperwork every year they just send you a letter along with the forms pre-filled out and say; This is what you owe us, if it's wrong contact us within 2 weeks, otherwise we'll just take the money out of your bank account.

In denmark you get paid to go to school, rather than the reverse.

In denmark everyone has healthcare, you can buy private insurance if you don't want to have to wait as long for non-emergency treatment.

In denmark thanks to the strong unemployment protections recessions are never as severe as they are elsewhere, as the unemployment benefits automaticly help stabilize the economy.

In denmark there is effective regulations on many things, meaning that cellphones and internet accesses are about an order of magnitude cheaper or better.

Now there is also plenty of things denmark gets wrong, such as the absurd tax on all books to reimburse danish authors who otherwise couldn't make a living. If you can get a used paperback for 30$ you are getting it cheap. There are many other such language subsedies to try and keep the language alive, but it's probably a lost cause, 5 million people is just not enough to sustain a language these days. There are also quite some things that are over-regulated and over-subzidized, like farming (as opposed to america where it's under regulated and over-subzidized is the norm).

Other things are more of a different choice, which I quite frankly think is the better choice, such as choosing stability over growth, the massive social programs have a very real cost in that the economy won't grow as fast during the upswing, which has the counterpoint of not shrinking as much or as fast during the downswing, it also means that it is much much harder to get a job, but once you have it it is more secure. The prices of everything are higher, but on the counterpoint there is far less poverty.

Some stuff is also just stupid, such as restricting building's heights to keep the skyline the same as it has been since the eighteen hundreds or so.

There is also the negative of not getting the shiny toys as soon, but once they get them they tend to be shinier. For example, Internet access was nowhere near as good as it was in the us even as recently as 2000 or so, and was more expensive. Now internet connectivity is both cheaper and better. This wouldn't be the case without an open market where these things can be developed and deployed more freely, but in such a market you tend to have problems with local monopolies or duopolies that collude, whcih is what you have in most of the USA.

Now america couldn't afford denmarks approch because denmark is a far richer country (per capacita) then America. And all those benefits have a very real cost of paying roughly twice as much in taxes (but no, or at least much lesser student debt, no need to pay for health insurance, etc).
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[ECSNorway]

So, Catty, how much choice is there for private insurance, and how good is the quality of coverage? How much does it cost? My psoriasis treatments cost (my insurer) upwards of $30k/year, would the Danish government healthcare pay that? Or would they deem it a "cosmetic" problem and dismiss it, as I had one insurer try to in the past?

What happens if I want to send my kids to a school not approved by whoever hands out the money for that particular program?

And all those benefits have a very real cost of paying roughly twice as much in taxes

Yeah, that'd pretty much kill the US economy right there.
--
Sucrose Octanitrate.
Proof positive that with sufficient motivation, you can make anything explode.

[Dartz]

Having a government-run healthcare system means people aren't forced to by insurance. Here, we have the Government system, and also the option of paying for private insurance. Because the private insurance isn't a must-have the way it is in the States, it keeps prices down quite a bit, while in theory encouraging insurers to actually provide a better standard of care than the Government system.... otherwise nobody would buy their insurance. Admittedly, it's not hard to beat the standard of care offered by the HSE (it was woefully mismanaged by the last Government during the boom years and they were rightly excoriated for it) but at the same time My Uncle is still alive today because of the State-run healthcare system after his insurer cut and run on him.

I also personally feel better having life-critical things in the hands of the government which in theory is answerable to me rather than a private company, which is only answerable to it's shareholders. i can vote the government out, but I can't do that do some pencil-pushing middle manager who's looking for every possible reason to deny care and save a little money.

You also have to remember that State-run services can also provide a return to the economy far beyond their cost to the taxpayer. Take the Irish railway network. It'll never run at anything like a profit, there just isn't the passenger numbers or commercial demand to do it. A private company might well chop unprofitable routes, while a State company can well continue to operate at a loss, while the economic activity the railway brings, such as to factories shipping produce or the movement of tourists/shoppers will more than make up for the extra loading on people's tax bills. Providing such services can, while loading the individual taxpayer, benefit the economy as a whole.

Of course, none of this takes into account raw incompetence and cronyism at the heart of the Government. If you want a good argument in favour of regulation and State involvement, take a look at what the banks here did when the Government's back was wilfully turned.

But, I can vote the government out. And I will in February.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[CattyNebulart]

So, Catty, how much choice is there for private insurance, and how good is the quality of coverage? How much does it cost? My psoriasis treatments cost (my insurer) upwards of $30k/year, would the Danish government healthcare pay that? Or would they deem it a "cosmetic" problem and dismiss it, as I had one insurer try to in the past?

I'm fairly certain it would be covered. Private insurance is very expensive, but I don't know hard numbers. For what it's worth the danes are the population that is happiest with their healthcare system world wide according to CNN.

What happens if I want to send my kids to a school not approved by whoever hands out the money for that particular program?

Then you don't get the money of course. But the options tend to be quite far ranging, forinstance IIRC correctly all certified US schools are covered. Exactly what is covered and what is not differs from time to time as administrations and budget pressures shift, much like medicaid changes over the years in what and how it covers.

Yeah, that'd pretty much kill the US economy right there.

As I said the US could not afford it. Also a Jarring, sudden change would induce a lot of shocks to the system, you would need to build towards something like this over several decades. Also consider everything that is saved, most of my friends pay more on their student loans than I do on my mortgage, and my healthcare benefits would be a very sizable portion of my paycheck if it was paid to me, the difference with the danish system is that you see it before you need to give it to the goverment, the money is still going to healthcare either way.

This also means that if you lose your job you don't lose your healthcare, which can be a major consideration with a chronic illness, esspecially an expensive one. Some people can't be employed at a small buisness because it would drive the buisness insurance premiums way up.

look at it this way, suppose you get into a car accident, the police will show up without you having to pay for it, (in most places) the firebrigade will also show up without having to pay for it, but the ambulance might bankrupt you.

In theory I have no problem with a private for-profit health care system, but then you must allow such things as throwing patients who can't pay anymore out of the hospital, even if that would kill them. Needless to say I wouldn't want to live under such a system, but if you don't you get the problem 'who pays', and if it's collective then it's not a good idea to run it as a for-profit.

-*-*-
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[Ayiekie]

So, Catty, how much choice is there for private insurance, and how good is the quality of coverage? How much does it cost? My psoriasis treatments cost (my insurer) upwards of $30k/year, would the Danish government healthcare pay that? Or would they deem it a "cosmetic" problem and dismiss it, as I had one insurer try to in the past?

ECSNorway, despite what you may have heard (and I can't imagine what source it might have been, really!), in the portion of the first world that has publically funded health care, i.e., "every first world country that isn't the United States", people do not get tossed out of hospitals or denied treatment because their conditions aren't important enough. There is no systematic mechanism to accomplish this, and the few times something like that happens for whatever reason (almost always "not enough thorough testing was done, patient sent home, undiscovered condition kills patient", which happens in the US too), public outrage ensures those responsible pay for it. The main issues with publically funded health care tend to be when political parties cut funding to it, which does not lead to people not getting care, but instead leads to infrastructural problems, notably attempts to increase the throughput of patients so they are not taking up scarce hospital beds. As well, there tends to be a shortage of doctors in rural areas, leading to longer trips or difficulty in finding a family doctor. While not ideal, none of this results in the actual denial of care - which is one of the many, many reasons why people in countries with publically funded health care are generally healthier, live longer, et cetera, than people in the United States.
Doctors in a publically funded health care system do not generally have any financial incentive in not providing treatment - they get paid to work, and they have far more to lose from dismissing a patient than from treating them regardless of their personal opinion of the patient's condition. Insurers are exactly the opposite - their entire livelihood depends on paying out as little as possible to as few people as possible (and in the United States, it has come out that several health insurers did in fact specifically pay out bonuses for people finding ways to deny payment to claimants). Your paranoia over the effects of a publically funded health care system are not only based on a fundamental misunderstanding of free market incentives, but also fly in the fact of the statistical evidence of virtually every country with publicly-funded health care, which is an awful lot of evidence to swim against.

[Epsilon]

So, Catty, how much choice is there for private insurance, and how good is the quality of coverage? How much does it cost? My psoriasis treatments cost (my insurer) upwards of $30k/year, would the Danish government healthcare pay that? Or would they deem it a "cosmetic" problem and dismiss it, as I had one insurer try to in the past?

I don't know where Catty comes from but up her in Canada I'm fairly certain psoriasis treatments are covered by the government. I have a friend with psoriasis so I could ask him to be certain.
------------
Epsilon

[khagler]

Well, I know that I wouldn't be happy about having my money stolen to pay for some guy's psoriasis treatment. But then, where I live the reality is that the money is still being stolen, only it's being used to slaughter hundreds of thousands of people on the other side of the world. In that context, the psoriasis treatment doesn't look so bad.

[Rev Dark]

And your money is being stolen for police services, fire services, critical infrastructure, roads... The bastards....

[Epsilon]

And your money is being stolen for police services, fire services, critical infrastructure, roads... The bastards....

Indeed. Health Care is an infrastructure. And like all infrastructures, it works better (and is more profitable for all involved) if the government handles it.
--------------
Epsilon

[Valles]

Indeed. Health Care is an infrastructure. And like all infrastructures, it works better (and is more profitable for all involved) if the government handles it.

That's the best and most concise way I've ever heard that put. Thank you.
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[khagler]

Well, I know that I wouldn't be happy about having my money stolen to pay for some guy's psoriasis treatment. But then, where I live the reality is that the money is still being stolen, only it's being used to slaughter hundreds of thousands of people on the other side of the world. In that context, the psoriasis treatment doesn't look so bad.

I was just looking at my W2 form (for people in other countries: an IRS form which shows how much money was stolen from your paycheck for the year), and compared it to ammo prices at ammoman.com (my favorite ammo source). In 2010 the money the U.S. Government stole from me would pay for just under 32,000 rounds of 5.56mm rifle ammo. The good news, though, is that Imperial Stormtroopers are such lousy shots that, on average, that probably wasn't enough to kill any rebels. The bad news, though, is that I've never seen any study on the average number of bullets fired to kill an innocent bystander when Stormtroopers get twitchy and blindly spray bullets in all directions.