[RFC] Thoughts for an original story...

[Black Aeronaut]

Okay, my fiance has said to me in the past, "Why don't you write an original story?"
I've had ideas, but they all kinda stall.  Except earlier today I had another one.  It's a bit formulaic, but I think I can throw in enough interesting bits to keep it from being boring.
First, the history.
We have a set of binary planets - perfectly balanced at each other's lagrange points so there's no tidal forces to rip them apart.  Both worlds are Earth-like, with contenents, large oceans, and planted right in the middle of the sweet spot of a star system.  Inteligent life evolved on one of the worlds into a civilazation.  Eventually, they colonised their not-too-distant sister world.  Over the course of a century or two, the culture on the sister-world diverges enough that a war is caused by whatever means.  It matters not anymore because both civilizations bombed each other back into the iron age.
Time passes and both worlds slowly build themselves back up to their second space-age, but ancient-yet-vivid memories remain of a cataclysm brought on by demonic enemies from their respective sister-worlds.  Naturally, they start to pick up where they left off.
Now, along comes the Visitors.  They're not like the people on these two worlds, of course.  They're enlightened scientists and explorers who sometimes uplift species they deem suitable (i.e.: smart enough to know that the guys the just came down from the sky aren't really gods, nor are they your enemies) all in the name of promoting diversity and trade in the greater galaxy.  Of course, they have rules about this sort of situation, and for the most part they have to let these people sort it out themselves.  However, there is a proviso for setting the cat among the canaries.
Two infants are asked for, one for each world, and two families courageously sacrifice their newborn children.  (Yes, one male, one female)  It is a simple test - give them a child of your own and see how they choose to raise that child.  This will show if there is any hope to be had for the unwitting perspective client-race.
While the Visitors are different, they are not so different that each child cannot live a normal life, as they share some similarities in the number of apendages and basic biochemistries.  They are also telepathic, but the 'bandwidth' is proportional to range - at the maximum range, only the vaguest emotions can be conveyed.  Up close, though, it is not uncommon to form a gestalt-mind for when it is needed.  The cannot act as direct-repeaters, though.  They can pass along information, but the voice will be theirs and theirs alone.  Gestalts, even though they are completely networked, require at least one mind to be a focal-point - a ring-leader of sorts to take charge of the group.
At the range of the sister-worlds, the two children will be somewhat aware of each other's existence.  They won't have any concrete idea, except for the vague notion that maybe there is something like him/her self over on that other world.  They are also vaguely aware of the observation team that's been left in charge with this long-term task.  They wait at a temporary observation posts stationed at one of the other lagrange points.
The peoples of the two sister worlds are not heartless.  While the sudden appearence of the infant children is mysterous, they're not about to let that be cause to make the childrens' lives miserable.  While the envoronment they are raised in is not particularly controlled, it is closely monitored.  The families chosen are both military, and fully aware that this isn't simply a case of little-boy/girl-lost.  The families grow to love their respective children, and the children thus grow to love their adopted families and peoples, even though they themselves wonder about their mysterious origins.
Love of one's people, especially when raised in a military family, easily leads to a certain degree of pride and nationalism.  My people must be protected, they think to themselves, and of course they sign up for military service.  This leads to the usual sort of contradictory repulsion/attraction you'd expect when the two cross swords the first time.  Of course, with their telepathic talent, it also leads to the expected "Get out of my mind!" and "You first!" reaction. (^_^)
That can lead to two things: psychosis or just accepting it.  Since the two are pretty well balanced individuals, this leads to the latter.  And that, of course, leads to the seeds of understanding, then romance, and then, of course, a cluster-fuck as the two adopted children begin to speak out: "They're not so different from us!"
From there, we can go for several outcomes.  My least favorite being the total tragedy: both are executed for treason and the war continues unabated.  Another outcome somewhat less bad is the two are killed while on some mission to prove their point... but in the end, the two sides see what they were getting at and begin to talk to each other instead of just shooting.  Or, reverse it: they are picked up by the observation team after the two find that their peoples won't listen to reason - they live out their lives regretful of that fact even though they are in the comfort of their own kind.  And then, finally, the WAFF version (aka the Happy Ending): our two heroes succeed in their mission and become amabssadors between their peoples, negotiating not only their peace, but their uplift as well.
Thoughts?

[Valles]

Astronomy-wise, the 'mutual Lagrange' placement isn't necessary, or even really possible without an implausibly exact match in the masses of the two bodies. Instead, you have two options:

First, you can just accept the tidal stresses. If both planets are relatively metal-poor, the natural radioisotope heat at their cores will be lessened and overall vulcanism only somewhat higher than Earth's. Or you can give them comparable densities, and volcanic zones bigger than the safe ones; eruption and quake frequency will still probably not be that much higher than Earth's tectonic zones - Japan, Italy, and California come to mind - just more widespread.

Second, you can let the worlds lock to each other - as the Moon is to Earth - and get their 'day/night' cycles from the progression of their mutual orbits. This is, as I understand the astronomy, the more likely case anyway. There are worldbuilding guides out there on the internet that actually lay out how to calculate the distances, orbital periods, and relevant Roche limits; the two-planet system I calculated for one of my own stories involved one planet substantially larger than Earth and another a little smaller, and their twenty-eight hour orbit was still well short of the point of tearing each other apart.

The larger world also took up a sixty-degree arc of the smaller's sky.
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[Logan Darklighter]

Valles is right. The exact match is not likely. So one planet will always be the dominant (even if not by much.) 

One thing. I'm just tossing this off quick so I haven't rechecked it. But don't our oceans on Earth in concert with the Moon dampen the tendency for tidal lock? In other words - the tidal forces on the oceans that the Moon and Sun both produce that make the oceans wobble back and forth on the Earth's surface have prevented the planet from tidally locking to either the Moon or the Sun? Later I'll have to dig this up, but I've got a copy of a book called "What if the Moon didn't Exist" which goes into several different world-building scenarios including the title one. A no-Luna Earth scenario. An Earth where the moon was bigger. Or nearer. An earth where the moon was smaller, or further away, or more than one moon. 

In other words, even if you assume a near parity in size between the worlds, if they both have substantial oceans, wouldn't it be possible for neither to be totally tidal-locked with each other?

One last thing - a familiar image from an old anime. Iscandar and Gamilon, the twin worlds featured so prominently in Star Blazers/Yamato in it's first season all these years ago. There's all kinds of interesting parallels between your idea and a lot of fanfic speculation (mainly done by an old friend of mine Derek Wakefield) about what would have influenced the cultures on those two planets and whether Gamilons and Iscandarians were related. But I'll leave that for another time. 

But the main point of me bringing it up is this - in most of the images of the twin worlds Iscandar and Gamilon, they seem to share a sort of wispy diaphanous connection between them. Almost like a faint bubble nebula around them both. With a definite "column" of lighter space painted between them. Almost as if the atmospheres of both planets were shared between them. Or could that be charged particles in their shared magnetic fields? 

Here's a pic of what I mean (kinda hard to find, really, but my google-fu is good. ^_^)



If that's charged particles, then their shared night sky would be FANTASTIC. Though it would hamper astronomy somewhat. 

I find the idea of a shared atmosphere though more compelling. Though somewhat less likely. There is precedent for a smaller than Earth-sized body to maintain a substantial atmosphere. Saturn's moon Titan has a thick methane atmosphere, though IIRC it's smaller than Mars. How is this possible? Gas Torus effect. Titan does in fact not have enough native gravity to maintain the atmosphere, but the atmosphere that leaks away is still caught in the same orbital track by Saturn and thus Titan is continuously orbiting through the gas torus of it's own atmosphere and picking it back up again. 

Could something similar happen between two near-earth sized worlds? So that their atmospheres co-mingle maybe even to the point of shared biota? 

(One borderline wacky idea I had many years ago that I still find compelling was that of Iscandarians exploring and colonizing Gamilon (and later evolving adaptations that made them Gamilons) not with rockets, but with JETS crossing the void and staying inside that column of air between their worlds. Yes, I know it's pretty preposterous. But I felt at the time that I was working within the sort of "rubber physics" displayed in the show itself. ^_^)

EDIT: Although... I'm thinking that unless all those pics of Gamilon/Iscandar are being shown at such an angle that one larger planet is significantly closer to the "camera" POV than the other, that there's a problem with the basic idea. If we are looking at the two worlds dead-on side by side, than aren't they TOO close to each other? Inside each other's respective Roche limits in other words? Or am I wrong? 

Oh well - "rubber physics" like I said above. None of Matsumoto's works, including Yamato, were ever known for rigorously adhering to physics as we know it. ^_^;

[Kurisu]

We have a set of binary planets - perfectly balanced at each other's lagrange points so there's no tidal forces to rip them apart.  Both worlds are Earth-like, with contenents, large oceans, and planted right in the middle of the sweet spot of a star system. 

Wasn't there a live action movie about this?
I'll try to find it. ...and edit my post accordingly.
EDIT: Ok, I found it, but it's an incomplete trailer.
Journey to the Far Side of The Sun (Doppelganger)
_____
DEATH is Certain. The hour, Uncertain...

[Necratoid]

First, the third option is something made the worlds like that intentionally for some reason (experiment, the planetary spirits are holding that position so some other entity is removed from the game, precursor race's long term anthropological experiment, etc...).  Even if this is religious mythonly  it should still be important, pre-second world colonization we are talking about a biosphere that can be seen with a telescope.  Its real hard to argue against life on other planets when you can actually disprove that by pointing at the nearest celestial body.  Even if its as recent as the stories developing as of the end of the last war, people are going to talk about the other planet itself as if it was an evil God.  Perhaps going as far as declaring the other planet Hell manifest... generally things devolve into seeing conquering the other world as a religious obligation to conquer hell for whatever their cause actually is.
Without tides I'm not sure anyone would actually build coastal cities of note.  River straddling cities sure... but without a tide all the garbage and sewage dumped into the sea will just sit there.  Rivers would end up as symbols of life (and/or the path/cycle there of), movement, and good things... stagnant oceans the opposite.  Actually, if the post armagedon peoples see the sky world as hell then the stagnant oceans would be the the underworld you want to go to.  Burial by floating them down river into the seas.  I realize there will be currents... but without a regular tide the shore line will end up a field of algae and seaweeds.  Add in something big and air breathing feeding in these coasts and no one will want to go in the sea.  Something that is big mostly because of all the food near shore.  Something that attacks boats so they just never decided that it was work exploring the oceans and sea on the water.  Until flight comes around anyway.
This means only one major (or major heavily colonized/populated) land mass on at least first world.  Till flight no one would want to attempt crossing the death field out there... would also mean any rocket style flight or dangerous labs would be on the previously undeveloped other, smaller land masses.  That way you don't screw up the land you live on and don't have tourists.  This also gives you a way that the two planets can actually assault each other.  The fringe labs and installations had enough bunker type installations they were more or less intact post bombardment.  Its just with no incoming resources they are going to take far longer to get to the central land mass or set up harvesting operations.  Besides being outsiders in the fringes of the planet anyway those central landmass morons blew up the worlds.
So we have tech surviving in the worlds in small groups.  give them a few decades to organize and they can set up a ferry service for iron ageish war parties.  Have them do this for both planets (in different ships designs) and demand tribute and you can have a nice little racket going.  Keep it to a few raids a year and maybe get it in the yokels heads that surviving a raid is a manhood/ rite of passage thing... advance a few decades or centuries and iron age gets up to gunpowder age.  By that point the ferrymen get some explitive of a leader, who pushes volume over safety and/or who starts demanding a desirable mate as payment from the war party (at first in loot and then in advance)... or irrational cuts of the haul or something.  Eventually a few shuttles on both planets are downed and the locals make like those Africans in Lord of War and by the time the recovery team get ther its little more than a skeleton.
Cue enterprising nobles paying for this stuff and insert a nice boost to research and tech levels.  Eventually someone makes radios... then radios good enough to taunt the other planet.  Which eventually leads to both sides noting their respective ferrymen had undesirable price increase / spontaneous upswings in equipment failures at the same exact time.  Cue both sides deciding its time to cut out the middle men.  One war pair of wars later and you have your set up as both side attempt to figure out space flight on their own... the hold up may be the controls are so convoluted that 85% of them may only cause random lights to turn on and off and blink and flash... and the wiring is spaghetti logic.
Another reason for this landmass model is that your going to have one hell of a time running an iron age society on a global level if your constantly needing a navy and ocean crossing to communicate.  With one major landmass you can set a nation up that way... remember your insisting that post war and a few hundred years after the fall they are maintaining military against each other and there are only two societies are actually worth uplifting on two planets.  I find it entirely suspect that both world would count it as a good idea to reestablish mutual global governments at the same time anyway... unless the societies are just rigged to function that way.  In which case they may have ended up nuking each other simply as a matter of deciding where the capital should be getting completely out of hand and the scientists not winning the race to build a capital city space station exactly between the two worlds.  Something about actually researching how to make such a things and the implementation process taking longer that drunk (on power or booze), screaming politicians can order buttons to be pressed.
Just the first thing that came to my mind... but the main thing to remember is that if something as odd as two planets in exact tide killing orbit with each other is the basis of things... that will effect everything eventually.

[Black Aeronaut]

You see, this is why I love posting ideas like this here.

Thanks so much, everyone. Let's go ahead and simplify things by making it nicely imperfect. You know, slight differences in size and all.

I also like the idea of the gas torus around a lager planetary body. It would make their development of space flight more interesting, especially if there were smaller planetoids occupying the same orbit.

[Sweno]

Just thought I'd chime in on the 'tides on a tidaly locked body' bit.

You would still get tides, just smaller. The sun would produce enough of a gravity differential to make them somewhere between half and a quarter as big (have had the time to do the math).

And you would still get waves, as those are wind generated.

So we wouldn't get some of the violent surf we get here. But it wouldn't be an alge mat.
-Terry
-----
"so listen up boy, or pornography starring your mother will be the second worst thing to happen to you today"
TF2: Spy

[Necratoid]

I was specifically commenting on a stable orbit place with no real tidal forces... also through in the possibility of sufficiently bored aliens with enough free resources to heavily terraform/move planets to settle a bet.  The point was to set up an example society based on the given parameters.  I find early on that fleshing out the basic outline of the story/culture is more useful than the debate on how the planets effect each other than anything plot wise.
That said you could pull off an algae mat by have the rivers end in a crater bay... and/or have water only cover thirty odd percent of the surface area.  The point is to keep them on a semi-pangaea and have outlying lands to have the ferrymen live on.  The rivers dump organic waste and garbage into the sea and the food source... which causes plants to congregate, then stuff that eats the plants and stuff that eats them.  the plant eaters have guys use the 'eat till I'm too big for anyone not tool user to even consider eating' method.  Making ZOMG ginormous things... they were air breathes just so you can see them from shore.  Basically world building on notes from the marketing department.  You couldn't have kelp beds and a solid mass of algae anyway.  Unless the kelps are low/no light types.
I tend to make large posts (read multi page) that people take a few ideas from.  Math and hardish science is great and all, but its rather limited to the early stages of a story with a generic plot.  You know unless your writing to show off the spiffy new languages you just made up.  With such a generalist plot you need something that will grab attention.  Byplay or interesting cultural set up are two methods of doing... of course that can lead to the average fanfic of your work being better than your work or writing pages of bard 'songs' with a complete lack of music in the middle of a battle.
Don't get too caught up in the Science! of the outline of a story... or you could end up getting so caught up with the detail work of the icing on the cake... and end up with the world's most ant approved table cloth and a lack of actual cake.

[hmelton]

The world Dream Bank:

http://www.worlddreambank.org/P/PLANETS.HTM

Lots of ideas look at the bottom of the page for some of the better discussion or essay links.

howard melton

God bless

[SkyeFire]

Rocheworld, by Robert Forward, is another example:  two small "habital" moons of a Jovian, so close to each other that it was juuust barely possible to fly an aircraft from one to the other with minimal rocket assistance.  

[Sirrocco]

It seems the ending is missing something.  In particular, the most depressing ending feels in some ways like the more likely, because it assumes that the characters are just going to run off of knee-jerk "this is wrong" reflexes, and attempt to bash their heads against the brick wall.  Hrmmm...

- First of all, if there is reasonable levels of freedom of speech, they aren't just going to die because they tried to convince people that maybe we should try not killing each other.  However...

...the uplifting race has almost certainly been tweaking its genome for a while - and the infants they send are likely to be given a few advantages on top of that.  After all, uplifting a race with Problems is Bad, and so not uplifting them is a win, but if you can solve the problems first, and then uplift them, that's a double-win.  The infants, then, are likely to be smarter/faster/stronger/something as well as mildly telepathic - not at superhuman levels, necessarily, but notably so.  If they picked up some intelligence/manipulation (on one or both sides) they're reasonably likely to figure out all of the unpleasant likely ends of doing things in predictable ways, figure out exactly how *they* want the world to work, and play Xanatos (with varying degrees of success).

Also, at some point, you should totally have the bit where each has realized that the specific other person is nifty, but hasn't accepted that their side has anyone worth saving, and each is actively trying to suborn the other.