2020 US election - The fat lady is warming up in the wings

[robkelk]

The political careers of Nicolas Sarkozy and Donald Trump have striking parallels. Do their legal futures?

[DHBirr]

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!  Windrip demanded a recount in Milwaukee, and his campaign paid $3 million for it.  So Wisconsin election officials did a recount – despite obstruction from Trumpite observers.  It increased Biden's margin of victory.

Biden’s votes increased by 257 from 317,270 to 317,527 in the Milwaukee recount that wrapped up Friday, while Trump edged up 125 votes for a total of 134,482, reported the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
...
Observers broke the rules by constantly interrupting vote counters with questions and comments, complained Milwaukee County Clerk George Christenson. According to election officials, a Trump observer objected to every ballot that tabulators pulled from a bag to count simply because they were folded.

How's it feel to shoot yourself in the foot again, Dotard?

[GethN7]

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!  Windrip demanded a recount in Milwaukee, and his campaign paid $3 million for it.  So Wisconsin election officials did a recount – despite obstruction from Trumpite observers.  It increased Biden's margin of victory.

Biden’s votes increased by 257 from 317,270 to 317,527 in the Milwaukee recount that wrapped up Friday, while Trump edged up 125 votes for a total of 134,482, reported the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
...
Observers broke the rules by constantly interrupting vote counters with questions and comments, complained Milwaukee County Clerk George Christenson. According to election officials, a Trump observer objected to every ballot that tabulators pulled from a bag to count simply because they were folded.

How's it feel to shoot yourself in the foot again, Dotard?

If Biden got more votes legit, so be it. If Trump shot himself in the foot and still didn't get what he wanted after a recount, whelp, that's how the cookie crumbles.

Way I see it, if this just settles any questions of honesty for both men in the end so neither can complain later, well and good.

[hazard]

Trump is going to keep complaining no matter what. Not only can he most likely not wrap his head around losing, if he lost he's exposed to a wide spectrum of legal trouble he has been able to keep ahead of on account of being president.

[GethN7]

Trump is going to keep complaining no matter what. Not only can he most likely not wrap his head around losing, if he lost he's exposed to a wide spectrum of legal trouble he has been able to keep ahead of on account of being president.

Honest question here, what has Trump done (besides being an obnoxious asshole some people did not want in office) that warrants criminal action that is any worse than what any other president of any political alignment has done? And why is he only shielded by being President?

Impeachment is nothing, Trump laughed his off because it died on the table and Clinton was actually impeached for perjury and still finished out his term. Buchanan was censured for influence peddling and it went nowhere even after he left office. Jackson was censured for contempt of Congress and spat on it without rebuke.

Nixon is the only president thus far who has committed actions that would have gotten him imprisoned had he not gotten a pardon. In that case, there were clear abuses of power that damaged the state itself both sides could agree on.

I get it, Trump's a jackass, I don't disagree, but most of our presidents have been jackasses. Besides, Obama drone struck people left and right, and Bush Jr started several wars on dubious grounds. What has Trump done that reaches Nixon tier bad to the point you could get everyone to agree he's scum besides being an asshole in in general, which is infuriating but not a crime?

[robkelk]

Trump is going to keep complaining no matter what. Not only can he most likely not wrap his head around losing, if he lost he's exposed to a wide spectrum of legal trouble he has been able to keep ahead of on account of being president.

Honest question here, what has Trump done (besides being an obnoxious asshole some people did not want in office) that warrants criminal action that is any worse than what any other president of any political alignment has done?

Wikipedia has a list.

And why is he only shielded by being President?

Because your Department of Justice refuses to indict a sitting President.

Impeachment is nothing, Trump laughed his off because it died on the table and Clinton was actually impeached for perjury and still finished out his term.

You're showing a bias there. Clinton went exactly as far along the impeachment process as Trump, but you're treating them differently.

Buchanan was censured for influence peddling and it went nowhere even after he left office. Jackson was censured for contempt of Congress and spat on it without rebuke.

Nixon is the only president thus far who has committed actions that would have gotten him imprisoned had he not gotten a pardon. In that case, there were clear abuses of power that damaged the state itself both sides could agree on.

I get it, Trump's a jackass, I don't disagree, but most of our presidents have been jackasses. Besides, Obama drone struck people left and right, and Bush Jr started several wars on dubious grounds. What has Trump done that reaches Nixon tier bad to the point you could get everyone to agree he's scum besides being an asshole in in general, which is infuriating but not a crime?

Well, Obama can get him on libel, since (I assume) you believe what you posted about him there...

People on your right wing keep making those statements about their political foes but rarely if ever provide any evidence when asked. They're very good at the big lie, which is why claims like these must be questioned every time they're made.

[Bob Schroeck]

Trump supporter who gave $2.5m to fight election fraud sues to get his money back

Trump suffers meltdown, calls Twitter a "national security threat", and demands immediate termination of section 230 of the CDA, all because #DiaperDon hashtag trends after Thursday's press briefing

[GethN7]

Trump is going to keep complaining no matter what. Not only can he most likely not wrap his head around losing, if he lost he's exposed to a wide spectrum of legal trouble he has been able to keep ahead of on account of being president.

Honest question here, what has Trump done (besides being an obnoxious asshole some people did not want in office) that warrants criminal action that is any worse than what any other president of any political alignment has done?

Wikipedia has a list.

And why is he only shielded by being President?

Because your Department of Justice refuses to indict a sitting President.

Impeachment is nothing, Trump laughed his off because it died on the table and Clinton was actually impeached for perjury and still finished out his term.

You're showing a bias there. Clinton went exactly as far along the impeachment process as Trump, but you're treating them differently.

Buchanan was censured for influence peddling and it went nowhere even after he left office. Jackson was censured for contempt of Congress and spat on it without rebuke.

Nixon is the only president thus far who has committed actions that would have gotten him imprisoned had he not gotten a pardon. In that case, there were clear abuses of power that damaged the state itself both sides could agree on.

I get it, Trump's a jackass, I don't disagree, but most of our presidents have been jackasses. Besides, Obama drone struck people left and right, and Bush Jr started several wars on dubious grounds. What has Trump done that reaches Nixon tier bad to the point you could get everyone to agree he's scum besides being an asshole in in general, which is infuriating but not a crime?

Well, Obama can get him on libel, since (I assume) you believe what you posted about him there...

People on your right wing keep making those statements about their political foes but rarely if ever provide any evidence when asked. They're very good at the big lie, which is why claims like these must be questioned every time they're made.

Rob, until those lawsuits result in a CONVICTION for a legal offense, Trump is not guilty of squat. When that happens, get back to me.

Also, Obama did drone strike people:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-drone-strikes/

Note, I never said it was illegal for him to do so. So long as those strikes were properly authorized, he committed no legal crimes, though one can argue the moral side all day long if you want.

The point I'm getting at is that if Trump is tossed out of office and actually convicted of a legal offense, he can rightfully be called a criminal. Until then, he legally is not one until then. It's not partisanship to say that, it's innocent until proven guilty, which I hold dear for everyone, even people I may not like. In fact, I hold it especially dear for them, because once they've been convicted of a crime following due process, one can be sure they earned it.

Back to the point, if Trump loses, fine, so be it, but until that's in black and white, it's precipitous to say anything is for sure.

[robkelk]

Rob, until those lawsuits result in a CONVICTION for a legal offense, Trump is not guilty of squat. When that happens, get back to me.

No.

You asked "what has Trump done (besides being an obnoxious asshole some people did not want in office) that warrants criminal action"

I answered that question.

You're refusing to look at the answer.

You did not ask about a conviction.

Put the goalposts back where they were.

[GethN7]

Rob, until those lawsuits result in a CONVICTION for a legal offense, Trump is not guilty of squat. When that happens, get back to me.

No.

You asked "what has Trump done (besides being an obnoxious asshole some people did not want in office) that warrants criminal action"

I answered that question.

You're refusing to look at the answer.

You did not ask about a conviction.

Put the goalposts back where they were.

Fair enough. Point duly noted.

Thing is, it means nothing to me legally, morally, and ethically until he's duly convicted of a legally criminal offense. Once that is true, then he deserves to be called a criminal. Anything prior to that is allegations and charges yet to be proven. I've defended people I've despised before of being innocent of charges that have not been legally proven, and I would do the same for people I like. Anything else is legally wrong, entirely prejudical and utterly immoral.

In about a week or so, assuming he's confirmed to have lost and is frogmarched out of the White House in that case if such needs to be to get him to leave when the time comes, we'll see where those lawsuits, allegations, and charges go. Until then, his guilt or innocence is not our place to judge, it is the domain of the legal profession.

[Labster]

I get the aspect of judge not lest ye be judged, but at some point we need to say that this person is a bad example.

Honest question here, what has Trump done (besides being an obnoxious asshole some people did not want in office) that warrants criminal action that is any worse than what any other president of any political alignment has done?

Ummm.... So this is hard because of history.  We can probably say that anyone President prior to 1891 has done something worse than Trump.  If you're wondering about that date, the Wounded Knee Massacre took place on December 30, 1890.  This was not the end of the Indian Wars, which lasted until 1924, ten years after the Titanic sank, but it was the end of the worst era.  The Dawes Act, for all that it wouldn't pass moral muster now, was at least well-intentioned at the time.  So let's start after that.

Is Trump the most racist president in the modern era (1890-2020)?  Not really.  Wilson was easily more openly racist, in an era where eugenics was gaining popularity.  But he has had policies struck down for being racist, such as the Muslim travel ban.  And Trump says racist things pretty much constantly.

Well, let's talk about incarcerating non-whites who committed no crime.  The winner in this category is Franklin Roosevelt, who sent 120k people to camps for years.  All Trump has done is take a few thousand Mexican children away from their parents, many of whom we cannot reunite with the parent because they were deported and we don't know where they are.  The cages are a little smaller, too.  So maybe this one is a draw?  Definitely not the worst.

How about obstructing investigations into misconduct?  I'd say that Trump and Nixon share this title.  Although, at least the conduct he was trying to hide wasn't that he had given away secrets to the Russians.  Nixon at least had some standards, unlike the people he complained about like the goddamn bla--- moving on...

Okay, let's go to the big one.  Who has killed more Americans?  About 400k American soldiers lost their lives in WWII, most of which we can assign to Roosevelt, again.  Only 265k Americans have died from the coronavirus.  Sure, they were mostly civilians, but you have to agree, 265000 < 400000.  And, as Trump said, it's a war against The Invisible Enemy, which is why he recommended most Americans head into battle with no gear to protect themselves, because who needs that?

We can keep going on and on.  Trump has a terrible economy, but Hoover had a worse one -- and McKinley crucified us on a cross of gold.  Trump grew the budget deficit by trillions, but FDR grew them proportionally more.  Trump was slow to get a vaccine in a pandemic, but Wilson never got an influenza vaccine during his term.  Sure, it was bad when Trump said he'd grab women by the pussy on his secret tape, but compare to all of the racial slurs coming out of Nixon on his tapes and Trump seems like a choir boy.

You know, Trump is so much not the worst at anything, I don't know why people dislike him.

[hazard]

Rob, until those lawsuits result in a CONVICTION for a legal offense, Trump is not guilty of squat. When that happens, get back to me.

Ehm, yes he is. Trump's guilty of the crimes he has committed. Whether or not he's prosecuted is irrelevant. Whether or not he's convicted is irrelevant. The trial process exists to figure out if there's enough evidence to state beyond reasonable doubt that the suspect was in fact the party responsible and to determine the consequences of that determination.

As a society you try to avoid the court of public opinion because that court is absolutely terrible at figuring out whether or not someone actually did what they've been accused of.

Also, Obama did drone strike people:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-drone-strikes/

Note, I never said it was illegal for him to do so. So long as those strikes were properly authorized, he committed no legal crimes, though one can argue the moral side all day long if you want.

I'm pretty sure that extra judicially killing people is all sorts of illegal regardless of where they are, and only a declared war suspends some of those restrictions. And I do mean some.

The point I'm getting at is that if Trump is tossed out of office and actually convicted of a legal offense, he can rightfully be called a criminal. Until then, he legally is not one until then. It's not partisanship to say that, it's innocent until proven guilty, which I hold dear for everyone, even people I may not like. In fact, I hold it especially dear for them, because once they've been convicted of a crime following due process, one can be sure they earned it.

Back to the point, if Trump loses, fine, so be it, but until that's in black and white, it's precipitous to say anything is for sure.

Ehm, Trump's lost the popular vote by a land slide, so he's lost on that count. He's also lost the presumptive electoral delegation vote by what he described a landslide margin in 2016, although we've yet to see what the electors are going to vote. It's not premature at all to say he's lost the election, given that to claim victory more than 30 of the electors from Biden's delegation would have to defect to Trump's side. Not impossible, admittedly, but exceedingly unlikely.

Trump can rightfully be called a criminal. The public has seen the way Trump's acted and more than a few of his actions are, or at least would have been were he not president, criminal. That doesn't mean the government will call him a criminal until they indict him, because governments are held to a different standard than the general public is. However, he cannot be called a convict until he's convicted of a crime.

[robkelk]

Is Trump the most racist president in the modern era (1890-2020)?  Not really.  Wilson was easily more openly racist, in an era where eugenics was gaining popularity.  But he has had policies struck down for being racist, such as the Muslim travel ban.  And Trump says racist things pretty much constantly.

One needs to be careful about such statements. Just because a politician says something in order to get elected doesn't mean said politician believes the statement or plans to act on it after being elected. Describing a politician's words does not necessarily describe the politician's true beliefs.

Oh... but Trump made a big deal about not being a politician, didn't he?

We can keep going on and on.  Trump has a terrible economy, but Hoover had a worse one -- and McKinley crucified us on a cross of gold.  Trump grew the budget deficit by trillions, but FDR grew them proportionally more.  Trump was slow to get a vaccine in a pandemic, but Wilson never got an influenza vaccine during his term.

This is a person whose policies and guidance lead to the bankruptcy of not one but two casinos that he owned in Atlantic City. It takes talent to bankrupt a casino - a business that's designed to bring in money hand-over-fist; he did it twice.

And some people wonder why his policies lead to the deficit increase that happened. To those people, I say "Judging by his track record, what did you expect would happen?"

[Bob Schroeck]

FCC Chairman Ajit Pai will bail on Inauguration Day

[Bob Schroeck]

Oh, and Trump's meltdown of the day: flipping out because 60 Minutes interviewed former cybersecurity head Christopher Krebs and didn't offer Trump the chance to spew lies offer comment.

[Jinx999]

He's also be crowing about the Arizona Republicans (or some of them) having a meeting about fraud, either ignorant of or ignoring the certification of the results happening at the same time only a few miles away.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world...64130.html

[Bob Schroeck]

either ignorant of or ignoring the certification

Why settle for one when you can have both?

[Jinx999]

https://loweringthebar.net/2020/11/trump...r-bad.html

A general comment on the level of success that Trump's litigation is having (being compared with the birther cases is not a good sign). It's not getting into the nitty gritty, but it's fairly clear that it's theatre, not a genuine legal case. The question is whether it's theatre for one, theatre for however many republican voters who've been hoodwinked, or, fair enough, both.

[Jinx999]

So . . . the attorney general Willian Barr, has publicly stated that the FBI has not found any widespread voter fraud that could overturn the election and, soon afterwards, was called to the White House.

[robkelk]

Which might mean he gets 45-days' pay in lieu of notice if he's fired... unless he's a good enough lawyer to fight a wrongful-dismissal suit.

Or am I being cynical again?

[hazard]

No, that's pretty standard in the current administration.

[Bob Schroeck]

Barr actually removed his lips from Trump's ass long enough to contradict him? The man must have an alternate source of life support...

[robkelk]

It gets better.

AP: Attorney General William Barr has given extra protection to the prosecutor he appointed to investigate the origins of the Trump-Russia probe, giving him the authority of a special counsel to complete his work without being easily fired.

EDIT: Hmmmmm... he did this back in October, but we're just learning about it now.

[hazard]

Which is probably why Barr hasn't been fired yet.

[DHBirr]

Another pro-Windrip lawsuit filed by Sydney Powell includes an affidavit alleging lots of voter fraud in Edison County, Michigan.  Problem:  There is no "Edison County" – not in Michigan, not anywhere else in the United States of America ... at least not in the U.S.A. that we inhabit.  In some other dimension where lizard-men really are secretly ruling, who can say?  Hisssss.

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