Shinji-Nature

[Murmur the Fallen]

so I just rewatched the End of Evangelion movie (and let me tell you, a lot of the trauma goes out listening to the english commentary track. And to hear the eva expert plug alan moore's promethea is just too cool) and it just hit me:
the third impact was about achieving NIRVANA! Where all individuality is erased and we become one with brahma or buddha or, in this case, a giant white chick with perky breasts.
which, you know, is how i'd like to achieve nirvana.
ANYWAY
Since this step takes place after the AMG one, presumably OUR HERO DOUG would have learned a bit more about the nature of God, Gods, etc, etc, and thus would have some more insight into the actual processes going on in the Eva world. Where most people would see a giant spider with big eyes crying acid, Doug would see . . . a giant spider with big eyes crying acid WITH SIGNIFICANT ONTOLOGICAL MEANING!
So, again presumably, Doug's goal is not only martial training but also the sort of psychic (for wont of a better term) training that would enable Shini et al. to withstand or perhaps even thwart the movie ending.
[This gets into my idea that the movie ended as happily as it could but that's a different topic that i addressed earlier]
'Course, this raises some questions such as how Doug interacts with the Chilren, specifically Rei. His mage-sight would most likely allow him to know that she's a bit more than she seems, but does that mean that he would know that she's the harbinger of revelation (apocalypse)? And if so, then what?
umm...
-murmur
The reason why the subject line is the way it is is because of the fact that only shinji doesn't succumb to the whole rei-as-nirvana thing. So the question is: Does Shinji have Buddha Nature?

[Murmur the Fallen]

huh.
-murmur
huh

[Star Ranger4]

must be a blech from the recovery process...."I was an Otaku before those kids came along and changed the meaning of the word."
-- HM "Howling Mad" Wilson to more than one team-mate.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[Bob Schroeck]

That it is. I'll probably delete those empty messages one of these days...

-- Bob
---------
It's a "magical" land. I think "magical" is ancient Greek for "pain in the butt". -- Bun-Bun, Sluggy Freelance, 11/9/03

[Murmur the Fallen]

anyway, my point was, if i remember correctly from the ongoing discussion, was that Seele's and even Gendo's plan was to forcibly achieve global human unification (i think i remember someone, possibly me probably not me, saying it's closer to the jain or hindu version of pure bliss whatever) [or, to make it more christian gnostic, joining with the godhead and bypassing nasty ol' demiurge) using rei/lilith/kaworu/eva-01/apparently a giant pendulum clock in the prime minister's office/my sweet aunt fannie as the catalyst for third impact.
so: it seems that the point anno/gainax/my sweet aunt fannie were trying to make was that we've all got the hedgehog's dillemma, not just shinji--intimacy hurts, seperation hurts, nineties college pop was absolutely spot on. the only cure was to immanitize the eschaton.
urm.
now bringing this all back to our hero doug: Is this a goal that doug SHOULD thwart? if so why? if not, why not?
I suppose this is the inevitable collision between east/west sensibilities (though it's putting it pretty simply and, ironically, in a manichean context) about individualism and the basic nature of the world (ie: not perfect but okay vs. like the toilet in trainspotting only worse and with no drugs to be found).
-murmur

[Bob Schroeck]

Okay, let me say this: Doug does not, and will not, have any idea what Gendo/SEELE/any other mover-behind-the-scenes is up to. All he does is teach three (later four) kids how to be teammates, and warriors, and friends. He has a little help that throws a major monkey wrench into Gendo's plans, but even then he is ignorant of what is "actually" going on.
Virtually all the major changes in the timeline happen because of changes he instigates in the other characters. One way to describe it is that he helps the walking wounded heal to a point where they can help each other, and that makes a vast difference.

-- Bob
---------
It's a "magical" land. I think "magical" is ancient Greek for "pain in the butt". -- Bun-Bun, Sluggy Freelance, 11/9/03

[Evil Midnight Lurker]

Which could be a really really bad one, in the short run.
Because the more emotionally whole the Pilots are, the LESS EFFECTIVE they will be with the Evas.
The whole point of the Absolute Terror Field, after all, is that it's a projection of their trauma and desire to be alone. It's all very Jungian, or something like that.
--Sam
"Well that guy's nekkid."

[Valles]

---

The whole point of the Absolute Terror Field, after all, is that it's a projection of their trauma and desire to be alone. It's all very Jungian, or something like that.

---

Nothing to do with you, EML, but fuck -that- symbolism with a chainsaw.
Ja, -n
(Not that flavor of pessimist.)
===========

===============================================
"V, did you do something foolish?"
"Yes, and it was glorious."

[WengFook]

---

Nothing to do with you, EML, but fuck -that- symbolism with a chainsaw.

---

Yes! What Valles said. -_- yeek. _____________________________
HK-47: "Love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticule, and together, achieving a singular purpose against statistically long odds"
_________________________________
Take Your Candle, Go Light Your World.

[Murmur the Fallen]

yeah, i remember that--the whole "Doug isn't around to the end and doesn't know what's really going on."
Hmm. I suppose this goes to the structural nature of this story.
Now, you can make this thing --and make it work-- as a three or two chapter work. In fact, it might be better this way, as a shorter work would "meld" into the established continuity well.
That is to say, it takes place a little over less than a year in their world and twenty-six episodes plus a movie or two in ours.
Given that, a shorter work may be more attractive.
As the stated goal is "making the pilots happy functional people who are happy together and happy fighting," and making a point of doug NOT knowing what's going on and NOT knowing what anyone's agenda is--
which is a move i applaud, cause who needs more mary-jane-ism?
--there's a distinct lack of big, visceral conflict here.
Well, i'm sure that Mr. Bob would be able to figure it out.
HOWEVER, the point I'm making is that Eva was trying to make big philosophical ideas and conflicts a huge part of its story. By having a different ending than the canon one, aren't we just bypassing the essential dialectical (big word i just learned) nature of Eva?
Because we all know that Doug can, does, and often will bring out the big authoritarian voice to just ramrod his views onto people. And since he's being crafted into a mentor position to the eva trinity, would we see the viewpoint for the "other" side or even the idea of an other side personified in someone that isn't horribly repellent? someone that isn't gendo or seele that's trying to say that, 'all everyone knows is pain and isolation and longing and the only way to fix that is to become jello-brand gelatin'
-murmur
hmm. wonder if that made sense.

[Bob Schroeck]

---

--there's a distinct lack of big, visceral conflict here.

---

It would seem that way, wouldn't it? I think I've got a handle on it, though.

---

HOWEVER, the point I'm making is that Eva was trying to make big philosophical ideas and conflicts a huge part of its story. By having a different ending than the canon one, aren't we just bypassing the essential dialectical (big word i just learned) nature of Eva?

---

It depends on the ending. I think what I have in mind will work because I've delved into many of the same sources as Anno did, only without being suicidally depressed at the time, and have found some really intriguing alternatives that are still consistent with those sources. In fact, in some cases, more consistent.

---

Because we all know that Doug can, does, and often will bring out the big authoritarian voice to just ramrod his views onto people. And since he's being crafted into a mentor position to the eva trinity, would we see the viewpoint for the "other" side or even the idea of an other side personified in someone that isn't horribly repellent? someone that isn't gendo or seele that's trying to say that, 'all everyone knows is pain and isolation and longing and the only way to fix that is to become jello-brand gelatin'

---

Doug won't be acting as a counter-viewpoint to this at all, because he knows nothing about it. I'll say this much -- as of my current plans for the story, Third Impact still happens -- and just as in the original, Shinji is handed the choice of what to do with it.
It's the choice he makes -- and the path that takes him to that choice -- that the story is about. All Doug ever does is put him on that path, and that while being almost entirely ignorant of what's going on. This will be a rather different DW story because, while he narrates about half the material as always, Doug is not the main character. He's a supporting character. The Children are the main characters here.

-- Bob
---------
It's a "magical" land. I think "magical" is ancient Greek for "pain in the butt". -- Bun-Bun, Sluggy Freelance, 11/9/03

[Murmur the Fallen]

--there's a distinct lack of big, visceral conflict here.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It would seem that way, wouldn't it? I think I've got a handle on it, though.
[peachy keen. glad to be wrong.]
Quote:
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HOWEVER, the point I'm making is that Eva was trying to make big philosophical ideas and conflicts a huge part of its story. By having a different ending than the canon one, aren't we just bypassing the essential dialectical (big word i just learned) nature of Eva?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It depends on the ending. I think what I have in mind will work because I've delved into many of the same sources as Anno did, only without being suicidally depressed at the time, and have found some really intriguing alternatives that are still consistent with those sources. In fact, in some cases, more consistent.
[...
there was an islamic scholar, whose name i've plum forgotten, that asserted that you can find whatever values you wished to find in the koran. putting it as bald-faced as possible, that seems to mean that the koran and by extension all holy books are basically big rorschach tests. so to say that something is "more consistent" with the source material is . . . an arguable claim. very arguable. as in, there've been wars fought over that claim. which isn't to say that there's going to be a war here. . . but . . . yeah . . .]
Quote:
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Because we all know that Doug can, does, and often will bring out the big authoritarian voice to just ramrod his views onto people. And since he's being crafted into a mentor position to the eva trinity, would we see the viewpoint for the "other" side or even the idea of an other side personified in someone that isn't horribly repellent? someone that isn't gendo or seele that's trying to say that, 'all everyone knows is pain and isolation and longing and the only way to fix that is to become jello-brand gelatin'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug won't be acting as a counter-viewpoint to this at all, because he knows nothing about it. I'll say this much -- as of my current plans for the story, Third Impact still happens -- and just as in the original, Shinji is handed the choice of what to do with it.
[whether or not the character "consciously" acts as the voice of opposition, a character may thematically be the voice of the counter-viewpoint. if we take gendo as the voice of one viewpoint, unless doug agrees with most everything he does, he is a supporting voice of gendo's viewpoint . . . one could argue. course, there are viewpoints that may not neccessarily conflict but are not the same as that one viewpoint. urm.]
It's the choice he makes -- and the path that takes him to that choice -- that the story is about. All Doug ever does is put him on that path, and that while being almost entirely ignorant of what's going on. This will be a rather different DW story because, while he narrates about half the material as always, Doug is not the main character. He's a supporting character. The Children are the main characters here.
-- Bob
[boswell to shinji's johnson? nick carraway to shinji's jay gatsby?]
-murmur

[Berk]

Of course, the idea of rejoining the godhead, from the Jungian perspective, is a Bad Thing... It's a total identification, and sublimation of the self, to the unconscious.
It's not that all are unified.
It's that the space which demarkates you as different from that person over there evaporates and the hills and valleys are bulldozed flat. As for the image of 'badass, confident Shinji' I would direct you, kind viewer, to Super Robot Wars (was it Alpha 2?).. where I believe the pilot of Mazinger Z personally smacks Shinji around a little and teaches him how to man up and be the pilot of a badass giant robot.
- Grumpy Uncle Gearhead

[Bob Schroeck]

Confident Shinji? Yes, eventually. Badass Shinji? Not on your life.

-- Bob
---------
It's a "magical" land. I think "magical" is ancient Greek for "pain in the butt". -- Bun-Bun, Sluggy Freelance, 11/9/03

[Berk]

It was rather amusing to see Shinji just flip out in that game at one point and literally, in the course of one cut scene, cycle through EVERY available weapon in Unit 01's arsenal.. but yes, it was definitely uncharacteristic.
- Grumpy Uncle Gearhead

[WengFook]

---

It was rather amusing to see Shinji just flip out in that game at one point and literally, in the course of one cut scene, cycle through EVERY available weapon in Unit 01's arsenal.. but yes, it was definitely uncharacteristic.

---

We think otherwise Berk.. Unit-1 has always been the beserker _____________________________
HK-47: "Love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticule, and together, achieving a singular purpose against statistically long odds"
_________________________________
Take Your Candle, Go Light Your World.

[Berk]

It wasn't so much that he went berserk.
It's that he stood back and literally hosed the target with EVERYTHING. Giant machine gun. Several beam rifles. A bazooka. And then I seem to recall him whipping out the knife and stabbing the poor sod a couple of times.
It wasn't so much Shinji berserked. He just wanted the target very, very dead.
(SRW is infamous for over the top super attacks.. such as SRW-J's Bonta-kun Gang Beating and the notorious charge by Zengar Zombolt's mecha and an associated horse mecha imitating Odin's Zentetsuken attack from FF
- Grumpy Uncle Gearhead

[WengFook]

---

It wasn't so much that he went berserk.
It's that he stood back and literally hosed the target with EVERYTHING. Giant machine gun. Several beam rifles. A bazooka. And then I seem to recall him whipping out the knife and stabbing the poor sod a couple of times.
It wasn't so much Shinji berserked. He just wanted the target very, very dead.

---

O_o and this is in super robot wars? gee I must be missing a lot not playing this game _____________________________
HK-47: "Love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticule, and together, achieving a singular purpose against statistically long odds"
_________________________________
Take Your Candle, Go Light Your World.

[Berk]

Super Robot Wars is basically what happens when you get a bunch of mecha fanboys together with coyright deals from basically everyone and turn them loose.
Mainstays of non-Original Generation titles include Mazinger Z, Mazenkaiser, Great Mazinger, Combattler V, Zambot 3 and Daitarn 3 and more.. Sometimes you get appearances from such Utterly Broken mecha shows as Hades Project Zeorymer and Space Runaway Ideon (thankfully, so far, not both at ONCE).
Original Genreation titles use only Banpresto-designed mecha and characters.. though often you get a sly little nod to classic designs, such as the Huckebein's shocking resemblance to a Gundam.. other than the fact that it totes around a gravity weapon larger than it is, depending on the model iteration.
- Grumpy Uncle Gearhead

[Murmur the Fallen]

Going further on the themes inherent in each character, and the dialectical response to that, I suppose Doug would have to stand in opposition to somebody.
The obvious choice here is Gendo and or Seele.
By a "confident Shinji" I can safely say a "self" confident Shinji is meant.
Let's get back to that later.
A major theme in Eva is the idea of identity. I am myself but I also exist as a picture inside your mind which may not correspond exactly with the picture of myself in my mind. And you exist in my mind as a picture which may not correspond, etc, etc.
Further, Seele and even the Angels put forth the position that it is individual identity that is the source of all human suffering, the hedgehog's dillemma as was.
So right there is an otological conflict between Seele/Angel's position, which has an Eastern/Gnostic approach and Doug's (and this is a presumption) individualist position (western/orthodox?) (heidegger and kant?).
Then there's the question of Gendo, who is an easy target for opposition due to his actions. Yet it can be said that he can be made to represent a sort of twisted reflection of Doug. His sole mission is to be reunited with his lost love, something that resonates deeply with Doug's character.
Now, there was a mention about whether or not Doug would be AWARE of the hidden agendas and what his actions would result in. But it doesn't matter if the character himself is aware of all that; we the readers are or will be made aware of it and just by the juxtaposition of these viewpoints could the themes and the dialectical nature of the work be made obvious.
-murmur

[classicdrogn]

Now, see, maybe it's just the bad taste of a letdown ending in the last five minutes getting me in a bad nmood, but this is a perfect example of why I hated Eva, right here - this kind of overanalasys is of the human condition. The world is, people are, no one solution is right, and no one can even be exactly sure when they have the right solution for them. 'Sall I have to say.
- CDThat which does not kill us... has made its last mistake.
SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Murmur the Fallen]

should i, like the latest onion demands, just shut my cakehole? will writing the word dialectics automatically mean my expulsion from non shut cake holiness?
(theonion.com has an article on a guy that won't shut up in philosophy 101. i think that's me, now).
on the other hand...DIALECTICS, man! c'mon! in classical western teaching, that's right up there with grammar! and possibly needlepoint.
and besides, if people can find philosophical meaning in star trek (like, i don't know, rational humanist atheism), they can find it in eva (authenticity vs. nirvana?)
-murmur
dasein, baby!

[classicdrogn]

No, no. Never shut up just because I say you're full of bull. I'm full of bull too.
- CDThat which does not kill us... has made its last mistake.
SERVO: Loook *deeeeply* into my eyes... Tell me, what do you see?
CROW: (hypnotized) A twisted man who wants to inflict his pain upon others.
" It's crazy to try to spell out all the mega-nooks and hyper-crannies of a Borg contrivance." - Doug Drexler
--
"Anko, what you do in your free time is your own choice. Use it wisely. And if you do not use it wisely, make sure you thoroughly enjoy whatever unwise thing you are doing." - HymnOfRagnorok as Orochimaru at SpaceBattles
woot Med. Eng., verb, 1st & 3rd pers. prsnt. sg. know, knows

[Black Aeronaut]

Hmmm... All this time since I watched Eva and I still learn new and interesting things about it... Let's see what my character, Ezekiel Darkwood, would
have to say about it...

"So, essentially you're all old men that somehow became powerful and lucky enough to cause Second Impact. Now you want to cause a Third and thereby
eleminate all sense of identity from every living soul on the planet? Just because you all led fucked up lives doesn't mean that you get to impose this on
everyone else. Tragedy occurs in this world because people like you allow it. You have become that which you hate."

"But by doing so we can end this suffering once and for all!"

"I'm sorry, but as messed up as it sounds, I like what a crazed android once said to me: 'Human suffering is such a unique priveledge.' I can
feel suffering and therefore I know that I exist. I can also feel love and know that I exist. However, if I can no longer feel these things then I shall not
even know that I exist.

"You intend to reduce humanity into an unthinking, unfeeling, and unknowing mass.

"You intend to return everyone to primordial soup. Fuck you all."