Quote:While you made a good argument you missed the point
Your car analogy, as I have previously stated is deeply flawed I elucidated this in my last post in regards to tools and reinforcement mechanisms. While Occams razor must be kept sharp, simple analogies will not always work for complex constructions. I understand your desire for a simple analogy, but having an accurate one is far better. Would your cousin be alive if there were no cars? Perhaps perhaps not, while cars take lives, they also serve as a convenient receptacle in which to conceive them lacking that convenience he might not have even been.
entirely. The car analogy is technically truthful barring
any outside information, HOWEVER, it is not the real truth
on account it does not consider the full issue. Your
implied argument that 'IF these people were not religious,
they would not have had a guy perform an 'exorcism' on
their son' is the same type of analogy and just as flawed.
Quote:Another flawed statement since if they did beleive in demons
Well you can start with direct observation; one that has been made already. Exorcism. Not a lot of atheists doing exorcisms. Why? Simply put there is no proof or even evidence for the existence of demons; therefore no need to cast them out.
they would not be athiests.
Quote:Okay now for the philosophy queston of the day. If an athiest believes in a personal god, is he or she still an athiest? If he isn't it could invalidate the entire survey.
As for studies - A survey of the National Academy of Science shows 72% atheists, 21% agnostic, and 7% believing in a personal god.
Quote:Who is using them to support their position? You are. It is
How about Franzblaus study of religiosity and honesty (negative correlation)? As to religion and IQ, check out Burnham Beckwiths article The effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith. The studies are out there you are just too lazy to go look them up.
your responsibility to supply the verification of your
evidence. Not mine. Also i will point out that in such diversity
of Relgious and secular beleifs what the subjects were tested
on is paramount. If an creationist is given a test designed for
an evolutionist they will naturally score lower. That does
not, however, mean that a creationsit is not as smart.
Quote:Yes they are otherwise they would all think and believe the
Unlike the religious, atheists are not subject to unchanging beliefs
same. Which is not the case pointed out by your example
earlier, provided that is correct of course.
Quote:This is the major flaw in your logic. Always has been. Disbelief should NEVER be the default on any quest for knowledge or
Disbelief in all things temporal and especially spiritual should be the default position.
enlightenment. Skeptism should for the simple reason it allows
for error or insufficent evidence. Debelief does not.
Quote:As interpeted by you. Since your view on religion is that
Well I did read a number of articles on the story, including the depositions taken by the law enforcement officials concerning the attack, the timeline, etc. I also looked at the home where the attack took place; and did several other searches concerning the parties involved. All available evidence points to Fundamentalism driven wish thinking, rather than desperation driven actions; I expect this to be further buttressed when laughing boy goes to trial shortly. The information is there, you just have to go look for it.
it is a total fraud it doesn't say much for to get an honest
and fair opinion. And as far as Gopher boy goes, I suspect he
will say whatever he has to to keep out of jail and his
testimony should be taken as such...
Quote:Here is where we differ. If these parents lived in an isolated
The three protagonists in this sad tale were personally responsible for their actions but their actions absolutely required the presence of fundamentalist religion in order to reach fruition. If they had not been religious they would not have attempted the exorcism. Would they have tried something else equally destructive? Unlikely.
situation with little to no outside influences then you might
have a pressing argument but they lived in society as far as I
know and that means taking common sense precautions. Did
they ask if he was an ordained and sanctioned priest? Did they
try to check him out with the church? Did they petition the
church to investigate the possibility that their son might be
possessed? As far as I know, no they did not. hence why I say
these parents were stupid and desperate. if you are going to
do something that could potentially break the law and cause
harm to another human being, especially your own child, you'd
better make sure it is what you have to do, it is needed, and
that it done properly. I do not believe these two idiots
met that criteria in the slightest..
Quote:
Wow, theres wrong, theres wrong, and then there is you. Observation and prediction are great tools they are used all the time; by scientists, psychologists, law enforcement officials and even cold reading charlatans. Given even small clues you can readily predict what people will do. You dont need to be Mentok and perhaps you should not be it is not easy being green. When a prisoner is placed on suicide watch there is a reason previous observations of homo sapiens animal in the situation have demonstrated a strong correlation between the situation and suicide attempts. There is a whole list of demonstrated correlations when dealing with premeditated murder. There is guessing, there is hoping, but of much greater importance and use there is empirical evidence. To deny such is to show willful ignorance, and Fidhooki, your ignorance is showing.
Well I chalk that one up to lack of sleep and edited it out
after a few hours of sleep. Still it does bring up an interesting
point I want to bring up. Just because the stats say they will do something doesn't meant they will do it. Also when does it
cross the line to the 'self fulliflling prophecy' mentality?
Also one more thing . I skipped over the old arguments
on account that we have had them out on other theads
and they were adding nothing here.