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Bob Schroeck Wrote:And by the time I see this, it's all shaken out. Geth, I'm sorry to see you take that step. I have some doubts that it'll stop the nutter(s), but we'll see. And never forget that you will be welcome back.
Thank you, Bob.
I cannot say when this will be over, but I do eventually plan to come back, but for now, I'm staying away.
I'm a bureacrat, so that means I could give myself my admin flag at any time, but I have no intention of doing so, and whenever I do come back, I will ask the community for it's restoration. If I violate this pledge, please have Miraheze staff discipline me as you all see fit.
In the meantime, I will still try to contribute on occasion, but it shall be as a regular editor, and I expect to be treated like nothing more than a regular editor if I in any way violate ATT rules.
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This was really me invoking Rule #10, " What the Hell, Hero?". GethN7, you passed. Lulzkiller, your rules lawyering leaves me unimpressed. I had these same kinds of discussions with Lawrence-Prairies over on Miraheze -- yes, you might be allowed to do such things under the rules or the laws, but that doesn't mean that it's not morally wrong.
PROTIP: Don't argue about how you didn't technically break the rules with your friends. You're in House Hufflepuff here, and you're acting like a Slytherin. And you're strengthening the argument that maybe you're not one of us.
I really don't want people to leave. I honestly just want people to stop doing these things, and act like normal human beings. Ideally I'd like us all to live heroically and stylishly, but I'll settle for "doesn't pick fights with random strangers."
I don't have a problem with anyone being an editor on Encyclopædia Dramatica. I do have a problem with people engaging in the worst of their behavior -- doxxing, repeatedly contacting individuals under observation, doing things that could be considered harassment. This is an instance of Kick the Dog, or maybe Kick them While They Are Down. Most of the people being harassed have some kind of mental illness. Since some of also have mental illnesses, maybe we can show a little more empathy?
We're a Content Creation Wiki, and "Creation" is probably the biggest part of that. Creative hobbies should be encouraged, destructive habits should be discouraged. (Deconstructive habits: actually creative.) I do feel like staff should be setting an example in this regard.
I Wrote:I'm wondering if it's appropriate for sanctions to be given to staff for off-wiki behavior Not one reply on this topic.
robkelk Wrote:Did I do a bad thing when I suggested rule #9, "We do not hide who we are"? Do we have a reason to not identify ourselves as ATT admins when discussing tropes at sites other than ATT? Personally I'm kind of indifferent on this rule, as I'm not sure it matters that much, its unenforcible, and it's what I was doing already.
Bob Schroeck Wrote:And by the time I see this, it's all shaken out. Not yet, I'm afraid.
-- ∇×V
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If any request is made, please don't use Harry Potter references, having to see endless ones used to describe current political systems doesn't endear me to them.
Comparing me to LP is bordering on insulting at best, especially considering the behaviour and actions that LP has engaged in.
I was merely pointing out how the claims that Rule #3 was infringed was incorrect in concise language. If you felt I was obfuscating I am more than happy to see how more concise I can make it.
You're telling me in effect to "stop" with people who have threatened assault, castration, murder, public humiliation, arrest, imprisonment, etc against myself. Most of this preceded myself joining ATT.
I as far as I have aware have not brought about destruction to ATT, and was very kindly unanimously been given admin because the consensus was that I brought value.
This inquisition solves nothing.
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vorticity Wrote:...
I Wrote:I'm wondering if it's appropriate for sanctions to be given to staff for off-wiki behavior Not one reply on this topic. I thought my question about Rule #9 was a reply to that topic.
vorticity Wrote:robkelk Wrote:Did I do a bad thing when I suggested rule #9, "We do not hide who we are"? Do we have a reason to not identify ourselves as ATT admins when discussing tropes at sites other than ATT? Personally I'm kind of indifferent on this rule, as I'm not sure it matters that much, its unenforcible, and it's what I was doing already. It's only unenforceable if it isn't appropriate for sanctions to be given to staff for off-wiki behavior.
vorticity Wrote:Bob Schroeck Wrote:And by the time I see this, it's all shaken out. Not yet, I'm afraid. I've been in such situations before. In most cases, goalposts are moved and harassment does not stop until the harassers get everything that they really want - and every time a concession is made, they realize they can get something that they didn't previously want.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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vorticity Wrote:...
PROTIP: Don't argue about how you didn't technically break the rules with your friends. ... LulzKiller Wrote:...
This inquisition solves nothing. Okay, folks - this is coming close to being taken personally, and that is a Bad Thing. Time to step away from the whole mess for a weekend and get emotions back under control, before somebody does something that will be regretted later.
I think Bob and I can look after ATT for a couple of days on our own. Go have fun off-wiki for a bit, and we'll see you on Monday, okay?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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robkelk Wrote:I thought my question about Rule #9 was a reply to that topic. Oh hey, it actually is on rereading. I just needed to put on my legal hat for a minute.
Lulzkiller Wrote:You're telling me in effect to "stop" with people who have threatened
assault, castration, murder, public humiliation, arrest, imprisonment,
etc against myself. Most of this preceded myself joining ATT. Is it somehow an unreasonable request?
Rob, I'm actually trying to hug Lulzkiller, but because of who I am it always comes off like I'm an insensitive jerk.
-- ∇×V
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We have got to figure out some way to get the mod team together face-to-face for a talk and a beverage-of-choice...
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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YKTTW somebody comes in to a shop and asks for something completely unexpected? What's it called?
I have a Real Life example...
--
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"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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robkelk Wrote:We have got to figure out some way to get the mod team together face-to-face for a talk and a beverage-of-choice... whoever is picking up the bar tab will get to understand my appreciation of JD & Coke.
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IIRC where everyone is, the best central location for a mod team ftf is probably somewhere in the American Midwest...
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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Bob Schroeck Wrote:IIRC where everyone is, the best central location for a mod team ftf is probably somewhere in the American Midwest... you all get to crowdfund my flight and accommodation.
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Everyone would need it crowdfunded, I think.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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Bob Schroeck Wrote:Everyone would need it crowdfunded, I think.
If we all had late-model BlackBerry phones, we could do a videoconference chat. But who has a BlackBerry any more? (looks at my own BlackBerry Passport)
http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Topic:Tmlnj0nq6epig0wi
And I've already undone two of DocColress' IP blocks because they look to me like TVTropes-style control-freakery.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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I saw that... I've generally ignored his "complete monster" stuff, but now I'm wondering if I should review his last dozen or two edits.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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Quote: I actually didn't read it before I made the edit to delete it
...
Also, am I misremembering things, or does Complete Monster attract a lot more problems than average?
-Morgan.
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Morganite Wrote:Quote:I actually didn't read it before I made the edit to delete it
...
Also, am I misremembering things, or does Complete Monster attract a lot more problems than average?
-Morgan. Not speaking with a mod hat on anymore (well, still mod the Wikia fork, but I have to since I'm the only regular admin there), but I'll give Doc a partial pass here.
The CM trope attracts a TON of crap thanks to people from the Wikia based Villains wiki. There, people who were essentially banned from TV Tropes for having gladiator battles over that trope continue the battle there, and when they see ATT, they considered it another place to continue the battle.
I signed Doc on awhile back because they were sane and willing to make sure our rules were adhered to, and to be even more fair, a lot of the idiots Doc has had to straighten out on the Wikia fork (I checked, they were legit troublemakers) do try to roll their arrogance uphill and try it on ours, so if Doc blocked someone on Miraheze, they likely made an ass of themselves on Wikia first.
Without making any suggestions anyone need take with authority, my suggestions are to tell Doc to calm the hell down, and if they must delete stuff and block people, they provide evidence in the block logs why, like "troublemaker from the Wikia fork", so this sort of thing doesn't happen again. I do symnpathize with Doc's anger, you would not believe how (and I'm an autistic myself) autistically stubborn some of the more foolish types Doc has had to lay down the law are on, but laying off the anger and leaving a better paper trail why they have done things would be a good idea, so I say give some official censure and make them do just that for now, but since I have no mod power on Miraheze, you guys do what you deem best for the community.
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Yeah. For some reason Complete Monster attracts a ton of shitposting despite the fact that it's a truly cut-and-dried trope with a very clear definition. I'm guessing it's because they think that some evil character is "cool", or does really terrible shit. But I've always seen it as a "bad writing" trope -- characters that are only capable of doing great badness. In my mind it's not even a YMMV trope, but there's always some fangirl out there trying to read the tea leaves of whether he's "really evil", and meh.
On the little upset earlier, I'd like to say that I don't really trust any of the information I was given earlier off-wiki and off-forum, so I guess Geth and Lulzkiller are off the hook for now. I've seen what constitutes "evidence" for these folks, and I'm not impressed. I'm also not impressed with some of our admins' hobbies either, but I'm hoping maturity will come with age.
Now let's talk about something entirely different: http://allthetropes.org/wiki/Romanticismhttp://allthetropes.org/wiki/Realismhttp://allthetropes.org/wiki/Modernismhttp://allthetropes.org/wiki/Post_Modernism
Modernism is actually a redlink, and the Realism page might as well be. But these are major, major concepts in the arts as a whole, and how they mirror the societies they live in. And it's moments like these where I get really frustrated with troping. It's like an index of trees, where no one knows what all of the trees put together is called. We do have them helpfully grouped as "tall trees" and "short trees", but we're still working on understanding how trees are arranged. I've mentioned some of our lack of coverage of entire historical genres before.
The Romanticism Versus Enlightenment page has a lists of romantic and enlightenment tropes (and someone other than me mentioning a Hegelian synthesis, proving that only people who already know this stuff edit these pages ??). But I also feel a little weird about this page in general, because romanticism has a pretty good definition, while the Enlightenment thought is a mix of modernism, classicism, rationalism, and a bunch of sciences being invented. Also we don't have an Enlightenment page either, naturally. But suffice to say the "Enlightenment" list includes a lot of obviously modernist tropes like Beleaguered Bureaucrat, Raygun Gothic, and Science Hero. So I think it's time to split off categories there. Category ost Modern Tropes has, naturally, only one category member (Thanks Bob!). As for the fourth trope category, does Truth in Television count for Realist Tropes?
-- ∇×V
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Quote: Categoryost Modern Tropes has, naturally, only one category member (Thanks Bob!).
You're welcome, and my apologies -- I meant to go back and populate that category after creating it, and forgot completely about it. I've started adding a few tropes since you've brought it back to my attention. Quote:As for the fourth trope category, does Truth in Television count for Realist Tropes?
I would think so -- Realism does a "See also" link to it via a redirect, "Art Imitates Life", suggesting it is at least relevant.
As for Enlightenment, I'm sure we can rewrite or repurpose the Wikipedia page for it to suit our focus, transplanting material from "Romanticism Versus Enlightenment" as needed.
-- Bob
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Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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Uh, polite request here, I would like another admin to at least make my edits autopatrolled/confirmed as a regular user, as a convenience so everyone knows my edits aren't that of a newbie.
I would do it, but I fully intend to not attempt to touch any admin tools until I formally make a request they be restored, which is still not at this time.
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Done.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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I've decided to come in with my thoughts on the drama regarding CM and Doc.
http://allthetropes.org/w/index.php?ti ... leyywbgyoi
I should make it clear that I'm trying to find a middle ground in regards of how to move forward.
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Fair enough. I may have been a bit harsh with my comment about English; it's hard for me to determine right now as I'm a bit off balance due to my mother's impending funeral.
-- Bob
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Then the horns kicked in...
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I'm not too worried about his grasp of English - an idiosyncratic spelling pattern helps identify people's contributions in Talk pages, and we can copy-edit Main pages.
I am worried that he's admitted "pretty much" to deleting and re-creating pages in order to remove any trace of contributions he doesn't agree with.
Months ago, I set the CM pages so that you need to be logged in to edit them. With that in place, does DocColress need admin rights to ride herd over those pages?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012
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I'm starting to think not. I am very strongly opposed to stalinizing user contributions because of my TVT experiences, and the idea that someone on the staff is doing so with the appearance that we know and approve upsets me more than I can say.
-- Bob
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Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.
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I have no mod power, so I'm not going to stand by Doc if they get voted to be stripped of their mod power.
Even as a regular user I feel Doc should play as a team member or learn what it's like to be demoted to regular user at least, or even being made permanently persona non grata if ATT staff deems it appropriate.
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