Management - Level policy question

[Kokuten]

I've recently begun a foray into the 'Farm Side', as has vyperpunk, one of our probationary members. I've been thinking about this, and while
_I_ have no moral qualms about farming as a method of generating inf/xp (or prestige - Mag's about 50/50 on prestige from TF vs. prestige from farm), I can
appreciate that some people may, or may want nothing to do with farming.

So, as a 'best practices alternative', I created another SG, on my main farming toon. My thought on this was to coalition with The Legendary, as to
gain access to the base and it's wonderful workbench, whilst not flying the Legendary flag in the 'farm community' on Virtue.

My part of this is all-up and ready - so here I am. Is this a Good Idea? Should we go ahead with this? Should I not mention this ever again?

To summarize: I propose a coalition between my 'farming' SG (one member, heh), and The Legendary, to provide for farming capability without sullying
The Legendary name. Also asking for a policy statement regarding farming from 'management' (That's you, Bob, sorry to drop this on a Monday)Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Logan Darklighter]

Well if you want to do it that way, I've got no problems with it.

What I've had problems with in terms of "farming" in the past has been the sweatshop farmers from various places that don't play the game to
have fun in themselves but to make real world cash at the expense of the game world's economy. Like the "chinese" farmers (there's GOT to be
a better name for them, because it's not just the Chinese doing this) in WoW and CoH who farm the game and then spam us constantly in the broadcast and
email.

But that's not what you're doing. You're farming in order to just get the rare recipes and generate influence for the betterment of your own
characters. Which I see as a legitimate decision to make. I've joined you from time to time on these ventures and had fun. Especially since we just work it
like a regular team does. No macros. No bots. Nobody AFKs at the entrance waiting for the influence and xp to roll in. Everybody on your farming teams is
supposed to work for it and do their part. And with Ouroboros in the game now, we don't even really have to worry too much about missing story arcs in the
game by outleveling them. So it just comes down to personal preference. Which I'm cool with.

So, the only thing I'd like to know is - what's the name of your supergroup going to be? Because the only qualm I have is this: When I hit the base
portal, I'd like not to have an obvious reference to "farm" in the name of your SG when I see it on the list of coalition bases that I can access
at the base portal. It's a style issue only to me at that point.

[Kokuten]

the current SG name is 'Farmer's Local 401', with tree icon, crop related MOTD, etc. Kinda blatant, to be honest.

If that ends up being the only concern or sticky point, I'll recreate - I'm not attached to the name in the slightest.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[Sofaspud]

I'm not management for The Legendary, but my 2c worth:

What LD said.

Seriously. I've run with you on these things, what, 3 nights running now? You're not farming, you're playing it efficiently. I don't know
how to make the distinction very clear, but that's what it feels like. No sleaze, no cheapening of the game, just "let's move it along,
folks".

You got my vote. Heh.

--sofaspud
--"Listening to your kid is the audio equivalent of a Salvador Dali painting, Spud." --OpMegs

[Bob Schroeck]

Logan's got the right of it. And as Lora'Lai is as much Management for the Legendary as Evangelia is, consider that official.
-- Bob
---------
Then the horns kicked in...
...and my shoes began to squeak.

[Morganite]

I continue to be somewhat bewildered by the attitude towards "farming" in CoH.

So someone's farming - ie, fighting mobs for the purpose of gaining resources rather than levelling. If they aren't botting, exploiting, RMTing,
MPKing, harassing, or otherwise violating the ToS... what's the big *issue*?

(To a certain extent, I wouldn't even be so bothered by RMT if the RMTers in FFXI didn't have a long history of botting, exploiting, MPKing, and
harassing...)

In FFXI, pretty much everyone has to farm sometime, unless they have rich friends (who don't feel the need to ever be paid back) or buy their money with RL
cash. People playing CoH should be glad they don't have to do that if they don't want to.

-Morgan.

[Logan Darklighter]

Well, to be blunt. There's a bit of an "snob" attitude behind it. Which - to be fair, I happen to agree with at least in part. Though my
objections have been mitigated recently with the addition of certain in-game features. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

COH/COV, you have to admit, appeals to a slice of the gaming playerbase who don't normally like MMOs. It's an MMO that breaks a LOT of the
"conventional wisdom" of MMOs. First - it's a superhero game in a market where it seems like 99% is high fantasy. Then, originally it didn't
even have any "loot" or even stats!

For most MMOs, the endgame is where the real action takes place. Even in WoW, which is VERY solo friendly for leveling and for casual players compared to other
Fantasy MMOs out there, the end game raids and PVP is really the ultimate goal. And to get there you have to have the appropriate gear. You'll completely
re-gear in fact, between 10-15 times on your way to the top at minimum IMHO.

In COH/COV though, there is no real "endgame" to speak of. True, there's more to do now for level 50s than there used to be (PVP, Ouroboros, Task
Forces, Strike Forces). But in COX, the aphorism "the journey is the destination" is very apt. Before Ouroboros was introduced, you did NOT want to
race to level your character because you'd outlevel content and leave yourself with nothing to do. You'd miss out on story arcs too.

So we've got a really different culture here, as a result.

The "issue" about farming is that people assume that you're AFK botting your way to easy influence like some people used to do back in the day. I
don't get this much anymore, but it used to be that if you were level 42 or above, you'd constantly get "tells" from people begging you to
powerlevel them. To be a "bridge" to a level 50 tank doing herding of an entire map. This was seen as noobish and stupid behavior because it was
MASSIVELY missing the whole point of the game!

Additionally, now we have a different problem. The "Chinese Farmer" problem that popped up as soon as this game acquired an economy. Sweatshop gamers
with macros and bots running characters that are only there to get rare items to sell at ridiculous jacked up prices on the market or massive amounts of
influence to trade for real money.

So there's definitely a negative stigma attached to "farmers".

What Kokuten is doing however, as I said above, is not in the realm of the negative aspects.

Oh - and the whole "outleveling the content" issue is effectively dead now that we have Ouroboros and flashback missions. If there's a story arc
you want a character to go through, even though they might've missed it, you can go back to it.

So, for "old school" City of Heroes players, there's a bit of elitism. "We don't do things here like other MMOs do and we
_shouldn't_ be doing things like them either!"

And while I share that sentiment to a degree, I like to also think of myself as a practical sort. Having an economy and real numbers available like in other
MMOs is fine with me because of the way it's been implemented. That stuff is there, but it's NOT NECESSARY. You can choose to ignore it utterly and it
won't necessarily impact your game. Particularly if you stick to PVE.

But you can maybe see why people cringe at the idea and don't want to be associated with it, yes?

[Morganite]

But you can maybe see why people cringe at the idea and don't want to be associated with it, yes?

I guess the part that offends me is that people are using the *wrong words* to describe things.

So powerlevelling and RMT are bad. But those aren't farming, they're powerlevelling and RMT.

Now, I'll admit that FFXI's lingo is a bit odd in this regard, because RMTers are usually called "gilfarmers", even though non-RMT farming is
also generally for gil in the end. But it seems incredibly stupid that in the CoH community lingo there's no distinction between ToS-violating farming and
non-ToS-violating farming.

It's making me very tempted to find some way to convince myself that /Kin makes sense for a reyvateil emulation and make a bio that talks about farming...

(Hey, they have farms in Sol Ciel. It could work.)

-Morgan.

[Foxboy]

You could also take a punnish approach to what you're doing: "Better Life through Pharmacology" Especially appropriate for any "Pharmin'
*insert Celebrity Name here*"
''We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat
them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.''

-- James Nicoll

[Kokuten]

Cindy suggested a garden-based one, which works for me, and is a lot more 'subtle'.

Subtle is always good, I just have to contract out for it ; )

So the next time a management sort is online, this will be done with, and the Garden Party will be allied and available.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979

[His Lovely Wife]

Cindy was watching Guns of the Navarone with Shayne and had a flashback to A Bridge too Far when you mentioned the farming thing. And then totally mangled the
name. I said Garden Market didn't I? I think it the whole operation in A Bridge Too Far was was Market Garden. Meh whatever.

Shayne! You're a bad influence on me! Keep it up! :-)

The Garden Party sounds nifty. And almost political. They can hang out with the Green party and the Natural Law Party over on Parliament Hill and throw timbits
at the Leader of the Oposition.

OK, I'll shut up now! -C-

[jpub]

As I'm one of the most vehement on the anti-farming, allow me to say: Have at it, Kotuken.

The farming you do, which involves *active participation* from all members, and is focused on having fun whilst farming as much as it is about actually
accumulating inf/prestige/recipes, is what it *should* be. If everyone did that, I'd have no issues with it.

Heck, when my characters hit that range I'll probably happily join you, especially when I hit the tier-1 walls I usually run into.

[Morganite]

Well, I gave in to the seductive combination of obsession and snark, and created Shia Arisa Plenilune, a fire/kinetics controller on Virtue.

Mind you, I don't know when or how often I'll play her... but she's now the character of mine with the largest number of references and in-jokes
between her name, costume, and (planned) bio, which is pretty seductive on it's own...

-Morgan.

[Kokuten]

Heh. I'll be online tonight, zap me a tell and I'll get ya into the Garden Market.Wire Geek - Burning the weak and trampling the dead since 1979