I need to buy a computer - what am I looking for?

[robkelk]

There's only so much longer I can keep the computer I'm typing this onto running. I understand there have been a few advances since I got this machine - for one thing, they've gone beyond Windows 2000...

I have no idea how many cores are in a decent processor nowadays, or how fast they run.

Much like Miyuki in Lucky Star, I play Solitaire and Minesweeper... and I don't play very much Minesweeper. However, I am into 3D-modeling, and I understand there's a third-party add-on for Daz Studio that makes heavy use of the Nvidia chipset for rendering, so that's probably where I want to go with the graphics.

I'm not about to send my banking information over wi-fi, no matter how slim the chance is that it'd be intercepted, so a wired connection to my router is essential.

I run my software locally, not on the cloud from a Software-as-a-Service provider. Text-based Internet access (including Usenet and FTP) is a must. Being able to turn off all that Flash crap in the browser is a plus. (Chrome is right out - Google already knows too much about me as it is.)

While I'd prefer something faster than SATA for my hard drives, I don't want to break the bank (I need to save up for a big party next year) and I don't know whether anybody makes Fibre Channel drives for the desktop anyway, so this is a low-priority desire.

I'm not willing to pay the premium (or climb the learning curve) for a Mac.

What am I looking for?
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[CattyNebulart]

Quad or six core, probably intel if you are buying now, as AMD's new architecture is still sub-par, though there have been some notable improvements.

Sata III drives, at least one SSD for speed and probably a raid array of slower drives for capacity. How fast how big how reliable, how cheap? There is a 4-way tradeoff here.

At least 16 gigs of ram possibly 32. The fastest your motherboard can support, and pay some attention to CAS timings, usually an extra 5$ will improve them notably. This makes a 64 bit OS a must. give a general budget (500$, 1000$, 2000$) and I can get you more details.

Do you care about noise? A quiet machine will be more expensive, but I consider it worthwhile now but I didn't under my tighter budgets as a student...

Interesting reading, but a bit dated; http://arstechnica.com/ga...2012/04/ars-bargain-box/
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[Bluemage]

As luck would have it, I just built a 3D rendering server for the company, and have been doing some load-testing.  I also build desktops.  From what I've seen:
1.  Get an i7- the fastest one you can.  Renders tend to be CPU-heavy, and CattyNebulart is right- AMD can't compare with Intel at the high end of the curve.  The i7 3770K is modern, fast, and should do as nicely as anything else under $1000.
2.  RAM isn't THAT big a deal yet.  Rhino renders with Flamingo have been solidly in the 2.7-3.5GB range at work.  The biggest CAD file I've ever seen there (on Solidworks; we also use AutoCAD, but performance on that has been less demanding) barely breaks 8GB.  You could survive using 8GB, but 16 is a good idea.   Were I future-proofing, I'd leave myself room to expand to 32GB, but I don't see it being necessary for several years.
3.  NVIDIA is a good choice, and I can personally attest to the power and quality of the 600-series.  Still, I've not heard of a good CUDA solution for 3D work yet, so focus more on good RAM and great CPU performance.
4.  Splurge on the mobo.  Full stop.  A good Intel chipset will give you faster/more/(more channels for) RAM, PCIe 3.0 (future-proofing again), and all sorts of other goodies.  Thunderbolt, especially- a 10Gbit/sec hard drive connection would do LOVELY THINGS for rendering performance.  Any mobo worth its salt will have gigabit Ethernet, so wired connection is no problem.  Wireless is an extra- wired is standard.
5.  Buy nothing slower than 7200 RPM, drive-wise, and I agree about SATA III.  An SSD might be handy as a boot/program drive, but remember that the lifespan of an SSD is not just related to the amount of write cycles you do on it, but shackled to that metric with bonds of neutronium.  Running multi-GB files into and out of it regularly will wear them out surprisingly fast... and you WILL be doing lots of file transfers.  With an SSD, you get to pick between low cost, high speed, and (by HDD standards) moderate storage.
6.  As for noise, a good case will do a lot for that.  Mine is a full tower, with six 120mm fans- it's not quite whisper-quiet at idle, but close.  Maybe 1.2 whispers.  Thing is, the multiple big fans make it as loud as a room tower fan on medium when it hits load, and that's not too bad.
Questions are appreciated, and so are civil arguments.  There are lots of ways to do a machine right- this is just what I've seen at work/done myself.

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[CattyNebulart]

I disagree on trying to future-proof by leaving RAM slots open, unless its only for a few months of proofing. DDR-4 is coming, and while it's not there yet In a year or two DDR-3 is going to be obsolete. Also bigger RAM sticks tend to be both more expensive and slower than multiple smaller ones and by the very nature of having less surface area tend to dissipate less heat. Cost and performance indicate you should fill all your slots.

Interesting not about RAM vs CPU bound, when I was last working with 3d stuff it was much more ram bound than CPU, but that is the tradeoffs you make.

I heavily recommend going for a dual (or tripple) monitor setup, the additional display space is very nice even if most games can't seem to use it properly. Don't try to save money on skimping on the peripherals since they are the part of the computer you will be interacting with most directly, and a slightly better mouse and keyboard can do wonders for how comfortable it is to work with.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[Star Ranger4]

http://drunkardswalkforum...Request-n-1-#reply-92048

is what I am using now. Handles blender quite well, doesnt slow down till I start doing really huge stuff.
Hear that thunder rolling till it seems to split the sky?
That's every ship in Grayson's Navy taking up the cry-
NO QUARTER!!!
-- "No Quarter", by Echo's Children

[robkelk]

Thanks for all the help so far, everyone.

To answer a few of the questions: Immediate purchase and use, budget roughly $1000 Canadian, I can live with some noise but the box will be located in a small room with my desk and chair, and I don't have room on the physical desktop for two monitors.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bluemage]

Well.  Sorry for some of what I've recommended, then- I was speccing an ideal render box more than anything.
For something a bit more down-to-earth, a speedy i5 or a Sandy Bridge i7 would be somewhat better value for money right now, and 8GB will probably do you.  As for what sort of 8GB?  Several points on RAM:
1.  I wasn't really talking about leaving 2-3 slots open long-term, CN.  You're totally right about the benefits of having more sticks over less, and any good system takes advantage of that.  Still, sometimes the spec and the wallet don't exactly line up, and getting a system up and running with 1x8GB saves a little money.  Might be the difference between the right CPU/mobo and the immediately affordable one- and you can always add more RAM later.
2.  I'd advise doing one of two things about DDR4.  Either give it a miss for now, or build a no-frills box (i3-i5, 4-8GB, no real graphics, basic mobo) to last you 2-2.5 years, 'cause that's when it'll be worth buying.  Figure it starts production late 2012, and will be available early- to mid-2013.  Never buy a new RAM type when it hits the market- they get RIDICULOUSLY expensive.  I remember DDR3 was $400-$600 a stick when it came out- hence waiting another year for it.  If you did go DDR4, you'd need a compatible mobo, which would work on the same (if not a slower) timeframe and cost mechanic.  Maybe for your next PC, but definitely not this one.
3.  With all that in mind, I'd say a good i7 or top-end i5, decent motherboard, and 2x4GB RAM to start, with an eye to adding another 8GB if you need it.  Season with storage/graphics/~600W PSU to taste, and serve.

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[robkelk]

I'd advise doing one of two things about DDR4. Either give it a miss for now, or build a no-frills box (i3-i5, 4-8GB, no real graphics, basic mobo) to last you 2-2.5 years, 'cause that's when it'll be worth buying.

"Give it a miss" sounds good for this project. (Consider that I'm still using a box running Win2K - I don't change machines every couple of years.)

Oh, yes - I already have a pretty good monitor, so don't budget for that.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[CattyNebulart]

2.  I'd advise doing one of two things about DDR4.  Either give it a miss for now,

That is the only real option as the spec is technically not yet final (even though some are already selling DDR-4 like RAM, don't trust it). I'll take a look at newegg for what I'd reccomend.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[CattyNebulart]

My initial list of suggestions, probably a bit on the expensive side but I am in a hurry. Anyway I need to travel for a bit so I will just leave these here for people to comment on.

Motherboard, I have good experience with Biostar, far better than Asus, and this looks like a good option. An LGA2011 slot is a must and if you are going to have this computer for a long time a lot of USB 3.0 slots are nice. If in 2-years or so you want to upgrade swap out the CPU, it will likely do more than increasing RAM.
CPU I was tempted to go for the 6-core version but that would break the budget.
RAM Decent speed for the cost, I decided not to go with overclocking the motherboard for faster RAM.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[Black Aeronaut]

You know, I hate Intel on the basic premise that their idea of solving a problem is to throw money at it.

You all know my case in point - how they tried to drive AMD out of business by bullying PC manufacturers into exclusively offering Intel chips in their machines. (And also part of why AMD has such a loyal customer base because, you know, people generally don't like folks like that to have their money, no matter how nice their product is.)

Just sayin', you know.

[robkelk]

Well, if the current AMD chips worked as well as (or better than) the current Intel chips, that would be worth following... but (according to Catty) they don't.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[Bluemage]

By quite a noticeable margin, too.  Check out the testing on HardOCP- they really do a good job producing quantifiable results.
I was just going to replace my last mobo when it failed, but then I saw some of the performance graphs, and was all like "So WHY is my year-old Phenom six-core the lowest-scoring chip on their test list?  And why are all the better ones Intel?"
The Phenom IIs were a good series, but the first-gen i-series was just better.  Then Sandy Bridge made it EVEN BETTER.  Now Ivy Bridge is looking to be a bit more of the same- and the FX-series AMD chips are barely better than the Phenoms on some tests, and worse on others.  Dunno how it slipped past QA, but AMD really screwed the pooch (pardon my French) this generation.

---

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Atom Bomb of Courteous Debate. Get yours.

I've been writing a bit.

[CattyNebulart]

One of the big problems for AMD is that they have re-jiggered their architecture to be machine optimised, rather than spend a lot of money and effort to optimise chips by engineers. There are some advantages to that approach, mostly that it cuts the cost for chip development dramatically and designing new variants becomes a lot cheaper. But for the same amount of silicon Intel chips are just better.

Add to that Intel's foundry technology is practically a generation ahead of AMD, (and they got into this position at least partially through anti-competitive practices), however that doesn't change the facts that Intel's chips just have an advantage in production methodology, and it will be some time before AMD can hit back. Longer term we need AMD because an Intel monopoly is bad, and if you had asked two years ago I would have recomended AMD because at your price-point they where about even with Intel and their hardware lent itself to cheaper upgrades as their CPU socket is more stable and they keep pains to keep it backwards compatible as long as possible. But right now I can't do that in good conscience until AMD comes up with a improved architecture.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[Black Aeronaut]

Even so, I wouldn't give my money to them. I'd rather give it to AMD in hopes that they'll come out with something that levels the playing field (again) sometime in the near-future.

[Dartz]

I've read some reports, that for certain tasks, AMD's can beat similar priced Intel chips. Mostly in the budget gaming area. I'm trying to find where they are, but I know I read them. For everything else, they were inferior. Perhaps it's because the ATI graphics chips included on the dies are better than the Intel HD-series?

Personally, I just ordered a new laptop and am feeling quite smug. (The screen on this one's circling the plughole of the bathtub of failure, and my internship requires one to work). I'd saved up a wad of cash for just such an eventuality.

Nvidia GPUs for linux can be a problem if you want to run Linux, especially with the Optimus not being supported. It's only a laptop thing, but the GPU driver's about the only thing that ever caused my linux install to crash. The Nivida drivers are horrid. Although Bumblebee can help. That said, running mplayer through VDPAU really sharpens things up.... Swings and roundabouts I guess.
________________________________
--m(^0^)m-- Wot, no sig?

[Mark Skarr]

Rob, if you're going to use Reality/Lux you don't want to go with AMD. A three-year-old dual-core Intel out-performes a top-of-the-line 8-core AMD chip. Neither AMD nor Pret-a-3d have any idea why (and they're beating their head against it right now). For rendering with Reality you'll want as many cores as you can throw at it. I have three, 8-core i7s that I can render with, which gives me a good deal of turn-around (1.5k samples/pixel in about an hour for a low-object scene). On the other hand, 8 gigs of ram is sufficient, but you'll need more than that for Daz, if you want to do high-object scenes.

If you're just using Daz 4.0 for rendering a quad-core i3 should be sufficient (my old dual-core gaming laptop can Daz-render with advanced surface shaders in about five minutes).

[CattyNebulart]

My initial list of suggestions, probably a bit on the expensive side but I am in a hurry. Anyway I need to travel for a bit so I will just leave these here for people to comment on.

Motherboard, I have good experience with Biostar, far better than Asus, and this looks like a good option. An LGA2011 slot is a must and if you are going to have this computer for a long time a lot of USB 3.0 slots are nice. If in 2-years or so you want to upgrade swap out the CPU, it will likely do more than increasing RAM.
CPU I was tempted to go for the 6-core version but that would break the budget.
RAM Decent speed for the cost, I decided not to go with overclocking the motherboard for faster RAM.

Ok continuing this;

One of these would be really nice, but likely budget busting, therefore I think you would be better of with 4 of these in a RAID-5 array for speed and some fault tolerance, but if you are using windows I'm not sure how well their RAID-5 system works. 3TB is a lot of space and one hard-drive failing will not cause data-loss (though if one fails you want to backup and replace ASAP since the other drives are likely to fail soon).

Since your stated goal is mostly 3d editing you would probably be better of with a professional graphics card optimised towards that kind of workload but since its a smaller market they can get really expensive. Someone with more experience on the current state of 3d software could tell you more but this seems like a fairly cheap but good professional 3d card, this is unfortunately a little outside my area of expertise. For a normal desktop card I'd take a long look at this, any 3d gaming (or even just a compositing dektop) would be better of with the later card.

That leaves case and powersupply, I recommend this case for some noise reduction and temperature control. This is a good power supply but a bit pricey, should make up for it in reliability though. I'd also throw in a UPS and a upgraded CPU fan to reduce noise and keep the chip cooler, but the socket type is new so not all fans are compatible.

Total cost is closer to 1500$ US, than 1000$ Canadian, but it is at least a starting point. Does somebody want to chip in? I'll admit I did at least half this exercise to see what I would buy if I wanted to replace my computer right now.

I assume you also want windows, so buy a 64-bit windows 7 licence, probably professional.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

[robkelk]

Good thing I dragged my feet about ordering components - yesterday's hailstorm resulted in some car damage. So we'll do this again next April, when I next expect to have enough spare cash to get a good system...

Thanks for the help anyway, all.
--
Rob Kelk
"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose
them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of
the same sovereign, servants of the same law."

- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012

[CattyNebulart]

ouch my condolences.
E: "Did they... did they just endorse the combination of the JSDF and US Army by showing them as two lesbian lolicons moving in together and holding hands and talking about how 'intimate' they were?"
B: "Have you forgotten so soon? They're phasing out Don't Ask, Don't Tell."