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Treason Season??
Treason Season??
#1
So, the first charges are being filed, and Manafort's in the firing line.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1030/916241-manafort/

Conspiracy Against the United States
Acting as an unregistered foreign agent.

Is that like, Treason or Espionage?

Naturally, the Oompa Troompa has already weighed in

"Sorry, but this is years ago, before Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign. But why aren't Crooked Hillary & the Dems the focus?????"

Anyway, countdown to Presidential Pardon....

10....

9...

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
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RE: Treason Season??
#2
It's got elements of both.

The charges are definitely a grouping of "we know we have this one" and "we'll just see if it'll stick" (given the level, much more of the former). But, relative to what they're investigating, it's technically all low-hanging fruit. Plus, they should be able to pressure them into testifying in exchange for leniency.
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
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RE: Treason Season??
#3
(10-30-2017, 09:57 AM)Dartz Wrote: Anyway, countdown to Presidential Pardon....

That would be the worst mistake possible. Because now Mueller can put Manafort in the chair and keep asking questions that would otherwise run into the 5th Amendment's right not to self incriminate. Because he can't self incriminate any longer because he has that presidential pardon.

At a guess though? This is espionage what they hit him with first, and when the case's scope has been completely viewed by the prosecution and he's been insufficiently helpful they may add treason.
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RE: Treason Season??
#4
OK, just FYI, treason is the only crime actually defined in the constitution:
Article 3, Section 3 Wrote:Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

I have a hard time believing that any of Manafort's conduct counts as adhering to Enemies.  Unless you count the election manipulation as an Act of War, and I'm really really unsure about cyberattacks being counted that way being a good idea at all.  But espionage?  Quite possibly.  What they're going after him on is how they got the Mafia: tax evasion and money laundering.  At a glance, the charges look very solid, unless you actually believe that Manafort spent $600k on suits from the same shop.  I guess he is a snappy dresser.

The bombshell today though, was George Papanopolous, who like the Spanish Inquisition, no one saw coming.  He plead guilty to lying to the FBI, about collaboration with Russia during the campaign, a few weeks ago.  Where the White House leaks like a green onion, Mueller's investigation is just beginning with the surprises.

Trump's Tenctonese attorney, Ty Cobb, claims that Trump is fully cooperating with the investigation, but from the literally dozens of sources in the White House claiming he's seething with anger at the news, it's a little hard to believe.
--∇×v⃑
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RE: Treason Season??
#5
In his usual inimitable style, Trump is now claiming he has no idea who George Papanopolous is, despite personally introducing him to the press -- on camera -- as part of his campaign's foreign policy team.
-- Bob

I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh, Clark Kent, Mary Sue, DJ Croft, Skysaber.  I have been 
called a hundred names and will be called a thousand more before the sun grows dim and cold....

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RE: Treason Season??
#6
Forgetting who people are is a sign of Alzheimer's, isn't it?
--
Rob Kelk

"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012


"Dont let anyone think for you; most people can barely think for themselves."
-
Rare Earth, "The Giants You Can't See from the Ground"
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RE: Treason Season??
#7
Wouldn't Alzheimer be grounds for using the 25th Amendment?
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RE: Treason Season??
#8
One would assume that Section 4 of the Twenty-fifth Amendment applies, although that section has never been used.

(It might even apply if he's simply uttering bald-face lies. Apparently, that almost happened in 1987, when it was claimed that Reagan was "inattentive" and "inept".)



EDIT: Oh, and just in case anybody doesn't think that Papadopoulos is the the big news in this, here's an analysis from the outside looking in.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/trump-manaf...-1.4379118
--
Rob Kelk

"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012


"Dont let anyone think for you; most people can barely think for themselves."
-
Rare Earth, "The Giants You Can't See from the Ground"
Reply
RE: Treason Season??
#9
Well, the clock ticks, and Trump changes his story. He now acknowledges having heard of Papanopolous, but says he was a gofer and coffee boy. Again, despite the video.
-- Bob

I have been Roland, Beowulf, Achilles, Gilgamesh, Clark Kent, Mary Sue, DJ Croft, Skysaber.  I have been 
called a hundred names and will be called a thousand more before the sun grows dim and cold....

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RE: Treason Season??
#10
The problem is that Trump always changes his story. It's like he's incapable of not doing that.
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RE: Treason Season??
#11
(11-01-2017, 08:50 AM)hazard Wrote: The problem is that Trump always changes his story. It's like he's incapable of not doing that.

That's another sign of Alzheimer's, isn't it?
--
Rob Kelk

"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012


"Dont let anyone think for you; most people can barely think for themselves."
-
Rare Earth, "The Giants You Can't See from the Ground"
Reply
RE: Treason Season??
#12
I'll just leave these here.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukraine-...-1.4382033
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/technolo...-1.4381768
--
Rob Kelk

"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012


"Dont let anyone think for you; most people can barely think for themselves."
-
Rare Earth, "The Giants You Can't See from the Ground"
Reply
RE: Treason Season??
#13
Seriously? They are no even trying to hide it anymore: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/14/world...w-kgb.html
If someone tells you that a thing you do causes harm, maybe take a second to think about that rather than jumping right into defending your right to keep doing the thing?

Particularly if the harm discussed includes contributing to a rise in hate crimes or other oppression?

—Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg
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RE: Treason Season??
#14
(11-15-2017, 11:06 AM)SilverFang01 Wrote: Seriously? They are no even trying to hide it anymore: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/14/world...w-kgb.html

Which means the KGB now has the capability of compiling a list of every person who visits the embassies.
--
Rob Kelk

"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012


"Dont let anyone think for you; most people can barely think for themselves."
-
Rare Earth, "The Giants You Can't See from the Ground"
Reply
RE: Treason Season??
#15
The KGB could compile visitor lists forever, it's just now they get you to sign-in in their log book.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
Being told to be "open minded" about something is usually a code for "you're not going to like this, but I want to subject you to it anyway". Conversely, being told that you are "closed-minded" is generally a means of asserting that "I don't like the fact that you're proving me wrong, so I will pretend that your failure to agree with my argument is a philosophical deficiency". - RationalWiki
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RE: Treason Season??
#16
(11-15-2017, 11:40 AM)robkelk Wrote:
(11-15-2017, 11:06 AM)SilverFang01 Wrote: Seriously? They are no even trying to hide it anymore: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/14/world...w-kgb.html

Which means the KGB now has the capability of compiling a list of every person who visits the embassies.

They didn't before?
... Okay, I skimmed the article. This is much worse than I thought it was. Even if that company only does the outer wall security the options for KGB agents to spy directly on US embassy staff is mind boggling.
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RE: Treason Season??
#17
Responding to a 1 December 2017 Washington Post article by Ruth Marcus about the Flynn indictment (and possible ratting out of Trump), reader nan_lynn wrote:
Quote:Deck the hall with Flynn’s indictment. 
     (Fa la la la la, la la la la.)
Who’ll be next? Oh, such excitement! 
     (Fa la la la la, la la la la.)
Mueller’s rooting out the treason 
     (Fa la la, la la la, la la la.)
Is our gift this Christmas season. 
     (Fa la la la la, la la la la!)

*****
“We’ve had our differences, but he’s seen the light … and I made sure he moved toward it, instead of coming back.”
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RE: Treason Season??
#18
(11-15-2017, 12:06 PM)hazard Wrote:
(11-15-2017, 11:40 AM)robkelk Wrote:
(11-15-2017, 11:06 AM)SilverFang01 Wrote: Seriously? They are no even trying to hide it anymore: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/14/world...w-kgb.html

Which means the KGB now has the capability of compiling a list of every person who visits the embassies.

They didn't before?
... Okay, I skimmed the article. This is much worse than I thought it was. Even if that company only does the outer wall security the options for KGB agents to spy directly on US embassy staff is mind boggling.

Yeah - there's a a difference between "watching who goes in and maybe getting some names wrong because of wide-brimmed hats and long coats" and "reading the sign-in book".
--
Rob Kelk

"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012


"Dont let anyone think for you; most people can barely think for themselves."
-
Rare Earth, "The Giants You Can't See from the Ground"
Reply
RE: Treason Season??
#19
I don't have any love for the N.R.A, but I think this is low even for them.
Operative Offered Trump Campaign ‘Kremlin Connection’ Using N.R.A. Ties https://nyti.ms/2BElHOf
If someone tells you that a thing you do causes harm, maybe take a second to think about that rather than jumping right into defending your right to keep doing the thing?

Particularly if the harm discussed includes contributing to a rise in hate crimes or other oppression?

—Rabbi Danya Ruttenberg
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RE: Treason Season??
#20
I'd say 'I'm surprised,' but to be honest?

I'm not.

Not because I believe the NRA to be traitors to the US, I don't, but because of how strongly aligned the NRA and the Republican Party are, how vulnerable to large sums of money the Republicans are, the importance of gun manufacturing companies to the US economy and how much money Russia can sling around if it wants to.
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RE: Treason Season??
#21
So... I'm starting to wonder if Donald J. Trump is a Russian intelligence asset.

First we have Rex Tillerson fired, the day after he makes a strong statement against Russia's nerve agent attack in Salisbury.  The timing could be unrelated, since we've been talking about him being out.  Although the White House says they had informed him the week before, Undersecretary of State Steve Goldstein said that no, Tillerson wasn't planning on leaving, and only found out by tweet that he was fired.  Goldstein was then himself fired.  Interesting.

Next, the talk of the town was that H.R. McMaster would the next to go from the National Security Director post, and that Trump had "made up his mind" that it was time for him to go.  This happened... one day after McMaster denounced the Russian attack using pretty standard diplomatic language.  And you start to wonder if there's a pattern here.

Andrew McCabe was fired today as Assistant FBI Director, because apparently he was too hard on Hillary during the election :'(.  Two days before his retirement date on Sunday.  I'm sure there was no political motive for this.  Nothing to do with him working on the investigation of Trump.

Oh, and if anyone's wondering about Defense Secretary Mattis... well, no one is talking about him all that much.  Despite the fact that he was on the board of directors for Theranos, where the CEO and President were both just arrested for fraud.  So while we've been talking about how the Trump presidency will be okay because there are "adults in the room", be aware that the adult supply is running very thin.
--∇×v⃑
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RE: Treason Season??
#22
(03-17-2018, 02:34 AM)Labster Wrote: ...
Andrew McCabe was fired today as Assistant FBI Director, because apparently he was too hard on Hillary during the election :'(.  Two days before his retirement date on Sunday.  I'm sure there was no political motive for this.  Nothing to do with him working on the investigation of Trump.
...
That was extremely petty of Trump ... and it removed any externally-imposed reason that McCabe might have had to not testify against Trump.

Lost his job? Already happened.
Lost his pension? Already happened.
Been fucked over by the person who would have preferred he not say anything? Already happened.

What's left to hold over him?
--
Rob Kelk

"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012


"Dont let anyone think for you; most people can barely think for themselves."
-
Rare Earth, "The Giants You Can't See from the Ground"
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RE: Treason Season??
#23
You're thinking about it backwards, Rob. It's not a message to McCabe. It's a message to everyone else in his administration, that he is willing to fuck you over if you step out of line. The bureaucracy will perform much better when in a state of constant fear, I'm sure.
--∇×v⃑
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RE: Treason Season??
#24
(03-17-2018, 02:06 PM)Labster Wrote: You're thinking about it backwards, Rob.  It's not a message to McCabe.  It's a message to everyone else in his administration, that he is willing to fuck you over if you step out of line.  The bureaucracy will perform much better when in a state of constant fear, I'm sure.

At this point, it's pretty clear your government's become a kakistocracy. The bureaucracy isn't supposed to function.
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RE: Treason Season??
#25
Trump and his administration have failed to realize something I think. Sure, a lot of the civil service are just in it for the paycheck, but there's a not to be disregarded chunk of the bureaucrats that joined up because they are idealists. And a lot of those guys rise to the top because they are driven by those ideals. And these ideals aren't political; their political stance influence it, but they're in it because they believe in the country they serve more than they believe in a given administration.

And these people?

They will receive that message and conclude 'fuck this administration, they're a threat to the nation's well being' and act accordingly.
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