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Well, now we know where the marriage "scorched earth" starts
Well, now we know where the marriage "scorched earth" starts
#1
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...in-church/

The basic gist of it is an attempt to replace 100% of the mentions in Missouri state law of "marriage" with "contract of domestic union". Including converting all marriages done in the state into "contract of domestic union", with the added idea that churches can choose if they report they've performed a marriage to the government.

The bill is a Death Star sized document. I can see several problems with it.

First: The idea that only a church can do a marriage. This is in part because marriage is a legal identity, with a lot of benefits attached to it through a large body of law, both common and explicit, while domestic/civil union doesn't have such.

Second: This is a deliberate and radical misalignment of state law from federal law. This potentially yanks out the rug from under anyone who's married in Missouri in terms of things like taxes and other Federal institutions. Doubly so with the attempt to make it 100% retroactive, which would at minimum annoy a lot of bureaucrats and lawmakers.

Third: I haven't even tried to find how they handle out of state marriages. Do they merely recognize them as "contract of domestic unions"? Or are they going to decide to no longer recognize such because the language no longer aligns?

I'm fairly certain the "marriage is only a church thing" is kind of a gimme for challenges, and is really intended to be struck down, with the hope that they can retain the "it's domestic unions now" and basically do the whole, "blame the gays, they're the reason we had to burn the whole legal framework to the ground."

I'm not saying this just as a problem because I'm in a same sex marriage right now... I'm also considering that my parents will be affected by this (45+ years, married in Missouri).

It's audacious, but I'm not surprised that someone's finally attempting to "take the marriage ball and go home", with little to no regard to HOW MUCH DAMAGE it will do to just about everyone in the state. And given that I'm not sure what the interactions are like legally, I'm thinking Missouri just added about ten years to my desire to avoid the place.
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
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RE: Well, now we know where the marriage "scorched earth" starts
#2
Refresh my memory, please: Which of your official documents establishes the separation of church and state?

Because it sounds to me like that particular document is being ignored here.
--
Rob Kelk

Sticks and stones can break your bones,
But words can break your heart.
- unknown
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RE: Well, now we know where the marriage "scorched earth" starts
#3
(01-24-2018, 07:50 PM)robkelk Wrote: Refresh my memory, please: Which of your official documents establishes the separation of church and state?

Because it sounds to me like that particular document is being ignored here.

That was why I made the comment about the "gimme". Basically offer up something that WILL get shot down on constitutional grounds, with the hope idea that the rest will be left in place.
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
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RE: Well, now we know where the marriage "scorched earth" starts
#4
Interestingly, it may not be necessary to bring up Church/state separation to get it bounced. If it's retroactive, that makes it an ex post facto law. And well,


Missouri Constitution Article I, Section 10 Wrote:Section 10. Powers denied to states.— No state shall enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation; grant letters of marque and reprisal; coin money; emit bills of credit; make anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts; pass any bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law impairing the obligation of contracts, or grant any title of nobility.

I grew up in Missouri, although I don't live there now. I had to pass a test on the state constitution in high school, and thought I remembered this clause.
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RE: Well, now we know where the marriage "scorched earth" starts
#5
The Dutch actually have a very simple solution to this problem.

The only marriage that's legally recognised is that provided by the government. You can get married in a church, you can get married before the church (authority), but unless you are married by a duly designated special officer of the state authorised to perform marriages that has no legal power and is in fact illegal. Especially if you then try to claim marriage benefits.

I expect that most clergy in the Netherlands are such officers, or if not that the couple first, quietly, signs the paperwork at townhall before going to the ceremony at church.
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RE: Well, now we know where the marriage "scorched earth" starts
#6
(01-25-2018, 05:57 AM)hazard Wrote: The Dutch actually have a very simple solution to this problem.

The only marriage that's legally recognised is that provided by the government. You can get married in a church, you can get married before the church (authority), but unless you are married by a duly designated special officer of the state authorised to perform marriages that has no legal power and is in fact illegal. Especially if you then try to claim marriage benefits.

I expect that most clergy in the Netherlands are such officers, or if not that the couple first, quietly, signs the paperwork at townhall before going to the ceremony at church.

That's actually what we're supposed to have. The government grants the licenses. Most clergy are duly authorized to perform marriages on behalf of the state (although given the current shenanigans in Missouri, I wonder if that should change and you have to bring in a state official separately from your clergy Dodgy ). At least in Colorado, you can sign the marriage license as part of the ceremony (you go and get the paperwork from the courthouse of whatever county you reside in prior to the ceremony), with a couple of witnesses, and then file it within a week or so. Or you can just go to the courthouse and do the paperwork ahead of time.
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
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RE: Well, now we know where the marriage "scorched earth" starts
#7
(01-25-2018, 08:10 AM)JFerio Wrote:
(01-25-2018, 05:57 AM)hazard Wrote: The Dutch actually have a very simple solution to this problem.

The only marriage that's legally recognised is that provided by the government. You can get married in a church, you can get married before the church (authority), but unless you are married by a duly designated special officer of the state authorised to perform marriages that has no legal power and is in fact illegal. Especially if you then try to claim marriage benefits.

I expect that most clergy in the Netherlands are such officers, or if not that the couple first, quietly, signs the paperwork at townhall before going to the ceremony at church.

That's actually what we're supposed to have. The government grants the licenses. Most clergy are duly authorized to perform marriages on behalf of the state (although given the current shenanigans in Missouri, I wonder if that should change and you have to bring in a state official separately from your clergy Dodgy ). At least in Colorado, you can sign the marriage license as part of the ceremony (you go and get the paperwork from the courthouse of whatever county you reside in prior to the ceremony), with a couple of witnesses, and then file it within a week or so. Or you can just go to the courthouse and do the paperwork ahead of time.

It's much the same in Ontario. The church ceremony, the ceremony in front of the Justice of the Peace, or no ceremony at all - they don't matter. What matters is completing the marriage license in front of witnesses.
--
Rob Kelk

Sticks and stones can break your bones,
But words can break your heart.
- unknown
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