Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#1
Reuters: Trump threatens to send military to border with Mexico

2400 National Guard troops are already deployed on the border.
--
Rob Kelk

Sticks and stones can break your bones,
But words can break your heart.
- unknown
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#2
(10-18-2018, 12:00 PM)robkelk Wrote: Reuters: Trump threatens to send military to border with Mexico

2400 National Guard troops are already deployed on the border.


With extremely limited rules of engagement.  So limited in fact that they are effectively only eyes and not allowed to stop the border crosses themselves.

Change the ROE and you will see a big change in usefulness.
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#3
(10-18-2018, 04:24 PM)Rajvik Wrote:
(10-18-2018, 12:00 PM)robkelk Wrote: Reuters: Trump threatens to send military to border with Mexico

2400 National Guard troops are already deployed on the border.


With extremely limited rules of engagement.  So limited in fact that they are effectively only eyes and not allowed to stop the border crosses themselves.

Change the ROE and you will see a big change in usefulness.

Sounds like you wanna just shoot 'em?

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#4
That is not what I said and you know it Dartz. :-(

The national guard troops are not even allowed to stop the border crosses when they catch them in the act, its basically being mall cops, observe and report, take no actual action.

Make it to where they can arrest the border crossers, which is breaking the law, and then throw them back across the border with prejudice, and the crossings will slow.
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#5
(10-18-2018, 08:47 PM)Rajvik Wrote: That is not what I said and you know it Dartz. :-(

The national guard troops are not even allowed to stop the border crosses when they catch them in the act, its basically being mall cops, observe and report, take no actual action.

Make it to where they can arrest the border crossers, which is breaking the law, and then throw them back across the border with prejudice, and the crossings will slow.

There are many very good reasons not to deploy the military for law enforcement duties. Including, if I'm not mistaken, Posse Comitatus laws that forbid it outside of declared emergencies.
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#6
(10-18-2018, 08:47 PM)Rajvik Wrote: Make it to where they can arrest the border crossers, which is breaking the law, and then throw them back across the border with prejudice, and the crossings will slow.

"With prejudice"?
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#7
(10-18-2018, 11:34 PM)hazard Wrote: There are many very good reasons not to deploy the military for law enforcement duties. Including, if I'm not mistaken, Posse Comitatus laws that forbid it outside of declared emergencies.

Y'know, I honestly thought that this didn't need to be said... Sad
--
Rob Kelk

Sticks and stones can break your bones,
But words can break your heart.
- unknown
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#8
(10-18-2018, 11:34 PM)hazard Wrote:
(10-18-2018, 08:47 PM)Rajvik Wrote: That is not what I said and you know it Dartz. :-(

The national guard troops are not even allowed to stop the border crosses when they catch them in the act, its basically being mall cops, observe and report, take no actual action.

Make it to where they can arrest the border crossers, which is breaking the law, and then throw them back across the border with prejudice, and the crossings will slow.

There are many very good reasons not to deploy the military for law enforcement duties. Including, if I'm not mistaken, Posse Comitatus laws that forbid it outside of declared emergencies.

If 4000 Hondurans marching on the border with the intent of crossing it against our wishes and laws doesn't count as an emergency then there isn't an emergency great enough for them at all. Posse Comitatus was put in place to keep troops from being used against OUR CITIZENRY not people bent on invading us for their own benefit. In fact if anything this defending our borders and nation which the military is explicitly there to do.

And by the remark "with prejudice" I meant that the fact that they crossed illegally is held against them in their application for entry.
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#9
(10-19-2018, 08:15 PM)Rajvik Wrote: If 4000 Hondurans marching on the border with the intent of crossing it against our wishes and laws doesn't count as an emergency then there isn't an emergency great enough for them at all.

There's only 4000 of them? Heck, we've had to handle at least double that many people crossing the border from the USA to Canada this year, and we never called it an emergency. Is the USA less capable than Canada in this regard?
--
Rob Kelk

Sticks and stones can break your bones,
But words can break your heart.
- unknown
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#10
Rob, I'm trying to be serious and stay calm with this and you are starting to anger me by making light of this. Your Americans coming to Canada are not coming;
A- enmasse
B- With clear disregard of your immigration or border laws,
C- With absolutely no marketable skills to help build up your nation

Please quit trying to bait me into an angry response,
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#11
National Guard spots them, tracks them, calls the local authorities in, provides medical assistance where needed, then they're taken and processed as quickly and humanely as possible to determine if their refugee claims are valid.

(It's this last bit my own country really fucks up and I write angry letters about.)
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#12
(10-19-2018, 10:42 PM)Matrix Dragon Wrote: National Guard spots them, tracks them, calls the local authorities in, provides medical assistance where needed, then they're taken and processed as quickly and humanely as possible to determine if their refugee claims are valid.

(It's this last bit my own country really fucks up and I write angry letters about.)

and what they should be doing is spot them, encircle them, capture them, then transport them to a normal port of entry, process them, and then put them back on the other side, with the data from their processing going to a database for when they file for entry its flagged.

Am i being an asshole about this, yeah some, but it is our country, and the more unemployable/minimally employable labor you have, the lower the wages in that area are going to be. Supply and demand is a real thing even for employers, and with there being apparently 7.1 million jobs out there and 6.1 million available bodies to fill the slots it an EMPLOYEES MARKET and allows you to negotiate for a higher wage.
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#13
(10-20-2018, 06:31 AM)Rajvik Wrote: Am i being an asshole about this

Honestly? Yes, you are. These people are risking their lives travelling across continents to seek safety for themselves and their children. You could make arguments about the validity of their claims, but instead you declare that they should be thrown out because they threaten your ability to negotiate for better wages. That is disgusting.
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#14
(10-20-2018, 06:31 AM)Rajvik Wrote: and what they should be doing is spot them, encircle them, capture them, then transport them to a normal port of entry, process them, and then put them back on the other side, with the data from their processing going to a database for when they file for entry its flagged.

Am i being an asshole about this, yeah some, but it is our country, and the more unemployable/minimally employable labor you have, the lower the wages in that area are going to be. Supply and demand is a real thing even for employers, and with there being apparently 7.1 million jobs out there and 6.1 million available bodies to fill the slots it an EMPLOYEES MARKET and allows you to negotiate for a higher wage.

Ehm actually?

No it's not.

You see, even if the employers have more jobs available than there's employees to fill them employers still have a massive, massive advantage in the US job market. Because they don't have to give any given qualified potential employee that job, but that potential employee does need that job because otherwise he's going to run out of money. The demand for jobs is far more inflexible than the supply of jobs because of this, which gives employers much more power in the job market than a simple demand/supply analysis would imply.

And this becomes considerably more pronounced if the employer is a large company, or a, if not the, major economic factor for a town. It's also not helped when there's an information discrepancy where employees don't know how much their colleagues get paid but employers know how much they pay their employees. Something that becomes more pronounced when employees can't or don't communicate about wages across their entire employment sector but employers do talk among eachother about the costs of their employees and the wages they pay. And again it becomes even more pronounced when employees are not unified when negotiating opposite a large company with a lot of personnel, which is very common because it lets the company leverage more of its economic power against each employee, potential and otherwise. It's divide and conquer applied to contract negotiations.
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#15
(10-19-2018, 10:20 PM)Rajvik Wrote: Rob, I'm trying to be serious and stay calm with this and you are starting to anger me by making light of this. Your Americans coming to Canada are not coming;
A- enmasse
B- With clear disregard of your immigration or border laws,
C- With absolutely no marketable skills to help build up your nation

Please quit trying to bait me into an angry response,

Okay, that does it. You have successfully baited me into an angry response.

I am sick and tired of you ignoring facts. You constantly parrot the Republican Party's spin, and ignore when actual evidence is presented that shows the spin is incorrect. And now you're claiming my response was "making light", which it most definitely was not, and then listed three "objections", each and every one of which is false.

You have drunk the kool-aid. You are not thinking for yourself. You are not examining the spin. You are a drone. You are a parrot. You are an unthinking lump that politicians know will mindlessly cast your ballot in one way no matter what happens.

I'm sick of it. Come back when you've figured out how to use your brain.
--
Rob Kelk

Sticks and stones can break your bones,
But words can break your heart.
- unknown
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#16
On the one hand, I'#ve been thinking the exact same thing.

On the other, I've been consciously holding off from just snapping

You gotta remember. The whole system, left and right, has been consciously reduced down to single-line shibboleths that don't require any level of thought. They just feel right. They're completely inarguable because they're blatantly vacuous - but that also renders them almost impossible to argue against because there is no thought behind them. There's just more and more of them, while any sort of clear argument needs some of of thought.

And then you're in a circle of people who feel the exact same way and that feels even righter.

I understood enough about why people supported Trump in the states to have the sense to place a bet on him to win - at 20/1 to boot. So I get it.

But you don't beat it by bopping people on the head and getting pissed off at them. That just makes them go away and go deeper into the circle of comfort and approval. It's like building up the polarity.

The only way to beat all this shit is to engage with people. It doesn't matter what side you're on because you're serving the real enemy just by dismissing the other. So long as everything remains so polarised there'll be no progress on anything and it'll just deadlock. That's the end hame - utter deadlock.

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#17
I've tried engaging. Many times, in this very subforum. It hasn't worked.

But since it has driven me to post in anger, I think I should stay out of this subforum for a while.
--
Rob Kelk

Sticks and stones can break your bones,
But words can break your heart.
- unknown
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#18
I agree with Rob on the engagement part here; some people are out there just to parrot their point of view and won't respond to any evidence otherwise, either because "you're all wrong and I need to show you", or they're just trying to rile people up and get a response.

My response was to try the report function when he started "bleeding" those views into posts elsewhere in the forum that aren't for Politics several weeks ago. I wound up directly messaging Bob to do the report, as it seemed like either my browser config or something else was breaking the button somewhere.

I actually added Rajvik to my ignore list a few days before heading off to Mile Hi Con this past weekend; Between the bleeding and his most recent posts here, I pretty much came to Rob's conclusion earlier that he's going to pretty much reject everything presented that doesn't at the least imply the Democrats are more than slightly worse than Republicans and the media too biased to trust when they even slight slant in the other direction. I'd already decided he just wasn't worth trying to interact with, but the last few posts here, I also decided he doesn't have anything worth reading anywhere on this forum either. His name is the only one on that list, in all my time being here, so that says a lot.

Ultimately, though, it's up to Bob if he's stepped over a line; if it were me, seeing Rob pissed off enough to respond in anger? I can't say I've seen him post anything in anger before, so it's definitely a notable event. I'd be asking Rajvik to take a break from the subforum and/or find another place to talk politics.

And this has now become a pretty serious derail in general.
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#19
Yeah, but it's not worth getting pissed off at people over the duckspeak. The whole point of the duckspeak is to be that irritataing to provoke the angry response. The whole point of these is to create that disengagement.

That's the stategery and everyone here is being manipulated by it.

Anyway, I make it a point of not having people on ignore unless they're legitimately brain dead or outright toxic.

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#20
Regarding the Hondurans....

No marketable skills? I beg to differ. They have a marketable skill that is eminently worthwhile: farm work.

And that's an area where we've been hurting.

And stealing jobs? What jobs are they gonna steal?

And really, if you wanna be hard up about this, let me present this: there are a number of trades that are in absurdly high-demand in this country. Good paying trades that you can get into with just a Highschool Diploma or a GED. Trades like plumbing, HVAC, electrical, welding, and so on.

This is what I would suggest. Purchase basic mobile homes - the ones that are bare-bones bunkhouses that meet the minimum standards of code, and cost something like $15,000 a pop. Put them in farming communities that need the extra hands. (Trust me, they want the extra hands no matter where they're coming from. They're not that picky.)

Have a program in place that when they're not busy working the fields - they're most-needed during harvesting, after all, and farmers can generally take care of most of the day-to-day stuff. During this off-time, they'll be learning English, and working towards getting a GED.

Have a few quid pro quos: 1) They have a limited amount of time to do this, though it should be reasonable. 2) They have one of two options available to them: either be willingly deported, or enroll into a vocational school for a high-demand blue-collar field. 3) If they DO learn such a skill/trade and become gainfully employed, then and only then can they begin the long process of becoming citizens.

These are all reasonable things, I believe. They require a minimum amount of investment. Yes, they'll need food and medical care. But they won't be getting it for free. They'll be working for it by doing jobs few Americans want. In the meantime, they learn valuable trades that can benefit the country because we just don't have enough of these people to go around.

And please, explain to me why doing the above would be a terrible thing, even if we do benefit in the long run?
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#21
Training to help immigrants provide for themselves and contribute to society. It's the sort of obvious I've seen pop up over here from time to time, only to get shouted down by One Nationand such.
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#22
Ah but Black, that'd be smart and cost money, something that certain people never want to be part of unless it benefits them directly.
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#23
Pfft. All they gotta do is go all 'Christian Values' and their re-elections are in the bag.
Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#24
BA, part of me wants to just throw my hands up at that, and you know what, i am

congratulations, i'm done until at least after the elections.

we'll see how things are after that
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

Reply
RE: Trump builds that wall ... out of troops
#25
Think of it this way: It's probably CHEAPER than sending National Guard to the border.

One month of active duty service, with hazard pay, plus other benefits like housing pay, subsistence pay... That shit will add up fast, especially considering that they're probably going to be sending in mainly E-4 and above - you know, the ones they can trust not to just shoot at the first thing that makes a sound.

And this is to say nothing of the logistics. Food, weapons, ammunition, vehicles... all the kit the US Army uses on a deployment. That's what's going to the border. And no amount of "Oh, but they're not gonna do anything" is gonna change that price tag.

So, it comes to this: either spend money for our troops to stand around in the desert with their dicks in their hands, or spend money training up a potential workforce to fill in jobs that have been horrifically high demand for more than ten years now.

Look, I get that you feel that we got an issue with employment and wages in this country. But you know what? The issue with that lays mainly in how corporations are regulated in this country. And if you want to have a Laissez Faire economy, then you had better be damn well prepared to be the lowest bidder in the labor market.

If your issue is with wages, then for fucks sake, treat the disease itself by calling on the government to raise the minimum wage to an actual living wage. God knows we need more people in this country that can actually pay their taxes and not just loan their money to the IRS for a few months. And you know what the best part is? For everyone that can pay their taxes, that's one less person that's on welfare, which means that it's less money our government has to spend on keeping Americans from dying in the streets.

Honestly, I say if we got four-thousand people coming to this country because they don't want to live in fear of having their throats slit in the night because the drug lord next door wants to use their land to grow more coke, then I say we take them in and make them into hard working, law-abiding, tax paying, patriotic members of this country.

Or, you know, you can just toss them back over the border and tell Mexico that it's their mess. But it's not. It's our mess because we're the idiots that were fucking didling around in their country in the name of Dollar Diplomacy. (Don't believe me? Look it up. This shit is just our own mess coming back to haunt us.)
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)