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Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#1
Some say, he was taken from an elephant - others, that bureaucrats file in his name... all we know is, he's not The Donald, he's The Donald's European counterpart. 

And he hath unleashed a statement upon twitter which has managed to say what everyone sane has been thinking these last few months/years, inflammed the red-tops across the UK and basically left half a continement going 'what'.

It's rare for a politician to let slip just how utterly fucking pissed off they are. Especially when the stakes are this high.

This is brilliant. 

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status...2293266435

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#2
Darts, you say that he has said what the sane have been thinking, and yet i look at the multitudes of follow ones that are pointing out issues that the British people (and I guess at least some politicians) have with staying with the EU. Have you stopped and contemplated the possibility that the Brexiters could be in the right on this?

I've said it before and will again, I am not there and am not as familiar with the issues as I should be to voice a rational and informed opinion. That said, is it in Britain's self interest to let someone who was against the idea of Brexit in the first place make your deal in getting out, or is she trying to sabotage the situation so as to make it hurt more so you go back?
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#3
If Britain was afraid of that their representatives should've ousted Theresa May much, much earlier or refused to work with her. That they haven't means they do not believe Theresa May has not offered the best possible job she could've in the interest of the British people.

But Donald Tusk has an excellent point. What idiotic government basically breaks dozens of treaties, all of which with considerable impact on their economy and government bodies, at the same time without first arranging alternatives. There is no Brexit plan. Some plans have been proposed, but Parliament has shouted and voted those down. Which means that if something isn't done in 50 days, either Britain begging the EU to cancel Brexit or implementing a plan the EU is willing to work with, a no-deal Brexit occurs.

And if Britain thought having to deal with the EU was bad while within it, they may find that any of the above 3 options much, much worse. If Britain asks the EU to cancel Brexit the EU might say no. It has that right. If it says yes, Britain will have burned a lot of its political capital in the past two years and it will take a decade or more to reclaim it. If it implements the EU's plan it basically capitulates to the EU, remaining part of many of the key treaties but now completely lacking in the ability to influence the EU's policy. And with a no-deal Brexit Britain will have to deal with the fact that most of its exports go towards EU trading partners. Which are now subject to customs checks, duties and tariffs. And the EU? Has a much, much larger internal market to work with to absorb any such disruption and refocus its trade on.
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#4
Hazard Wrote:What idiotic government basically breaks dozens of treaties, all of which with considerable impact on their economy and government bodies, at the same time without first arranging alternatives

One that thinks its been screwed over by said treaties and doesn't quite trust those in power to renegotiate them. One that thinks that maybe the EU doth protest to much about their need for Britain. I'm not saying they are right or even close, but it is a possibility that they could think that way.

Also, you assume that the Brits had no plan, maybe they did but it was one May knew she couldn't sell to the EU.
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#5
(02-07-2019, 02:41 PM)Rajvik Wrote: Darts, you say that he has said what the sane have been thinking, and yet i look at the multitudes of follow ones that are pointing out issues that the British people (and I guess at least some politicians) have with staying with the EU. Have you stopped and contemplated the possibility that the Brexiters could be in the right on this?

I've said it before and will again, I am not there and am not as familiar with the issues as I should be to voice a rational and informed opinion. That said, is it in Britain's self interest to let someone who was against the idea of Brexit in the first place make your deal in getting out, or is she trying to sabotage the situation so as to make it hurt more so you go back?

It's not about leaving the EU.

Sure. You want to leave, that's fine. It was always going to hurt but there's still a right way to do it.

It is the utter and unmanageable clusterfuck they have managed to make of it. It's gone beyond clusterfuck and into omnifuck. The UK is where it is, in short terms because it said it was leaving the EU. But still wanted all the benefits of being a member of the EU. They wanted tarrif-free access to the single-market, while not being required to abide by its rules. They wanted free movement throughout the EU, while being able to prevent EU citizens from moving to Britain. They wanted to leave the club, stop paying club dues - but still enjoy all the perks of membership,

Or how they approcahed the negotiation with a list of things they didn't want - but no idea what they did. Beyond the utterly and fabulously unworkable as if it was already a fait accompli. Or how the problematic Backstop had started out as their own idea, formed from a consequence of their own "red lines" and then just sort of became impossible after they agreed to it. Oh - and then they beheld themselves to a group of pig-ignorant racist apartheidist fucks from a backwater instead of letting them spin. 

The EU has all the problems you'd expect from a bureaucracy that's gown out of - basically - a free trade deal. It was never really meant to be a nation. It has a real hard time justifying itself or inflaming the national passion the same way a good old revolution and a lynched colonial government does.  It's still basically a really, really fancy trade deal and there's nothing really inspiring about that at first glance. It's not sexy so people don't engage with it.

But, I have found the EU to be nothing but a benefit in work. Shipping stuff from a continent away is trivial, because it's clear it complies with the exact same standards. It makes buying, moving and selling things effortless. It's as frictionless as shipping down the road. And often easier because Irish couriers are shite. And EU standards are rigorous enough to the point that they can become a defacto global standard, given how large the EU market is.

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#6
(02-07-2019, 03:23 PM)Rajvik Wrote: One that thinks its been screwed over by said treaties and doesn't quite trust those in power to renegotiate them. One that thinks that maybe the EU doth protest to much about their need for Britain. I'm not saying they are right or even close, but it is a possibility that they could think that way.

Also, you assume that the Brits had no plan, maybe they did but it was one May knew she couldn't sell to the EU.

When you have no plan that you can sell to the opposite side of the negotiations?

You have no plan.
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#7
(02-07-2019, 04:05 PM)hazard Wrote:
(02-07-2019, 03:23 PM)Rajvik Wrote: One that thinks its been screwed over by said treaties and doesn't quite trust those in power to renegotiate them. One that thinks that maybe the EU doth protest to much about their need for Britain. I'm not saying they are right or even close, but it is a possibility that they could think that way.

Also, you assume that the Brits had no plan, maybe they did but it was one May knew she couldn't sell to the EU.

When you have no plan that you can sell to the opposite side of the negotiations?

You have no plan.

Points at US shutdown.

Tell that to Nancy Pelosi
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#8
(02-07-2019, 07:30 PM)Rajvik Wrote:
(02-07-2019, 04:05 PM)hazard Wrote:
(02-07-2019, 03:23 PM)Rajvik Wrote: One that thinks its been screwed over by said treaties and doesn't quite trust those in power to renegotiate them. One that thinks that maybe the EU doth protest to much about their need for Britain. I'm not saying they are right or even close, but it is a possibility that they could think that way.

Also, you assume that the Brits had no plan, maybe they did but it was one May knew she couldn't sell to the EU.

When you have no plan that you can sell to the opposite side of the negotiations?

You have no plan.

Points at US shutdown.

Tell that to Nancy Pelosi

Trump couldn't sell his plan to Pelosi, or Pelosi couldn't sell her plan to Trump? Sorry, that isn't an "or" question; both clauses are equally true. In that case, neither side had a plan by this definition.

May did have a Brexit plan and did sell her plan to the EU... and so far the EU is holding her to it. It's her own side - the UK Parliament - that she couldn't sell it to.
--
Rob Kelk

"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012


"Dont let anyone think for you; most people can barely think for themselves."
-
Rare Earth, "The Giants You Can't See from the Ground"
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#9
Rob, you are assuming that the Brexit side didn't have their plan that the EU turned down, or that May maybe flat out refused to take to them. I can't say whether this is true or not, I'm saying its a possibility. I'm also giving May a very large amount of benefit here because Nigel Ferrage talking about her probably had a severe case of sour grapes at not getting the PM position in the wake of the Brexit vote. That said, she was (reported by biased source) very much against Brexit and fought it tooth and nail. I wouldn't have trusted her with the negotiations but I'm a paranoid ass when it comes to things like that.
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#10
I'm making no assumptions of any sort. I'm merely reporting what happened.
--
Rob Kelk

"Governments have no right to question the loyalty of those who oppose them. Adversaries remain citizens of the same state, common subjects of the same sovereign, servants of the same law."
- Michael Ignatieff, addressing Stanford University in 2012


"Dont let anyone think for you; most people can barely think for themselves."
-
Rare Earth, "The Giants You Can't See from the Ground"
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#11
It's been over 20 years since the last Quebec referendum on what we would now call Quebexit. I guess things got better after all.
--∇×v⃑
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#12
Rajvik, the whole thing with BREXIT was a dumpster fire from the word 'Go'.  There is simply no dressing it up.  The people that were pushing it wanted, as Dartz said, to leave the club and stop paying their dues, but still have all the benefits.

And you never addressed Dartz's rebuttal.

Maybe they had some idea of a plan.  But that plan has been squabbled over in the exact same way that the Republicans have squabbled over whatever the hell they're gonna replace 'Obamacare' 'Romneycare' with.

The thing is, they completely put the cart before the horse.  They did this referendum knowing full-well that, if it came back as being "For BREXIT", then they'd have to have a plan of action.  But they didn't have one.  At least, nothing that they agreed on.  And it doesn't matter how you slice it - if you don't have a plan of action in place before you actually need it, then you are plain and simply unprepared for what's to come.  QED.

Put it this way: do you just go and rob a bank without some kind of master plan?  Even "Go in, guns blazing, smash and grab, get the money and RUN!" is more of a plan than what Britain's parliament had - which was precisely NOTHING.  It didn't matter if one person had a plan, or if a thousand people each had a plan.  The issue was they didn't have a plan that they could agree on, and therefore there was no plan.

I mean, they literally were like this:

1) Cry and moan about how the EU is being unfair to them.
2) Vote BREXIT
3) ???????
4) PROFIT!

Literally.  That.

That's not a plan.  That's crying about losing your hand to the heavy machinery because you didn't have a goddamn lick of common sense.  (Which showed in and of the populace in general with the collective outcry of , "But I didn't think it actually mattered!" in the wake of the referendum.)

There was no plan.  Only vague ideas about a plan.  No more, no less.  End of story.
Yasuri Nanami is my number one waifu, if only because she would horribly murder all the others if they didn't shut up and toe the line.
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#13
My personal 'favorite' is the mess that is the Irish border. The EU wanted to keep current agreements in place as a backstop, with an option for it to be extended in the event no Brexit plan was put together. Britain refused to agree on an extension option, on the grounds that they were about to develop amazing new technology what would revolutionize border security forever. They had no idea what this technology was, or how it would work, but they assured everyone that it would be amazing. Two years later, said miracle technology has yet to appear.

If nothing else, it's a reminder to not base your plans around something that doesn't even exist yet.
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#14
(02-07-2019, 02:41 PM)Rajvik Wrote:  Have you stopped and contemplated the possibility that the Brexiters could be in the right on this?

Yes. Much like I contemplated if the Earth could really be flat, six thousand years old and that climate change is not being driven by human activity, that smoking does not cause cancer and evolution is a lie, that trans people are all sexual deviants and all black people are inherently lazy criminals because of the shapes of their skulls.

Then I did this thing were I learned that all these ideas are wrong and the people who have them are at best misinformed useful idiots and at worst outright inhuman monsters who want to follow in Hitler's footsteps. 

And for once in your life, don't make this about your precious baby man Trump and his tantrums. Brexit isn't about him. Brexit is Britain's own version of nationalist populist insanity. All the claims of the pro-Brexit side were either lies or misrepresentations and they always have been. The EU was not leaching the UK's power. It was the last gasp of potential for relevance for a tiny nation that is rapidly being out competed by larger and more unified economies.
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#15
BA, i didn't respond to Dartz's rebuttal because i took it as information, as i have said, i'm not there, and my one source on the subject is completely biased. i am asking questions and to a degree playing devils advocate here.

Epsilon, I'm not making this about Trump/Pelosi and the shutdown, i was merely using that as an example of how two sides could have equally (and arguably) viable plans that the other side would refuse to accept. it was a matter of point between Rob and myself. Also, try considering things that you don't believe in, else you might find yourself suckered in that echo chamber you believe is truth.
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#16
I'll let CNN Explain. They may be biased in the US - but they have no skin in this game.

The UK does not have a viable plan to leave the EU. It never had. And the people proposing the referendum moved forward with this knowing this was the case - they didn't know what the post- Brexit britain looked l;ike, beyond selling nostalgic images of The British Empire and All That.

Things would be grossly simplified by the simple expediant of placing the EU border in the Irish sea - it allowed the UK to leave, maintained the stability of the North, but one single small group of MP's is preventing that from happening. Early in the process British government attempted to strnegthen it's political mandate, and, in the end, hamstrung itself with a single-issue party - whose sole, single issue is preventing them from doing what's needed to make the process so much easier.

Ultimately led to May agrreing a deal with the EU that is more complicated that it needs to be, but is still a political dead-duck, because the only thing the UK parliament seems to be able to agree on is that they don't want that. When asked that they do want, they just sort of murmur and fudge and offer things like 'unspecified alternatives', without actually proposing alternatives. The alternatives proposed like 'a technological solution', fail to specify how that'll be implimented.

The UK is also held in place by the Good Friday Agreement and its legal obligations under that agreement, including the right of people from Northern Ireland to declare themselves to be British, Irish or Both. In theory, a hard border in NI wouild make Irish Citizens born in Northern Ireland immediate aliens in their own home. At worst, the border will lead to a re-emergence of the troubles and all that fun.

Furthermore, as far as the EU is concerned, having agreed the deal it is now up to May to make it happen politically. The deal was negotiated and done with the British government, and it is up to the British Government to enforce it. This was the same deal negotiated by the man who resigned immediately after negotiating it, such was his belief in it.

The crux of the difficulty is that a significant group still believes themselves to have the negotiating power of The British Empire with the ability to make demands and alter the deal. Instead it now has the negotiating power of an island. One with a strong economy, but one that is still relatively small compared to the EU. It has failed completely to realise that it has far less negotiating Power than the EU in this and that the EU can tolerate a no-deal scenario fare better than England can.

Even Ireland can ride it out. We're full food secure. Mostly fuel secure. And there is something of the expectation that the EU will have to stand by a member of the club - at least to make membership in the club worthwhile.

I for one, am enjoying this sort of final Gotterdammerung for the British Empire.

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#17
Then what it sounds like is that they have a handful of hardliners that refuse to negotiate at all. How is that handful holding up the process? Well that means its either not a handful (and the published results saying that its closer to 2/3rds) of parliament or else a handful that can pull that much of parliament to their side.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46885828
Look, I'm not saying they are right, I'm not saying whatever plan they may (or may not) have will work. Hell I'm not even saying they have a plan, they might honestly think that they have enough power economically to make the EU roll over. (Which yes is idiotic,) What I'm saying is that the E's plan isn't going to pass parliament, so maybe there needs to be little more give there.
Wolf wins every fight but the one where he dies, fangs locked around the throat of his opponent. 
Currently writing BROBd

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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#18
It's a coalition government. It'd happen in the US if there was a third party.

If there's 200 seats (for arguments sake) and the tory party has 110, and labour has 90 - then the Tory party makes the laws. But if there's a Third party - and say the Tories have 95, and Labour has 95, and the Monster Raving Looney Party has 10 - then suddenly the Monster Raving Looney Party has a lot more influence than its small seat allocation would suggest. It can collapse the government if it goesn't get what it wants and force a general election.

In this case, the coalition partner is a shower of racist, apartheidist extremists that're the Even More Extremist variant of the party that was responsible for the civili rights issues that triggered the Troubles in the North. They are the party which collapsed the devolved government in the North to avoid responsibility for setting up the 'Cash for ash' scheme (i.e., paying people more for energy generated by biofuel-fired boilers, than it cost to actually buy the fuel - while at the same time not checking to make sure the boiler wasn't being used to heat a tin-shed with the doors swung open). Their sole role in Westminster is keeping the North governed by Westminster (Except for certain matters like marriage and reproductive rights, among other things)

The problem the current government has is that Theresa May seems determined to cling on to power long after she should've gone so has gotten into bed with the DUP. And Jeremy Corbyn seems to be utterly inneffective and out of touch with his party base and is widely regarded as being utterly useless as an opposition leader who should be twisting the knife into the the government at every turn rather than being a piece of milk toast.

With regards to getting things to pass through parliament - the problem is Parliament cannot agree on what exactly it wants. There're groups that want a total break, groups that want a close alliance, groups that don't want to leave at all groups that want a Norway solution, groups that want a Canada solution, and another group who thinks its a really bad idea and they need to rethink, followed by the final group that thinks it's a bad idea, they needd to rethink - but rethinking would be bad for democracy. So when it comes up to asking what they want, they just sort of flabble and argue. The only thing they can agree on is what they don't want - even if the disparate groups are rejecting the solution for entirely different reasons. Which leaves them completely unable to decide on what they do want out of the deal....

So after 2 years of fucking around in circles, the EU has finally reached the point where it is saying a Hard NO. This is the Deal. Accept or Else.

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#19
Rajvik, the EU isn't going to give more to the UK. The EU, as an organisation, and all its members except the UK don't want the UK to leave. Being kind to the UK is not an option, it'd mean the entire EU would fall over. They've given what they're willing to give the UK. If the UK wants more its options are to remain in the EU, with all rights and duties that come with that, or accept that the EU, now in the position to decide whether or not the UK remains since the UK activated Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon, just shuts them out.

In the former case, they have to convince the EU that after spending more than two whole years negotiating their exit they're worth keeping, costing them no small political capital even as the EU is likely to remove most of the exceptions the UK has negotiated for itself as a member, or they get told 'that's nice, the line's over there, queue up.' With nearly the same result, except this time, they have to deal with several years to decades of being outside the EU as entry negotiations start all over.

And that's disregarding the possibility that Scotland might demand and receive another 'Leave or Remain in the United Kingdom' referendum, which was hotly contested last time and seems to have ended up with 'Remain' only because it'd have meant seeking entry into the EU after separating as a new member nation, and that Northern Ireland, however unlikely, might decide that joining with Ireland is the better option as in that case, they're no longer outside the EU and a number of very complex matters don't run the risk of coming violently apart.
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#20
Donald pays tribute to people who overthrew a Russian stooge-President.

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status...5794883584

A suggestion, America?

I love the smell of rotaries in the morning. You know one time, I got to work early, before the rush hour. I walked through the empty carpark, I didn't see one bloody Prius or Golf. And that smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole carpark, smelled like.... ....speed.

One day they're going to ban them.
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RE: Donald Tweets. All Hell breaks loose
#21
Dartz, that one was entirely about the Ukraine and you know it.
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