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Unintended consequences? Acting on incel ideology defined as terrorism
Unintended consequences? Acting on incel ideology defined as terrorism
#1
Back in February, a 17-year-old killed a woman at a massage parlour and attempted to kill two other people

This week, he's been charged with terrorism.

Quote:Police say they later determined the attack was inspired by incel ideology. Participants in the misogynistic online movement typically express frustration toward women over their own lack of sexual success, and sometimes threaten violence against them. Police classify it as an "ideologically motivated violent extremist" movement.

Ideological motivation is enough for a felony - in this case, murder - to be classified as "terrorist activity" according to the Criminal Code of Canada.


So...

"Defining incels as terrorists" is going to be tested in the courts - unless there's a plea bargain. I have no idea what outcome I want to see here... (Not that I'll have any say in determining the outcome.)
--
Rob Kelk

Since it's an election year in the USA: How to Immigrate to Canada, direct from the Government of Canada's website. "How you can immigrate to Canada, how to protect yourself from fraud and what to expect after you arrive in Canada."
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RE: Unintended consequences? Acting on incel ideology defined as terrorism
#2
Well, I hope Canada pushes it through to the courts and he ends up convicted of terrorism.

I mean, griping on the internet that you can't get laid is one thing. Murdering people because you can't get laid is something else entirely.


I'll note that it's important to remember that 'has an ideology often held by terrorists' isn't the same as 'is a terrorist'. There's plenty of people around holding ideologies that at one point or another were the core of terrorist movements. Islam is only currently the most blatantly present example of it. A rather sizable majority of people who hold an ideology do not support the use of violence and fear to further that ideology's goals.
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RE: Unintended consequences? Acting on incel ideology defined as terrorism
#3
I found this story from January 2019 about the mess that is incels.

Assuming the story is accurate - and CBC has had 16 months to make corrections to it if it wasn't - they're a bunch of misogynists who would rather put effort into figuring out how to rape and/or kill women than put effort into finding somebody who'd be willing to date them.

Now I know what outcome I want to see. Throw the book at this asshole.
--
Rob Kelk

Since it's an election year in the USA: How to Immigrate to Canada, direct from the Government of Canada's website. "How you can immigrate to Canada, how to protect yourself from fraud and what to expect after you arrive in Canada."
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RE: Unintended consequences? Acting on incel ideology defined as terrorism
#4
(05-20-2020, 05:11 PM)robkelk Wrote: I found this story from January 2019 about the mess that is incels.

Assuming the story is accurate - and CBC has had 16 months to make corrections to it if it wasn't - they're a bunch of misogynists who would rather put effort into figuring out how to rape and/or kill women than put effort into finding somebody who'd be willing to date them.

Now I know what outcome I want to see. Throw the book at this asshole.


Replace "put effort into finding somebody who'd be willing to date them" with "put effort into figuring out the real reason why 99% of women won't date them" and you're much closer to the mark there, I'm afraid.

Another side of it is the fact that, y'know, even those of us who like sex and wanna have it? We know full well we can do without it, if necessary for long stretches of time, and get a quality relationship out of the deal.

Otherwise, I'm with you. Throw the book at him, and make sure to wrap it up in barbed wire before throwing it.
"You know how parents tell you everything's going to fine, but you know they're lying to make you feel better? Everything's going to be fine." - The Doctor
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RE: Unintended consequences? Acting on incel ideology defined as terrorism
#5
I haven't been following the incels all that closely lately, but I did read Elliot Roger's manifesto back when he shot up IV.  Isla Vista is pretty close to home, so you know, I wanted to figure out what the hell he was thinking, and he generally started this whole movement with his attack.  Anyway, it's hard to say violence like this is not a political act, even though it's basically being perpetrated by people with some sort of mental problem -- most likely depression, but potentially others.  I think it's entirely possible to be sane and be a terrorist against an oppressive world power -- it depends on your point of view, but the oppression is definitely real.

Terrorism is a thoughtcrime.  It's purely about intent.  The intent of incel violence is clearly, clearly, to assert dominance over women, and to scare chads and staceys throughout society into submission.  It's a hate crime against women, and against "attractive" people.  It's almost certainly terrorism.

But that fact probably doesn't matter, because they are almost certainly insane.  And thus shouldn't get the standard punishments anyway.  If they were of sound mind they would do something like: (1) stop being a creep to actually attract women, or (2) pay for a prostitute, or (3) get a job and a real life friend, or (4) even trying the pickup artist bullshit which they totally hate for some reason.  Having a hot submissive girlfriend is not a human right, for fuck's sake.
"Kitto daijoubu da yo." - Sakura Kinomoto
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RE: Unintended consequences? Acting on incel ideology defined as terrorism
#6
Labster, clinical insanity and criminal insanity are two distinctly different things.

The first is a diagnosis that is specifically about how able you are at estimating reality's most likely outcomes and handling those outcomes. The judicial system does not touch these matters except for those cases where the patient is a threat to themselves and/or others, and in that case it's solely to ensure the proper mental healthcare is provided.

The second is an estimation of your ability to discern right from wrong. The fact that terrorists can define some form of right and wrong, no matter how divorced from anybody else's, rather than being incapable of discerning right from wrong makes criminal insanity an unlikely to be successful defense. If it were a successful defense, check the previous paragraph.
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RE: Unintended consequences? Acting on incel ideology defined as terrorism
#7
Isn't insanity an affirmative plea anyway, being "Yes, the defendant did it, but...?" It's not going to get you off the hook except for landing you in a shrink tank instead of death row, assuming the trial is even in a jurisdiction that has capital punishment and the prosecution is pushing for it to begin with. Isolating the perpetrator from society until they accept that what they did was wrong and reject the ideology that led to it is a far more thorough form of killing the criminal than death of the body, as they can't even be cited as martyrs to the cause by others with similar delusions. Of course, that does require a functional justice and correctional system, sooo... yeah. Sad
--
‎noli esse culus
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RE: Unintended consequences? Acting on incel ideology defined as terrorism
#8
Depends on the circumstances. It's usually an affirmative plea, but it's theoretically possible to argue for certain crimes that a specific form of insanity makes it impossible to commit a specific crime. Mostly we're talking about crimes where the reasoning behind the crime is more important than the action of the crime in that case.

That said, winning on a criminal insanity plea carries with it the inherent risk that even if you aren't going to end up in a prison, the judge is going to assign you to a mental health program whether you like it or not, and most likely in a closed institution. It's entirely possible to plea insanity for a crime with a relatively short sentence (say robbery) that would normally result in a few years in prison, and then win on that plea and be confined to a mental health institute for decades before you're released because the staff is satisfied you are no longer a risk to the general public. And that's if you are ever released.

As for the USA justice and correctional system... It's working exactly as intended from what I can see.
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RE: Unintended consequences? Acting on incel ideology defined as terrorism
#9
(05-21-2020, 06:25 PM)classicdrogn Wrote: Isn't insanity an affirmative plea anyway, being "Yes, the defendant did it, but...?" It's not going to get you off the hook except for landing you in a shrink tank instead of death row, assuming the trial is even in a jurisdiction that has capital punishment ...

Which this one is not. We haven't hung anybody in decades.
--
Rob Kelk

Since it's an election year in the USA: How to Immigrate to Canada, direct from the Government of Canada's website. "How you can immigrate to Canada, how to protect yourself from fraud and what to expect after you arrive in Canada."
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